From "danse du ventre" to "belly dance"

Aisha Azar

New member
Danse etc.

Dear Andrea,

A'isha, I agree 100%. Maybe a more specific word than "revision" would be "recension" meaning a whole new version of something -- though you probably don't like the word version, but "whole new" is the central idea and the shared movement base and cultural filter are pretty important! I don't mean to detract at all from the original art raqs sharqi became.


A'isha writes-
While I do agree technically that it is a "version" of pelvic movement based dances that have come out of the Middle East and North Africa. I do not like to put it that way for one reason. People who do not have a really good education in this dance form, then assume that dances that may have preceded Raqs Sharghi and Oriental Tanzi are just like them, and that there is such thing as "ancient belly dance" and it looked just like what we see today. I think if we are going to clearly define the dance for the public, different terminology might be part of the key to that. I like the idea of referring to the older dances as Pelvis and Hip based dances and leaving "belly" out of the mix, but only because of the need to clarify for our students and audiences.

I also agree that movement base and cultural filter are not only important, but the cultural attribute is the very heart of the dance!! However, the other influences, especially in the case of Raqs Sharghi, were a very far step from the dances that came before it, and it became something new and different. I am in no way denigrating their importance!

On the other hand, I also don't think that the dance was static before the 20th century, then suddenly it changed. I think it was and is always in flux, and that the movement base and cultural filters fluctuate gradually over time as well.

A'isha writes- I agree. Nothing stands still.

So I see raqs sharqi as a new offshoot of something that has been around *in many forms* for a long time. It may be the *most* deviant from the center stream of the tradition (or not), but I think that the seeds of it are there in the base phenomenon all along, and that across time other forms of the dance have developed from the same tradition. For example: the theatrical dances of the companies of Turkish cengis facilitated by the urban, economic, and cultural aspects of the Ottoman empire, and also, I think, danse du ventre in the late 19th-early 20th centuries, which was (I think) a phenomenon with specific attributes and not "just" tradition.


A'isha writes_ I agree with the above also, but I still think that when we discuss the dance with our students and the general public, we need to clarify our meanings much more than when we are talking to seasoned dancers, which is why I use the wording that I do. The development of Raqs sharghi and Oriental tanzi are so variant from other forms in even posture and presentation that this evolution in the dance actually transformed hip and pelvis based dance forms into something else. the posture, the attitude, etc, all were something very new and very different.
I wish I could prove ( in the academic sense) that the dance underwent this transformation by linking it to the sociological/psychological changes that took place due to the Industrial (read that as service in Egypt) Revolution coming to North Africa. It is as plain as the nose on a good Middle Eastern face, but nonetheless, I do not find any writings on it. I discovered the link through sitting around reading too many textbooks!!
Regards,
A'isha

Now if only I could prove it ... :D

Joy in dance,

Andrea
 
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Morocco

New member
"REVISION" OR "RESCENSION" notwithstanding

Darling AD & AA, et alia:

I have areas of agreement & disagreement & no time to go into detail here, BUT while I have said ad nauseum that nothing stays the same - everything changes (just that the Japanese Tea Ceremony moves at the speed of an old snail) I'd like to throw this out for your consideration:

Flamenco in the days of L'Argentina (never mind L'Argentinita!) was MUCH different than Flamenco today. Just one small example: there was no such thing as the "cajon" & women didn't do much taconeo at all.

Then came Carmen Amaya, then came Antonio Gades, Flamenco is almost a whole other animal nowadays, BUT it was Flamenco then & it is STILL Flamenco now.

Same with Hula ...

One of the good things in both of the above (& Sharki) is that standards & available information have increased geometrically in the amount of time that I've been a professional dancer (which is more time than most folks used to live ...)

Back to that damned book!!!

*&*:D speaking of books - this one is due out this week & I have it:
THE MYTH OF SACRED PROSTITUTION IN ANTIQUITY by STEPHANIE LYNN BUDIN

Cambridge University Press ISBN#978-0-521-88090-9

Been saying all along re some of the earlier "accounts": gotta know what the writer's agenda was. Goes for good old Herodotus too.

