Hmmm... Does this sound right to you?

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

There's someone posting on the bellydancevideos Yahoo group about wanting to create a series of instructional dvds on the AUTHENTIC dance. What are your initial impressions of this posting (the bold parts are mine, making note of specific things):


Greetings Listees,

I'm working on a series of instructional dvds in classical Egyptian
dance. From beginning stance to end floowork, and everything in
between (including arms). I won't be teaching props at all, just
the moves and how to break them down and how they all fit together.
I also will not teach choreography. I prefer you mix and match the
moves to create your very own dance, as the music and moods
influence you each time you dance. In other words, I don't want to
create clones of me, but individual artists instead. Just as you
see all Egyptian dancers are individual as they use the moves they
prefer and are good at, in the way they prefer to use them (fast,
slow, small, large, broken into tiny components of the moves, etc.).

We've worked up an outline for 10 1-hour videos, and there may be
one of two more when we've finished shooting these. There are about
70 moves in all (I mean FULL moves, not the broken up or made up
ones you've seen in most videos). I was privately instructed for
nearly 3 years, which cost me $10.00 per class back in the 1970's.
I missed a handful of classes during my instruction (less than 10),
so this added up to quite a lot of money my family and I paid.
Please keep this in mind with regards to your suggestions for the
cost of the dvds?

Finally, these dvds will not have distracting backgrounds or music.
They will be shot in the dance studio I've instructed in for the
past 5 years, with no "set dressing". Just the studio background.
Also, I will not be in a hip scarf or costume of any sort. I want
you to see what my feet and legs are doing. The majority of the
moves come from the feet and legs, so I have prepared my wardrobe to
help you focus on this. These dvds are straight up instruction. No
bull, no lit candles, no fluff.

The most important thing is this. These videos MUST be followed in
the order they are made. For instance, Beginning Level 1, Beginning
Level 2, Intermediate Level 1, etc., etc. If they are followed out
of order the dancer learning from them runs the risk of severe
injury, possibly permanent. In the final standing dvd (before the
first floorwork dvd) I am teaching what's commonly known as
the "Turkish" drop, and the small steps and exercises involved in
mastering this move. Those dancers who know about this move will
understand the importance of these dvds being followed IN ORDER.

So, with all of this in mind, here are my questions to you...

1) Would you be interested in a series like this, which teaches the
authentic classic Egyptian dance from A-Z (this is the SAME dance
that Lucy, Dina, Fifi, Tito, etal do. NO ballet or other influences
involved at all)?

2) Would you be able to follow the series in it's given order and
not try to skip ahead?

3) Would you take the recommended time mastering the steps in each
dvd before moving on to the next? I will give guide posts for each
move so you will know when you've mastered it, AND there will be an
online message board for any questions you have while learning,
which will be answered by me personally. The message board will be
accessable to anyone online.

4) Would you be willing to pay $30.00 per dvd? (The costs of my
producing this are high, so I'm not trying to rip anyone off, just
break even)

5) Have you ever seen a series like this?

6) What is your biggest beef about instructional dvds/videos you've
previously seen and/or purchased?

7) Ideas, suggestions, etc, please?

Thank you so very much for your time in reading this, and any input
you may offer.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Instruction

Dear Aziyade,
Like you said "Hmmmm". Who is the dancer that posted the ad or whatever it is?
That part about not using any music is especially... Hmmmm-ish.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I'm not sure I've seen the Turkish drop done in "classical Egyptian dance."

I keep thinking there are some movies where they drop to the floor, but I can't remember if those are actual Egyptian movies, or just old movies I've watched.

And can you really separate ALL the ballet out of modern Egyptian dance? I can understand not teaching the footwork a la Reda and Mo Geddawi, but even Dina does little Arabesques (albeit not like a ballerina).

Something doesn't track right with this post.

Here's something else she just posted, again bold is mine:

Holy moly, I sure didn't expect all these awesome responses to this
post! Wow, Ladies, thank you SOOOO much!!!

