Bellydance and burlesque

Brea

New member
All right, I'm opening up this can of worms again. Yesterday I was in a bookstore reading a history book called "Horrible Prettiness" about the history of burlesque. According to this book, and other sources I have read, Little Egypt was the beginning of bellydance being involved in burlesque. At that time the dance was called the 'cooch' or 'hoochie-coochie'. Eventually with all the competing acts it started to become more raunchy and less variety show, and then the shows started having their 'cooch' dancers or bellydancers start taking clothes off. So basically according to this book bellydance is the forerunner of the striptease, much like vaudeville burlesque was the forerunner of the strip show.

I also picked up a book called 'Belly Dancing' by Pina Coluccia, Anette Paffrath, and Jean Putz. There is a great deal of silliness about the Mother Goddess/Great Goddess in there. Although I do admit I like how they focus on sexuality being a very important part of the dance, and talk (if all too briefly) about male bellydancers.

I often wonder how to dispel the goddess myth, as so many people nowadays tend to see the Goddess everywhere, even where she wasn't (such as Ireland or Scotland). In fact there are allegedly no cultures that are truly 'goddess' based...many pantheons but no one female deity. Anyway I'd really like to know how to dispel this myth with bellydance as well as with the Celtic and Pictish histories if anyone has any suggestions. I'm also curious to know what everyone thinks of the history of bellydance as it relates to striptease...this may be why so many people assume we are strippers, or similar.

-Brea
 
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Suheir

New member
I see one of our UK belly dance suppliers is now selling a Burlesque instructional DVD: Aladdins Cave PFDVD05

"Princess Farhana will teach you to strut like a showgirl and vamp a la Gypsy Rose Lee in the retro strip tease style" - how can we complain being labelled as strippers when we're blatantly allowing the connection ourselves?

So a belly dancer also performs Burlesque - why does a belly dance supplier need to sell this DVD? There's a Danish belly dancer who's also an airline pilot, if she produced an instructional DVD on how to land a 747 would they also stock that?

This is an interesting article and comments:


Guardian Unlimited: Arts blog - theatre: Stripping away the myths of burlesque
 

lizaj

New member
All right, I'm opening up this can of worms again. Yesterday I was in a bookstore reading a history book called "Horrible Prettiness" about the history of burlesque. According to this book, and other sources I have read, Little Egypt was the beginning of bellydance being involved in burlesque. At that time the dance was called the 'cooch' or 'hoochie-coochie'. Eventually with all the competing acts it started to become more raunchy and less variety show, and then the shows started having their 'cooch' dancers or bellydancers start taking clothes off. So basically according to this book bellydance is the forerunner of the striptease, much like vaudeville burlesque was the forerunner of the strip show.

I also picked up a book called 'Belly Dancing' by Pina Coluccia, Anette Paffrath, and Jean Putz. There is a great deal of silliness about the Mother Goddess/Great Goddess in there. Although I do admit I like how they focus on sexuality being a very important part of the dance, and talk (if all too briefly) about male bellydancers.

I often wonder how to dispel the goddess myth, as so many people nowadays tend to see the Goddess everywhere, even where she wasn't (such as Ireland or Scotland). In fact there are allegedly no cultures that are truly 'goddess' based...many pantheons but no one female deity. Anyway I'd really like to know how to dispel this myth with bellydance as well as with the Celtic and Pictish histories if anyone has any suggestions. I'm also curious to know what everyone thinks of the history of bellydance as it relates to striptease...this may be why so many people assume we are strippers, or similar.

-Brea


We are talking American Bellydance here. I don't think Burlesque ever happened in Egypt?

It's only more recently in history that any entertainers have been thought of "respectable". In the West we may now rever actors and singers and dancers of talent, 200 years ago they were "from the gutter".
In the ME , performing in public is surely a big no no for most and belly dance there for some is still linked with the sex trade. I would have thought only the most successful perfomers are secure in admiration rather than censure and lower down the scale, girls who dance may also ply another trade to make a living just as ballet dancers did in the West centuries ago.
 

Brea

New member
You're right; I should have pointed out that I meant 'the involvement of bellydance in AMERICAN burlesque'...however, this is apparently how striptease got its start as a show, at least according to these history books.