Humungous hugs,
Morocco
 

Kharmine

New member
As usual, the blessed Morocco offers practical information one can actually check for one's self, not just stuff we're supposed to take her word for on as she's the only one who can verify her own sources.

Without primary source material, competent scholarly work, independent corroboration, all we have, after all, is opinions.

And, of course, she's right. All dance forms, so far as I've been able to tell, change with time and new innovators, even within a particular culture. Flamenco, hula, tango and other dances of ethnic origin remain flamenco, hula, tango, etc. even when transmitted by people within their original cultures to people of other cultures. Even when taught in foreign countries.

Even when several styles are synthesized into a blended form that reflects the transmission methods.

So long as the dances keep within a recognized vocabulary of movement, are performed within the various traditions of the dance (and many dances have several traditions, or styles) and performed to the culturally appropriate music, even when they are performed with some originality they aren't mistaken for anything else.

Considering the vast abyss of evidence, of any recognized professional standard, to the contrary -- one would hope the real evidence like that produced here and elsewhere would finally end the argyfying over whether the so-called American Cabaret/American Oriental style is in the same category as raqs sharqi, tchefetelli and oryantal danzi.

And maybe now we can go on to more useful matters -- like how to get the word out that the dance ain't some goddess-worship ritual thang. Party on, kids! (blows a kiss and sinks back below the waves of research....)
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Daance etc.

Dear Forum members,
Responses below in context.

As usual, the blessed Morocco offers practical information one can actually check for one's self, not just stuff we're supposed to take her word for on as she's the only one who can verify her own sources.

A'isha writes- Actually, many times Morocco has written and said things that are NOT verifiable and that one can NOT check for oneself. It is called first hand research. She is occasionally the only one who can verify her sources. This does not in any way make her a liar or a person who should not be believed.

Without primary source material, competent scholarly work, independent corroboration, all we have, after all, is opinions.

A'isha wites- In the end, all we have is opinion, because all of those primary source materials, competent scholarly work and independent corroboration, were once unverifiable sources.

And, of course, she's right. All dance forms, so far as I've been able to tell, change with time and new innovators, even within a particular culture. Flamenco, hula, tango and other dances of ethnic origin remain flamenco, hula, tango, etc. even when transmitted by people within their original cultures to people of other cultures. Even when taught in foreign countries.

A'isha writes- Yes, all dance is dynamic, but there is also a specifically cultural element to changes in its native environments that definitely gets lost in the translation many times, when foreigners take it upon themsleves to
decide what the dance is going to do in the way of transformation. Hence we have "Bellynesian" and Goth, in no way, besides a few very basic movement elements, reflect what native dance is, its meaning, feeling, or any other real definition of the dances of the Middle East.

Even when several styles are synthesized into a blended form that reflects the transmission methods.

So long as the dances keep within a recognized vocabulary of movement, are performed within the various traditions of the dance (and many dances have several traditions, or styles) and performed to the culturally appropriate music, even when they are performed with some originality they aren't mistaken for anything else.


Considering the vast abyss of evidence, of any recognized professional standard, to the contrary -- one would hope the real evidence like that produced here and elsewhere would finally end the argyfying over whether the so-called American Cabaret/American Oriental style is in the same category as raqs sharqi, tchefetelli and oryantal danzi.

A. writes- What evidence would that be? I see nothing here that points to the general public, or the Arab public calling American Oriental "Belly dance". It is not at all the same dance as raqs sharghi or Oriental tanzi, not having a solid, well grounded Middle Eastern cultural element... and in the end, it is a cultural dance whether or not that is an accepted fact. Even Chiftetelli is not belly dance, but a separate category of dance that utilizes some of the same movements.


A'isha Azar

And maybe now we can go on to more useful matters -- like how to get the word out that the dance ain't some goddess-worship ritual thang. Party on, kids! (blows a kiss and sinks back below the waves of research....)
 