Tatiana, I'm very grateful for your ideas here. The music is a bit
of a bone of contention between my lead dancer (who's going to be in
the dvds with me) and myself. Nothing major, just that she wants
the music and I'm not so sure just yet. In class I turn the music
wayyyyy down so I'm not yelling at my students. lol Still, I think
you and her are probably right about there should be some music in
the background. I would so love to have George Abdo or Umm Kulthum
in the background, so I'll do my best to obtain their
representative's permissions to use their music for this series.

I can almost guarantee you've never seen instruction like this.
I've watched nearly 100 dvds in the past few years (some from my
students, some from the library, some I've bought, etc.) and have
yet to see anyone teach the footwork properly. It seems that just
no one wants to teach it, or no one knows it outside Egypt? I
really don't know? I just haven't seen anyone teach it.

For instance, a basic move most people call the "Egyptian walk" is
pretty much all in the feet. Just do the wedding march with a
slight forward hip movement on the leading foot before stepping
forward. Really easy, so long as you keep the balls of your feet
parallel with each other when you do the hip movement. The extra 2
movements in your backside (the sways back and forth) come from
gravity and relaxing your muscles in the backside. So it "appears"
that the dancer is pushing the hip back and forward, when this is
simply not the case. The movements come naturally, just gravity
taking over with the simple forward hip movement on the leading
foot's hip, and the natural sway from walking after setting the foot
down again. Like, if you throw a ball up it's gonna come back down
by itself. Now, if you tighten that move up really good and fast,
and do it in place, it's a 3/4 shimmy. Egyptian dance is really
easy at it's core. It just looks hard because most people don't
know the mechanics of it. If you can walk, you can dance. I've yet
to see anyone on a dvd/video who teaches this. And so far none of
the Egyptian dancers seem to want to share. lol

I'm really happy to read you would follow these in order. The steps
are in an order for many reasons. First off, as another poster
mentioned, you have to walk before you can run. Another reason,
most of the moves tie in with each other in an intricate way. Like,
above, where you would never be able to do the shimmy if you hadn't
learned the walk already. Yet another reason is the muscles you'll
build as you follow in order. I have some VERY weird muscles in my
knees, shoulders, and over my hips that developed from the dance.
They support my joints. Without these muscles being a bit built up
and worked, you can hurt yourself doing more advanced moves before
your body's ready. I'm very happy you are willing to follow in
order, and sincerely hope everyone will. I would hate for a dancer
to ruin herself trying to jump ahead.

Thank you for the feedback on not having seen a series like this
before. I've looked at a lot of the dvds out there, but am
certainly no expert on everything that's available. :O This
question was one of my biggies. Thank you.

Yes, yes, yes! The choreography is certainly not pertinent to true
Egyptian dance. An Egyptian dancer is all about freestyle. The
steps fit together like universal puzzle pieces, so there's no need
to choreograph. Well, a troupe may wish to, for obvious reasons,
but an individual dancer should never have to worry about it past
possibly, "Gee, what move do I feel like doing next?" while they're
dancing. I have an excellent track record as far as safety goes.
So far, in 30+ years of dancing, I've never hurt myself. Dancing,
that is. lol None of my students have either. I really pride
myself on that. The dance should never hurt you. It should
strengthen your body, not hurt it.

Thank you so much, again. You've given me some great advice and the
music...yes, I think my lead dancer will win that argument. lol
Hope you're having a lovely weekend.

 

[Moon]

First things that come to mind:

- Isn't 3 years of lessons way to short to start teaching?
- Is a Turkish drop really classical Egyptian style?
- I never saw Lucy, Dina, Fifi or Tito do a Turkish drop (did I miss something?)
- And I think Classical Egyptian style does have some ballet influence.
- no music?????????

edit after reading Aziyades 2nd post: I don't understand her description of the Egyptian walk. Hips swaying back and forth? That sounds more like some salsa move.
And I thought she took 3 years of lessons and has been teaching for 5 years. What did she do during the other 22 years? Or is she talking about other dance styles? huh??

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Her name is Tegan Ollie.

Anybody know her?

 

[Aisha Azar]

DVDs

Her name is Tegan Ollie.

Anybody know her?

Dear Aziyade,
After reading more, I reiterate, "Hmmmm".
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Okay, I'm being a jerk, but here was my reply to the group. Her original comments are in italics My response is in normal type.