-Brea
 

cathy

New member
One of the first times Middle Eastern dance was displayed for the public in the United States was when Sol Bloom brought a group of dancers to the Chicago World's Fair in 1893. Later in his memoirs he wrote:

---------------
It is regrettable -- of, if anyone should choose to disagree, it is at least a fact -- that more people remember the reputation of the danse du ventre than the dance itself. This is very understandable, When the public learned that the literal translation was "belly dance" they delightedly concluded that it must be salacious and immoral. The crowds poured in. I had a gold mine.

--------------

I know others on this forum disagree with the idea that the name "belly dance" was coined by Sol Bloom on this occasion and that the name "belly dance" has in itself negative connotations. But I think it's clear that whatever the origin of the name, Sol Bloom the businessman intended to profit from encouraging the public to associate it with the exotic and salacious.

We are still trying to overcome this association to this day. Cathy
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
see above -- EXACTLY!

Plus, it didn't help that in the formative years of bellydance in the US, if you went to many of the nightclubs, the dancers were wearing pasties and skirts split up to there -- because the nightclub owners also knew sex sells. So you try to point out that bellydance isn't about sleaze, and some guy shows you the old album cover to "Music of the African Arab" or "Port Said" and you just have to sigh and say, "that was then" and hope they get it.
 

belly_dancer

New member
All right, I'm opening up this can of worms again. Yesterday I was in a bookstore reading a history book called "Horrible Prettiness" about the history of burlesque. According to this book, and other sources I have read, Little Egypt was the beginning of bellydance being involved in burlesque. At that time the dance was called the 'cooch' or 'hoochie-coochie'. Eventually with all the competing acts it started to become more raunchy and less variety show, and then the shows started having their 'cooch' dancers or bellydancers start taking clothes off. So basically according to this book bellydance is the forerunner of the striptease, much like vaudeville burlesque was the forerunner of the strip show.

I also picked up a book called 'Belly Dancing' by Pina Coluccia, Anette Paffrath, and Jean Putz. There is a great deal of silliness about the Mother Goddess/Great Goddess in there. Although I do admit I like how they focus on sexuality being a very important part of the dance, and talk (if all too briefly) about male bellydancers.

I often wonder how to dispel the goddess myth, as so many people nowadays tend to see the Goddess everywhere, even where she wasn't (such as Ireland or Scotland). In fact there are allegedly no cultures that are truly 'goddess' based...many pantheons but no one female deity. Anyway I'd really like to know how to dispel this myth with bellydance as well as with the Celtic and Pictish histories if anyone has any suggestions. I'm also curious to know what everyone thinks of the history of bellydance as it relates to striptease...this may be why so many people assume we are strippers, or similar.

-Brea

I forget WHERE I read the following.... but do recall seeing it more than once...
basically after the huge popularity of Sol Bloom's circus.... oops I mean the world's fair .... with the original "little egypt" performing, there came MANY imitators using the name to cash in on the popularity/noteriety...
{just like today... when you see a "belly dancer" (who cannot dance (or maybe who can?! but nobody cares!) in a fantasy harem costume w/ snake charming music at a strip club.... it is just a gimic to make $$$$}
so there were MANY "hoochie-coochie" dancers USING the name "little egypt" (& most likely very few of them had actually SEEN the show of the original little egypt... so their "act" was based on the (most likely highly exaggerated) "titillating" stories they heard... probably told to them by the male producers of the show!!!!!!! [that is MY conclusion!!]).... but I doubt the ORIGINAL Little Egypt was in a burlesque show.... some where I read that the original performers went back to their country (Syria???) within a year of the show.....
would be interested what others have read/heard/recall?!?!?!
 

Brea

New member
Hey everyone,

You know what? I am a history major. Maybe I should start a piece on the authentic history of ME dance. I could do a paper that could lead to a book. I'd love to see something good out there on the subject. I suppose I could provide that. Besides, I've been a bit bored with my usual historical subjects lately. What do you think? Also, I wonder how many things in the history will be upsetting to me, and to others? I wonder if one could even write a definitive history of the dance. I do know, at least, that the man who wrote this book was definitely attempting an actual history of burlesque (in the sense of professional history, that is). So if Little Egypt did join such a troupe...and if his assertions that striptease was based on what was seen at the World's Fair...I wonder what that means for our profession.

-Brea
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
You know I WOULD LOVE to read this, but I don't think you're going to find an "authentic" history of the dance because we don't know what the dance looked like in ancient times, only in the video era.