Kharmine

New member
Le danse du politico

(Sticks her head in briefly just to keep things interesting)

From watching all the political shenanigans goin' on here in the States, it occurs to me that the desperate, cynical but often clever tricks used to discredit an opponent are things we should watch out for on this here forum. This thread is a good example

First: If you can't refute your opponents' evidence with your own by the standards commonly respected for weighing evidence, then attack the standards.

Hammer on every shred of doubt to make it look like your audience has to apply that doubtfulness in every possible situation and make it outweigh all else. Like reason and common sense.

Now that you've lowered that bar, claim that your standard for your evidence is now just as good as their standards for their evidence.

(Yes, this works for those who attack scientific proof of human-caused global warming!)

Next: If your opponents say they have the backing of the majority, claim you have all these folks who agree with you and they are irrefutable -- unlike all those other people who are either dubious characters or just telling your opponents what your opponents want to hear.

(This is called "My pollsters are better than your pollsters!")

Anyone pushes you to know more about these oodles of folks you claim are absolutely a dependable representative sample of a real, larger primary source group -- claim you can't reveal who they are as a matter of national security or something

(This has worked for everyone from the Rosicrucians to Sen. Joe McCarthy, into present times, of course.)

And last but not least: Don't forget to ignore the bigger picture, the context and any evidence to the contrary (oooh, "evidence" what a suspect word!) -- just attack dissenters for not always being right or consistent on every single thing so that it sounds like nothing they say or do unless it agrees with you can be trusted.

(This is called "Swiftboating," after the Vietnam vets who went after Sen. John Kerry in '04 because he dared to protest the war back in the '60s.)

Be sure to treat your dissenters with a healthy dose of regal contempt unless they go out of their way to placate you, then be grudgingly polite, no more. And no matter how much education/experience they have, always insist that yours is superior. Remember, by your standard of evidence your claim is enough -- but not theirs.

These are venerable tactics because they work -- on enough people often enough to make a difference. Accomplished with righteous indignation, distracting feints, clever words and sheer pugnaciousness -- they may convince some of us at any time that there really is at least reasonable doubt about anything they don't want us to believe.

Don't let 'em fool ya, folks. Anywhere, including here. Cheers, y'all! (Withdraws head)
 

Aisha Azar

New member
.... How childish. If you spent more time doing research and less time trying to discredit me, you might actually be more believable.
A'isha Azar
Dancer and researcher
 
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Kharmine

New member
(Pops head back in)

Forgot to mention in my earlier post that another thing to watch for is projection.

(Borrowing from Wikipedia) In psychology "...a defense mechanism in which one attributes to others one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them."

It applies in politics to the quite conscious process of accusing your opponents of doing/thinking/feeling precisely what you are doing/thinking/feeling.

Usually nothing very positive. Go figure.

We all project at times in our lives. The real challenge is to recognize it and own up. Perhaps then we can really examine in our lives what is going on to cause the behavior. And move on in a more mentally mature fashion.

OK, here endeth the lesson, kids. Gotta go back to digging up stuff according to the standards under which I was trained. Which ain't perfect but -- as with all the standards I apply to my life -- they are the best I know and must do until I find better.

Cheerio! (Vanishes)
 

sausanacademy

Premium Member
There is nothing wrong with not stretching in most belly dance classes.

I agree. This dance we do is not like ballet or modern or jazz, which are off-shoots of ballet where stretching is a must to keep muscles moving like they do. This dance is just a native form put to a beat. I never stretch in my classes. I warm up by dancing -- simply at first.

-Sausan
 

Morocco

New member
I agree. This dance we do is not like ballet or modern or jazz, which are off-shoots of ballet where stretching is a must to keep muscles moving like they do. This dance is just a native form put to a beat. I never stretch in my classes. I warm up by dancing -- simply at first.

-Sausan

Agree with you in principle: my warmup, except for a few upper body moves in the first 5 minutes that are not part of Sharki & are designed to loosen up a bit, consists *entirely* of the basic movement vocabulary of Sharki, first slowly then a bit faster, first the slow moves then the hip articulations, then combos.