Re: Your Dream Video?

Okay, I'm going to be the stick in the mud for a second here.


> I'm working on a series of instructional dvds in classical Egyptian
> dance.

Everybody has their own opinion on what exactly IS the "classical"
Egyptian dance. I thought Shareen el Safy did a good job explaining
what SHE thought made up the "golden age" style of Egyptian dance, so
I would expect the instructor on this dvd to explain what "Classical
Egyptian dance" is to her, and compare and contrast it to modern
Egyptian dance.



> There are about
> 70 moves in all (I mean FULL moves, not the broken up or made up
> ones you've seen in most videos).

I think you might have a hard time selling this concept -- I'm not
sure how many people would agree on what is "made up" and "broken up."
The instructor would have to have some SERIOUS standing in the dance
community to get something like this accepted. Any time you start
talking about the "real" or "authentic," you open yourself up to
criticism from others who claim to teach the "real" and "authentic" --
and it might be different from yours!


SIDENOTE TO A'ISHA -- you only had 10 moves. Looks like you need to make 7 more DVDS!



> I was privately instructed for
> nearly 3 years, which cost me $10.00 per class back in the 1970's.

I'm not sure this applies, as I'm not sure that you would be the
instructor on the dvd, but I think Egyptian style as was understood in
the 1970's is VASTLY different from Egyptian style today. I think of
students who studied the style of Nadia Hamdi versus students of
Dina's today, and I see a world of difference. This MAY OR MAY NOT
matter to anybody. Just a thought.


> Finally, these dvds will not have distracting backgrounds or music.

I'm confused -- are you saying the instruction will not be done to
music? I'm having a hard time understanding why, of ALL the styles,
someone would want to try to teach Egyptian without using music. To
me, that's like trying to teach someone to swim without using any water!


> In the final standing dvd (before the
> first floorwork dvd) I am teaching what's commonly known as
> the "Turkish" drop,

I can't stress enough that I think the above is a bad idea.

I can tell you right now that students will pick and choose the dvds
they want. Most students who have been dancing a while will NOT spend
the money on what they perceive to be a beginner level dvd.

FWIW, I think only a qualified teacher should teach some things, and
then only in person. The modified Turkish Drop, I SUPPOSE could be
taught on dvd, but I would be leery of it.



> So, with all of this in mind, here are my questions to you...
>
> 1) Would you be interested in a series like this, which teaches the
> authentic classic Egyptian dance from A-Z (this is the SAME dance
> that Lucy, Dina, Fifi, Tito, etal do. NO ballet or other influences
> involved at all)?


First of all, I'd have to know A LOT about the instructor and she'd
have to have good standing in the community. I would have had to see
her dance quite a bit before I would "trust" that she knew what she
was talking about. Does that make sense?

There are hundreds of self-proclaimed "experts" out there making
videos and teaching workshops. If the instructor was Shareen el Safy,
Tamra Henna, Bahaia, Saida, Zahra Zuhair -- somebody like that I would
trust to know what she was talking about and I would trust her videos
would be top-notch as far as instruction.

But I still would have to have some things clarified for me. I would
personally argue that Lucy and Dina definitely have ballet/ballroom
influence. I'm not sure that you can say Egyptian dance today is
WITHOUT ballroom/ballet influence because it played such a big part in
the dance as we knew it in the "golden age" which evolved into Modern
Egyptian.

So would these videos be more Raqs Baladi or Raqs Shaabi than Raqs
Sharqi? While I think there's certainly a market for Shaabi and
Baladi instructional dvds, the majority of interest seems to be in
Raqs Sharqi and theatrics, and the use of a large stage. I would
expect the instructor to give instruction on BOTH the nightclub style
performance, and also the stage performance -- how they differ and
what would be appropriate for what. That kind of thing.

One thing Shareen el Safy does is shows you the more "folk" version of
a movement, explaining this might be how Fifi would do it, and then
shows you the Oriental version the way Soheir Zaki might do it. I find
this kind of info REALLY valuable, since sometimes the music has
"folky" sections where the typical Oriental stylization doesn't fit
right, so you have the "folky" version of the move to choose from.