A COMPREHENSIVE history would be a better idea, but you'd have to tackle ancient Egyptian dance, Persian dance, Turkish, West African, and the ancient Greek and Phoenician dances, as well as deal with the whole Goddess issue.

Here's one of the older papers on our dance, by a dancer. I think this has been in circulation (in one form or another) since 1993.

http://joyfuldancer.home.comcast.net/writing/articles.htm
Origins of Oriental Dance: Pt 1 - What is Belly Dance? (with pictures)

and this one I found in the SCA
http://tribalbellydance.net/papers/dancepaper.
arguable on many points. She relies heavily on Bounaventura)

and if you're interested in Orientalist paintings and Orientalism itself creating the perception of artificial sex roles, I can send you the outline draft of my paper, which someday may actually turn into my thesis. Or not. I have other hobbies now :)

There are also books with "histories" in them, but you're better to start from scratch with your own research.


Don't let anything discourage you from your pursuit, though. Just know it's not going to be easy and there will be a LOT of debate about it. But that's a GOOD THING! :)
 

Farasha Hanem

New member
We are talking American Bellydance here. I don't think Burlesque ever happened in Egypt?


Brea isn't talking about the geographic Egypt; she's talking about a dancer who called herself "Little Egypt." She performed at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893.

Brea, I have the same book, and agree that the authors do take the whole goddess thing too far, but it does have some delicious recipes at the end, doesn't it? :dance:

Sorry, belly_dancer, I just now noticed your post. You are right---there were many imitators who came after Little Egypt, who took the dance and made it so raunchy, that even she began to complain about the vulgarity of her imitators.
 
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lizaj

New member
We are talking American Bellydance here. I don't think Burlesque ever happened in Egypt?


Brea isn't talking about the geographic Egypt; she's talking about a dancer who called herself "Little Egypt." She performed at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893.

Brea, I have the same book, and agree that the authors do take the whole goddess thing too far, but it does have some delicious recipes at the end, doesn't it? :dance:

Sorry, belly_dancer, I just now noticed your post. You are right---there were many imitators who came after Little Egypt, who took the dance and made it so raunchy, that even she began to complain about the vulgarity of her imitators.

Yes I know about Chicago and the dancers there and the subsequent little Egypts. What I was trying to point out that for those of us NOT in the USA and in Egypt, Turkey and Europe where the dance is now danced there is no connection with burlesque. I also believe (Suheir?) made a post on this forum that burlesque has earlier beginnings than 1893 so there might be less of a connection from that origin. I had always assumed it that burley and BD in the uSA grew from the dancers at the world fair ( who I believe didn't call themselves Little Egypt at the time but did so later on), it was what I had been told and read but then I haven't read enough on the subject...as yet. I am here to be told where to look!:)
 
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Brea

New member
All right, to risk being even more offensive:

I was not claiming bellydance originated with burlesque. I was claiming that STRIPTEASE originated from BELLYDANCE because of its inclusions in burlesque. There was so much competition between different shows that they started to have their 'cooch' dancers (that is, bellydancers) take clothing off. At least, that is what the book reports. It would also explain why everyone seems to have a vague association of bellydance and stripping. I was saying they may be right because of that. There is no denying, however, that there were and are bellydancers in burlesque shows, regardless of whether or not *the* Little Egypt was the Little Egypt that starred in one of those shows. Originally burlesque was not as risque, it was just a variety show, and that must be remembered as well...someone who wanted to dance for a living then didn't have a great deal of choice if their dance was something as exotic as bellydance.

And yes, that book is ridiculous- no footnotes or endnotes to prove where they get their information, of which a great deal is inaccurate just from a historical standpoint. You see, I feel I need to research before I make absolutely sure that they are wrong on the points I think they are...apparently they don't have that built-in historian's mind, because we all know that every time you make a claim you need some proof from another document....

-Brea Morgiane
 

Aniseteph

New member
Hey, where's A'isha when you need her?

Even if striptease came from one of those remove-the- clothes-to-find-the flea/bee dances that was purported to be oriental (hmmmmm....) it would have surely quickly have lost that connection and striptease would have been used in other types of dance. Unless those burlesque house managers were really slow to spot an opportunity.... (naah).