Aunt Rocky
 

sausanacademy

Premium Member
Agree with you in principle: my warmup, except for a few upper body moves in the first 5 minutes that are not part of Sharki & are designed to loosen up a bit, consists *entirely* of the basic movement vocabulary of Sharki, first slowly then a bit faster, first the slow moves then the hip articulations, then combos.

Aunt Rocky

Ahh...:)...yes...we have different warm-up techniques is all.

-Sausan
 

Mosaic

Super Moderator
Thank you all, I am avidly reading here. I do enjoy delving into the depths of a subject:D
~Mosaic
 

Reen.Blom

New member
(Pops head back in)

Forgot to mention in my earlier post that another thing to watch for is projection.

(Borrowing from Wikipedia) In psychology "...a defense mechanism in which one attributes to others one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them."

It applies in politics to the quite conscious process of accusing your opponents of doing/thinking/feeling precisely what you are doing/thinking/feeling.

Usually nothing very positive. Go figure.

We all project at times in our lives. The real challenge is to recognize it and own up. Perhaps then we can really examine in our lives what is going on to cause the behavior. And move on in a more mentally mature fashion.

OK, here endeth the lesson, kids. Gotta go back to digging up stuff according to the standards under which I was trained. Which ain't perfect but -- as with all the standards I apply to my life -- they are the best I know and must do until I find better.

Cheerio! (Vanishes)

LoL Kharmine! This was funny! I like your description of all the dirty tricks! YOu could become a politician! :p How is your book progressing by the waY??? I do hope it goes well! Hope to see you more around here...:cool:
 

Kharmine

New member
LoL Kharmine! This was funny! I like your description of all the dirty tricks! YOu could become a politician! :p How is your book progressing by the waY??? I do hope it goes well! Hope to see you more around here...:cool:

Hi, RB! Thanks for the kind words. The book is moving along, but takes a huge amount of time. I don't expect to be popping in any more frequently, unfortunately, for some time. For one thing, as the weather lightens up I expect to be traveling more often and farther.

Several people on this thread have now presented reasonable evidence for the origin of the term "belly dance," as having occurred in the United States in the 1890s, as a loose English, vulgar translation of the older French "danse du ventre." They have offered verifiable research, and verifiable, independently corroborated sources. Good on you, folks!

That certainly represents more effort and far better quality than what has been presented in opposition, so far. Those who disagree might think about coming up with something more substantive than, "Because I say so, and that should be good enough for anyone!"
 

Andrea Deagon

New member
Just a comment, I was reading a 1905 bestseller (and boy, is the prose purple, but I still like it) called The Garden of Allah, set in Algeria, and there is an extensive belly dance scene in that book. The author refers to it consistently as the "stomach dance." I wonder if stomach, also a translation of ventre, wasn't more polite to say in mixed company, and so had some circulation in Emglish while "belly dance" might be understood but unsaid.

Which brings up the question of when and why the more prejudicial term came into popular use -- was it, as Bloom said, in Chicago in 1893, especially since some early sources translate danse du ventre this way? Or did people call it a bunch of different things, of which "belly dance" was probably the most shocking? I'ce also seen "hip dance" and "muscle dance" from the early 1900's.

Just a few more turnips in the pot ...:D
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dance etc.

Just a comment, I was reading a 1905 bestseller (and boy, is the prose purple, but I still like it) called The Garden of Allah, set in Algeria, and there is an extensive belly dance scene in that book. The author refers to it consistently as the "stomach dance." I wonder if stomach, also a translation of ventre, wasn't more polite to say in mixed company, and so had some circulation in Emglish while "belly dance" might be understood but unsaid.

Which brings up the question of when and why the more prejudicial term came into popular use -- was it, as Bloom said, in Chicago in 1893, especially since some early sources translate danse du ventre this way? Or did people call it a bunch of different things, of which "belly dance" was probably the most shocking? I'ce also seen "hip dance" and "muscle dance" from the early 1900's.