Now if you're talking about no ballet/ballroom/jazz stage-covering
footwork, a la Reda and Mo Geddawi, then that's perfectly wonderful.
I'm not the only one of getting tired of seeing too much footwork in
modern Egyptian dance instruction !



> 2) Would you be able to follow the series in it's given order and
> not try to skip ahead?

No. I would skip to what I didn't recognize.

I've studied over 300 different videos and dvds, read all the extant
"textbooks" on Oriental dance and tried to study with those people who
have developed their own styles or their own techniques. With rare
exceptions, the instruction is the same -- albeit there are tiny
subtleties (like use of the lower belly on circles and figure 8's)
that give certain dancers a characteristic look, and of course modern
Egyptian style has a different sense of what muscles drive the
movements than American Cabaret style, but inside each specific
"genre" the instruction is the same. The vocabulary differs, but the
instruction is the same. Just my experience, and I've LOVE to hear
from others who disagree!!



> 3) Would you take the recommended time mastering the steps in each
> dvd before moving on to the next? I will give guide posts for each
> move so you will know when you've mastered it,


The guideposts thing is a good idea, but ultimately most students
THINK they have mastered something long before they actually have.
It's usually only when they get around to adding a shimmy to the
movement that they realize they haven't actually mastered it. Or when
they see themselves on video. Some STILL are convinced they've "got
it" when they don't. As a teacher, I still can't figure out how to fix
that one!



> 4) Would you be willing to pay $30.00 per dvd? (The costs of my
> producing this are high, so I'm not trying to rip anyone off, just
> break even)

Probably not. $30 for one hour is too much, especially when you're
talking about 10-12 volumes. Make them 2 hours, with lots of bonus
performances of what you're teaching on that particular dvd, and then
I think it would be worth it.



> 5) Have you ever seen a series like this?

Oh yeah -- it's an old concept:

- Serena Wilson's 4-volume Bellydance series
- Shareen el Safy's 5-volume teachniqe series (before the choreo vids)
- Veda Sereem's 20-volume (?) series "Quality of Bellydance"
- Hadia's 6-volume Raqs Esharqi (actually 5 volumes)
- Jamila Salimpour Archive series (4 volumes)
- Habiba's Quickstart to Bellydance (for beginner/intermediate)
- Cory Zamora's dvds (are there 8 of them?)
- Delilah's Visionary Bellydance system (5 dvds now?)
- Alexandra King's 4-volume Ancient Art of Oriental Bellydance

Those are what I can think of off the top of my head.



> 6) What is your biggest beef about instructional dvds/videos you've
> previously seen and/or purchased?

Rehashing of the same things, over and over again. In my opinion, if
you're going to produce an instructional dvd, take a new angle with
it, or show us something we HAVEN'T seen done before, or done better
by another instructor.


> 7) Ideas, suggestions, etc, please?

Well, I doubt this is the angle you're going with, but I personally
would LOVE to see an instructional based around the folkloric steps
and how they were Orientalized, or how to add folkloric steps from
different cultures into your debke, Saudi dance, Orientale routine --
whatever. Shareen el Safy does this a bit, but I'd love to see more,
especially with non-Egyptian dances. I've learned a LITTLE from Greek
and Spanish and Lebanese instructors, but it's such a wide open field
that I'd love to see a video on it. Just me.

Who's the instructor??? You've got me curious -- I'd love to see her
(I assume it's a her!) dance and see if this would be a series I'd be
interested in investing in!!

Amanda

 

[sedoniaraqs]

Three whole years of classes? I'm SO impressed.

This reminds me so much of my college students, who come in complaining that they did so poorly on an exam. "But I studied the night before for three whole hours!" This for an exam that covers 4 or 5 weeks of 3X per week lectures and a weekly 2 hr lab.

It sounds to me like this woman doesn't even know her market. There are a number of good video series dedicated to teaching Oriental dance beginning through advanced, plus multifacets of the dance movement, improvisation, culture, music, props, dancing in clubs, etc: Shareen el Safy, Yasmina Ramzy, Keti Sharif, Hadia, etc. Wonder if she's seen any of these?

No distractions like music? Clueless.