I don't think it's that complicated. I wonder if it's just that belly dance/dance du ventre/ hootchie cootchie or whatever you want to call it was just plain too suggestive to Western eyes so it ended up being performed in the same kind of venue where they did the other naughty stuff ie stripping, and there's the connection in people's minds. Or maybe it was part of pushing the envelope of what you could get away with (doesn't count as quite so naughty if you can think it's foreign culture :rolleyes:), and stripping was just the next step.
 

lizaj

New member
Hey, where's A'isha when you need her?

Even if striptease came from one of those remove-the- clothes-to-find-the flea/bee dances that was purported to be oriental (hmmmmm....) it would have surely quickly have lost that connection and striptease would have been used in other types of dance. Unless those burlesque house managers were really slow to spot an opportunity.... (naah).

I don't think it's that complicated. I wonder if it's just that belly dance/dance du ventre/ hootchie cootchie or whatever you want to call it was just plain too suggestive to Western eyes so it ended up being performed in the same kind of venue where they did the other naughty stuff ie stripping, and there's the connection in people's minds. Or maybe it was part of pushing the envelope of what you could get away with (doesn't count as quite so naughty if you can think it's foreign culture :rolleyes:), and stripping was just the next step.

Yes Indeed The venue would set a scene and belly dancing with or without clothes seems naughty.oooerr..and sensual (well we won't argue there) so if you see it in a vaudeville theatre or a night club it might seem more risque certainly than in a family restaurant.
Mind you I attended such last night and after seeing a very tasteful professional dancer, a client dressed in bedlah and chiffon skirt and high heels jumped up, wiggled around the dance floor to much encouragement, got rather p***ed and proceeded to do it at (all too) frequent intervals, wriggling down onto any available male knee. That's what she ( and some of the clientele :mad:) seemed to assume bellydancing was all about .She also tried to edge a friend and I off the dance floor after we had got up to dance to a tabla player but he kept repositioning himself to give her the cold shoulder...yeaahhhh and she gave up and sat on the first available (male) knee!
 

teela

New member
I do not know the full history of burlesque or belly dance, so I'm speculating here. I'm wondering if the "belly dance" they refer to was just a name to attract people without any real "belly dance" being done. Kind of like Shakira or some of the "experts" on you tube. Remember sex has always sold. Is it possible the term striptease came from strippers who teased with a hint but didn't actually go naked?
From what my father says about early burlesque, it was the tease, not the nudity that made it popular. Many performers did not strip completely and nudity kind of worked its way in as views changed. It was sort of a transition from vaudville to the girly shows. The transition to full nudity was gradual from what I understand. I could ask my father more about it when I next speak to him as he is in his 80's.
So is it possible the two remained separate but due to the percieved nature of the public, the two types of dancing were thrown into the same pot?
Just things to think about
 

TribalDancer

New member
Read "Looking for Little Egypt". There wasn't really one Little Egypt as we like to imagine. It's a great read, with info from SOl Bloom in it, to boot.
 

Venefica

New member
I often wonder how to dispel the goddess myth, as so many people nowadays tend to see the Goddess everywhere, even where she wasn't (such as Ireland or Scotland).

Very few nations if any have had just a Goddess, however there are strong Goddess figures in Celtic myths. Very many see the Goddess as one being, so any Goddess is a part of Her. And do the same whit Gods. Every God is a part of Him. If one look at it that way there definitive is a presence for the Goddess in Ireland and Scotland.

For me I see the Gods and the Divine in every thing I do. They are a part of all to me. They are all.
 

Brea

New member
Venefica-

I do not object to people seeing whatever they want or believing whatever they want. When they start claiming it is the accurate history of a place or thing (such as Scotland, Ireland, and bellydance, three things that are paramount in my life as a historian) then it makes me very angry. I cannot tell you how many people assume that there was, in Celtic or Scottish mythology, a single overarching mother figure. There were female gods (possibly) but it's rather difficult to know as their ancient religions did not keep written records and so it's impossible to know what they worshipped. The remnants today are usually monsters or fairies. Anyway.

I understand that the tease was the important part back in the day but if bellydance did originate the idea of striptease as a show....so what? I mean, why does it matter so much if it did? I can certainly see the possibility.

-Brea Morgiane
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
According to this book, and other sources I have read, Little Egypt was the beginning of bellydance being involved in burlesque. At that time the dance was called the 'cooch' or 'hoochie-coochie'.