Just a few more turnips in the pot ...:D






Dear Andrea,
Was "muscle dance" not specific to the Ouled Nail? I was not aware of it in any other context.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Kharmine

New member
Just a comment, I was reading a 1905 bestseller (and boy, is the prose purple, but I still like it) called The Garden of Allah, set in Algeria, and there is an extensive belly dance scene in that book. The author refers to it consistently as the "stomach dance." I wonder if stomach, also a translation of ventre, wasn't more polite to say in mixed company, and so had some circulation in Emglish while "belly dance" might be understood but unsaid.

Which brings up the question of when and why the more prejudicial term came into popular use -- was it, as Bloom said, in Chicago in 1893, especially since some early sources translate danse du ventre this way? Or did people call it a bunch of different things, of which "belly dance" was probably the most shocking? I'ce also seen "hip dance" and "muscle dance" from the early 1900's.

Just a few more turnips in the pot ...:D

I put my resource materials away for the dance as I'm involved with other kinds of research now, so I can't quote from exact sources.

However, I remember having seen "stomach dance" and "muscle dance" used in early print, probably because it was otherwise hard to convey what the dancer was doing exactly. If I recall 'em correctly, those terms were sometimes applied to dances that weren't done by the Ouled Nail (at least, the dancers are said to be Turkish or some such) so my guess is they were the euphemisms of last resort if one wasn't using danse du ventre for just about anything involving the torso and hips.

Unfortunately, books on period slang almost never include "belly" to show what its position was in polite society. I couldn't even find it in H.L, Mencken's 1921 ground-breaking book on American slang, and he was no prude.

Later researchers can only go by what they find in an era that was allowed in print. "Belly" seems to have been treated as an obscene word for a long time.
 

Andrea Deagon

New member
I believe I saw "muscle dance" used of a male dancer in the Street in Cairo exhibition in Chicago, 1893. But I am too lazy to go look it up for sure. I don't recall seeing it in French but in all honesty, my French readings are far less extensive (and far more labored!) than my readings in English.

From what I have seen, the French were quite likely to mix Algerian and Egyptian dance as part of the same phenomenon, which it must have seemed to them to be. The earliest descriptions I have seen of Ouled Nail (though I am sure there are some earlier) are from about 1850 and they are not described as a special phenomenon, just as professional dancers. There were lots of professional dancers in Algeria who weren't Ouled Nail and I wonder if there might have been some confusion over who was and who wasn't, with dance styles similar enough that there was not necessarily clarity among the French as to who was what.

By the end of the 19th century & beginning of the 20th, the Ouled Nail seem to have been distinguished more specifically, and you get both the romanticising portraits of Etienne Dinet (who converted to Islam and spent years living with and painting the Ouled Nail) and also a little later the National Geographic photographs, and other descriptions of Ouled Nail that focus on the grotesque.

None of this is hard and fast, just trends I've noticed in the smallish amount of French literature I've read that mentions Algerian dancers.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
In 1892, Oscar Wilde published his infamous play "Salome". His original edition was in French and brought on stage on France, because at that time the censors would not permit plays with a Biblical theme to be presented on stage in England.

A couple of years later, though I'm still digging to find out exactly when, it was translated into English by Lord Alfred Douglas. (I know that the first staging of it in England in May 1905, so Douglas' translation would obviously have been completed before that.) That edition was illustrated by drawings by Aubrey Beadsley. Page 83 is a full-page illustration titled "The Stomach Dance."
 

Andrea Deagon

New member
I think the first English translation with the Beardsley drawings was 1894. I think the "stomach dance" transation shows that danse du ventre must have been pretty common as a term for the dance in France at the time -- maybe it was due to the 1889 Exposition Universelle where Egyptian and Algerian dancers appeared in numbers in France for the first time and began dancing in other French venues afterwards. I wish I could go to France ...:(
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
I wish I could go to France ...

Je voudrais moi aussi d'aller en France. Il y a beaucoup d'années puisque j'ai été en France

I've been toying with the idea of doing my own personal translation of Flaubert's writings about Egypt from French to English, just in case there are nuances in there about the dance that a non-dancer translator might miss.
 
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