Sedonia

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Oh it gets better -- check out the yahoo group
bellydancevideos

She has issued her rebuttal, and she's dismissing Shareen el Safy as a REAL Egyptian style instructor because she once took class with Jamila Salimpour.

She hadn't HEARD of Shareen of course, but looked her up on the internet.

Thing is, people like this actually DO manage to sell a few videos and confuse people. I should make my own instructional series. I have good rep here and on Bhuz. I'm going to call it "Everything you need to know about Egyptian style dance and everyone else is WRONG!" Why not jump on the bandwagon like other people?

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

Hey Aziyade, it is really cool how you interact with this woman, who tries to convince people that she is an expert on "Classical Egyptian Dance", while she very obviously has no idea of what she is talking about. I wonder what makes people so impudent that they try to "sell" something they are not and they cannot do. Cheating people was possible in older times, when the world was still big and unmanageable. At those times you claimed to be something and nobody could check out (I'm thinking of some famous anthropologists at the end of the 19th century who wrote huge books about certain cultures, but haven't ever left their own country:lol: Today those books are rather a joke than scientific work), but today, in the time of Internet and mass media, the world has become veeeery small. You cannot fake anymore, especially if you are trying to reach people via Internet. So I'm really amazed how stupid some people are and try to fake although they have no chance. But maybe this lady doesn't even try to fake. I think that she simply has only half-knowledge, which is lot worse of having no knowledge. She obviously believes that she is an expert on classical Egyptian dance, because she knows some things and she doesn't realize, that what she knows is only a tiny part of the whole.
For me there were two very disturbing things in her descriptions:
a) teaching movements without music:shok: Hello? The harmony between movement and music is THE essence of the Arabian dance. You express the music with the body. So how the hell can you teach to dance the Arabian way without music?
b) Floor work. It almost doesn't exist in the Arabian belly dance. Well, there are some older videos with Egyptian + Lebanese dancers doing it, but generally it is frowned up in the Arabian world.
Anyway, are there any videos of this fabulous dancer in youtube:lol:? If yes, post some

 

[yasmindiab]

Her name is Tegan Ollie.

Anybody know her?

I think I know her, actually...I think she is one of my "friends" on tribe.

(I don't know her personally, we were talking a lot over a thread, and she sent me a friend request...she seems nice enough...)

I'll have to do some research when I get off work, because I can only access certain parts of tribe while I'm at work...

It sure is interesting though...I wonder if she's posted anything on tribe about this, if its the same person....

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

You know ordinarily I would leave something like this alone, to die a quiet death, but I've had my fill of self-proclaimed "experts" who can't show me any evidence of their expertise!

I don't know hardly anything about Greek music and dance, so I defer to you, Chryssanthi and Maria to help me with it because you two have PROVEN your knowledge time and time again. I defer to A'isha on all matters Saudi cause she's PROVEN her knowledge. A'isha doesn't claim to be any expert on Tribal, so she defers to Sharon -- who again has PROVEN her knowledge of the subject.

From everything this "Tegan" woman has posted, I seriously DOUBT her expertise in Egyptian dance, and now that she's resorted to name-calling and insulting well-respected teachers and dancers, I think this just proves my point!

Her "bio" is laughable:

"I've been an Egyptian dancer since 1977. I was privately trained for nearly 3 years in the classical form of Egyptian dance by Maria Archer, who was instructed from childhood on in Egypt. I am Persian from my Grandfather's side,"

So Maria Archer got to go to "bellydance school" in Egypt as a little girl? Um, yeah, right. Cause there were so many!!

 

[yasmindiab]

You know ordinarily I would leave something like this alone, to die a quiet death, but I've had my fill of self-proclaimed "experts" who can't show me any evidence of their expertise!

I don't know hardly anything about Greek music and dance, so I defer to you, Chryssanthi and Maria to help me with it because you two have PROVEN your knowledge time and time again. I defer to A'isha on all matters Saudi cause she's PROVEN her knowledge. A'isha doesn't claim to be any expert on Tribal, so she defers to Sharon -- who again has PROVEN her knowledge of the subject.

From everything this "Tegan" woman has posted, I seriously DOUBT her expertise in Egyptian dance, and now that she's resorted to name-calling and insulting well-respected teachers and dancers, I think this just proves my point!