What was really getting the crowd aroused was the dancing in the French Pavillion -- the can can. Sol's dancers were getting very little attention. What the wives group wanted to close down was the French dance show, whose dancers were kicking and stepping in such a fashion that you could see their underwear. This was MUCH more offensive than anything Sol's dancers could dream of doing. Keep in mind too, what those girls were doing was only "bellydance" by our widest definition of the term.

Eventually with all the competing acts it started to become more raunchy and less variety show, and then the shows started having their 'cooch' dancers or bellydancers start taking clothes off. So basically according to this book bellydance is the forerunner of the striptease, much like vaudeville burlesque was the forerunner of the strip show.

This is inconsistent with many other works on the Expo, carnival history, and the history of what would in the 30s be called Cooch shows.

When carnival acts included a "bellydancer" it would have been in setting only. Stick a cardboard palm tree on the stage, and put her in a Cleopatra wig, the girl was a bellydancer. Put up a cardboard cherry tree, put the girl in white makeup and suddenly she's a geisha dancer. Same dance, just different "mystique."

Not all cooch shows were "strip" shows either. Many were just nude dancers parading around and posing.


I often wonder how to dispel the goddess myth, as so many people nowadays tend to see the Goddess everywhere, even where she wasn't (such as Ireland or Scotland). In fact there are allegedly no cultures that are truly 'goddess' based...many pantheons but no one female deity.

It begins with archaeologist Marija Gimbutas's pictorial atlas of neolithic symbology "The Language of the Goddess" and her interpretations of those symbols and those of her followers. Linguistics as an archaeological science was still developing, and what was then understood about the history of Indo-European peoples helped her interpretations gain a certain amount of respectability -- but never without high controversy among her peers.

The Goddess Movement is based on Marija's interpretations of art and symbols. And frankly, I've read a LOT of her critics and I still find it JUST as hard to believe that certain of the little goddess figurines are "dolls" and "toys" as is argued -- especially given the locations in which they're found. They may not be representations of the One Mother Goddess, but I think to dismiss them as toys isn't looking very academically at the entire archaeological record. Plus, there is no evidence that ancient peoples weren't capable of pictorial-SYMBOLIC thought! That just BUGS ME!!!!

BUT, even among the ancient Egyptians, I don't think it's possible to rule out entirely the idea of a over-arching Goddess (in one sense) -- although by "classical" times, the Egyptians developed a strong sense of duality and male/female balance in their religion. Isis (Ist) is the throne, and reanimates Osiris (Wsr) PLUS, she's the only one who knows Ra's true name, which when you know the name of something it meant you had power over it. :) We can argue this all day, though, and I see your point. ;P

Anyway, like we've noticed before, bellydance itself has gotten pulled into the neo-pagan culture in the US, and most neo-pagans seem to include some kind of Goddess worship or acknowledgement. Wendy's book doesn't help dispell the myth, and practically every week there's an article in SOME magazine about how bellydance was part of some ancient ritual. Dispel the myth? More power to you! But I don't think that's ever going to happen - at least in my lifetime.


Anyway I'd really like to know how to dispel this myth with bellydance as well as with the Celtic and Pictish histories if anyone has any suggestions.

When people start in on the goddess thing, I usually say "It's a matter of interpretation, and frankly we don't have enough evidence to say for certain. These are interesting ideas, but they're not necessarily historical facts. But if it's part of your spiritual system to acknowledge a mother goddess, then by all means take this dance and incorporate it into your religious ritual." For people who REALLY want to know, that will spark them into asking questions. For people who want to maintain their own ignorance, it will tick them off and they won't speak to you. Either way, problem solved. LOL.


I'm also curious to know what everyone thinks of the history of bellydance as it relates to striptease...this may be why so many people assume we are strippers, or similar.

I think the reason we're equated with strippers (or rather dancers at the XXX Adult Theatres) can be EASILY seen on YouTube. "Watch me shake my sexy thang cuz I'm a bellydancer." Nuff said.

But really, it's a holdover from Victorian times when they were so sexed up but weren't allowed to talk about it in polite company. It's Orientalist fantasy played out. It's political -- those nasty heathens over there doing that filthy dance (allows us to occupy their lands without guilt.) It's the fantasy of the dancing girl. Strippers wore pasties. So did bellydancers -- BECAUSE the strippers wore them, and because nightclub owners wanted to have an exotic and slightly "naughty" feel without worrying about indecency laws and paying off local politicians.
 
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