Her "bio" is laughable:

"I've been an Egyptian dancer since 1977. I was privately trained for nearly 3 years in the classical form of Egyptian dance by Maria Archer, who was instructed from childhood on in Egypt. I am Persian from my Grandfather's side,"

So Maria Archer got to go to "bellydance school" in Egypt as a little girl? Um, yeah, right. Cause there were so many!!

I think this is the same woman from tribe...she told me a story once on tribe about her teacher kicking a girl out of her "semi-private" class because she did a movement that was "Greek, and NOT Egyptian." She also said that her teacher yelled at her to NEVER do that move again.

Hmmm...interesting.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

She's "Chenum" on Tribe.


Hey, if she's legit, I'll definitely get her dvds, but I do think it's rude to insult other instructors, so that would make me think twice about her personally. I don't see the need to insult other professionals just to make your OWN self look good, you know?

 

[yasmindiab]

Yup, thats her.

I understand completely...I think she's out of line insulting other professionals...ESPECIALLY if she hasn't even seen them dance. No, you don't have to like every professional...there are lots out there who aren't my cup of tea, but you know, I don't go around slandering them.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Professional etc.

Yup, thats her.

I understand completely...I think she's out of line insulting other professionals...ESPECIALLY if she hasn't even seen them dance. No, you don't have to like every professional...there are lots out there who aren't my cup of tea, but you know, I don't go around slandering them.

Dear Group,
I have no issue with saying disparaging words about teachers or dancers who claim to be something they are not, even when they are well known and respected. For example, I make no bones about how I feel about what the BDSS is doing. But, I think the difference is that I have studied for more than 3 years, and I also have plenty of good things to say about dancers that are doing justice to dance. I also have no issues with telling about my own experiences with teachers, for good or bad. However, as a person who has been attending classes for 33 years and teaching for 30, I feel that I have some qualifications for judging what is good and bad. I did not merely take classes 30 years ago for 3 years and consider myself an expert.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[sedoniaraqs]

She has issued her rebuttal, and she's dismissing Shareen el Safy as a REAL Egyptian style instructor because she once took class with Jamila Salimpour.

Clueless.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

For example, I make no bones about how I feel about what the BDSS is doing.

Yes, but as I recall, you've actually SEEN the BDSS show, or at least the dvd.

However, as a person who has been attending classes for 33 years and teaching for 30, I feel that I have some qualifications for judging what is good and bad. I did not merely take classes 30 years ago for 3 years and consider myself an expert.

Yeah, AND you make public your ideas and back them up. Are there only 10 categories of movement in Egyptian dance? You said so, and made a video to illustrate it. I've not seen the video (and therefore can't comment on it) but I've read your article on the subject, compared it to what I've experienced and witnessed, and acknowledged -- at the VERY LEAST -- that I agree more with you than with someone who says there are 70 movements. I can see where you're coming from, even if I don't agree. (Not saying I don't agree -- just saying that I can at very least see where you're coming from.)

I have NO idea where this person is coming from. She's talking about how the "flutter" is incorrectly taught as a rib lift.

????

Who is teaching a "flutter" as a rib lift? More importantly, who is teaching a flutter OR a Turkish drop/extensive floor work as part of Egyptian dance???

Nobody I've ever seen...

 

[Ranya]

I've read her post...and this is really outrageous. I've been learning oriental dance for 4years now - never would I have thought I have enough knowledge to teach more than beginner class! and just as Moon pointed out - when learning for 3years and teaching for 5...where has she been? if performing, than where? does she have a website? videos? pics? anything...
Aziyade I think you just wrote the right think in your responses to her, but unfortunately, she will always be able to fool at least some people. :S

 

[Farasha Hanem]

*struggles inwardly with self* Must...not...be...a smartaleck...must...be...nice... :wall:

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wowww... three whole years of lessons, huh? :think: Geez, I tried learning by myself for six whole years with DVD's, and have had 5 lessons; maybe I ought to think about marketing my own bellydance instructional DVD's...oh, that was just plain rude, bad Farasha! Bad! :naghty: *hits forehead repeatedly on edge of comp desk for giving into her darker side* :wall: ray: