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  1. #11
    Senior Member sedoniaraqs's Avatar
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    Adiemus, maybe you can fill in some details here:

    I have read somewhere a sports medicine paper that pointed out that the degree of lumbar curve and the degree of pelvic tilt are two separate characteristics. Correct?

    It seems to me that in the dance world, teachers confuse the two. For example, if someone appears to have a deep lumbar curve and protubertant rear, a teacher will often correct the student to "tuck" more by tilting the pelvis back more using the lower abdominal muscles. But the pelvic tilt may or may not be the problem.

    However, in this paper (that I can't relocate) it was pointed out that some people with a deep lumbar curve do not necessarily also have a tilted forward pelvis. Some people had both problems or only one. It was also demonstrated that these two characteristics could not be teased apart by simply looking at the outside of the body, only with xrays or at least poking/proding by a PT.

    Do you have any sources for this or any more light to shed on the matter?

    It has been my experience as a teacher that beginning students with what appears to me to be a forward-tilted pelvis that they *can't* make neutral (as opposed to just having lazy posture) simply can't execute the foundational movements of this dance, none of the hip movement look right, and these students quickly get frustrated and drop out/give up quickly. If they talk to me about it, I generally try to be honest and tell them it is beyond my scope to fix their problem and they should consult with a PT. Most of the time they just disappear.

    Sedonia

  2. #12
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
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    Hi Sedonia
    It's true that 'apparent' lordosis can be made up of both pelvic tilt (which is mainly muscular and hence amenable to change) and some wedging or boney changes in the sacral, lumbar and thoracic vertebrae. Boney changes can't be changed except by surgery, but sometimes the postural changes (or ways the vertebrae are aligned) can be slightly changed with posture (or otherwise we can't bend at all!!).
    However, yes you're right in that you can't tell except through x-ray.
    Having said this, some people find altering their lordosis is really difficult not because of any boney changes, but simply because they have very shortened and lengthened ligaments and muscle attachments. I'm one of these! At first I couldn't flatten my lumbar spine along a wall except by moving my legs away from the wall so that (a) there is some room for my butt! and (b) the shortened quads ligaments weren't pulling my pelvis forward.
    So you can't really tell - and what I've done is lots and lots of quads stretches and abdo strengthening - and I can *just* flatten my lumbar spine. But it's a real struggle.
    I don't know whether students who have lordosis can never execute the movements - they can, but you're right in saying that it won't look the same as for people with a more neutral lumbar curve. But this sort of musculoskeletal variation is entirely normal - it's only a handicap if the person wants to achieve a specific 'look' while they're dancing, or if they really want to be a professional performer. Unless that's their aim, they'll be fine to go ahead with amateur dance and dance for fun.
    You as teacher would need to remind yourself that they're probably doing the movements correctly, but that it doesn't look exactly the same - and it's critical that they soften the knees, because this is one position they (me!!) are prone not to assume...
    A physiotherapist may be helpful for postural correction, but if it's boney formation, then the only 'fix' is surgical - and believe me you don't want to do that!!!

  3. #13
    V.I.P. Mya's Avatar
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    i'm glad i asked this question! at least we're all getting some useful information out of it!

  4. #14
    Member Miranda Phoenix's Avatar
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    Just read this thread and, wow, what a lot of good info.

    I, too, have trouble flattening my back against a wall; I also have trouble doing mayas without feeling a nasty little grinding thing going on in my lower back AND I've yet to find a massage therapist that has a light enough touch to work on my lower back without it hurting like you-know-what.... thanks to all of you, I not only think these things are related, I know how to fix them! I'm going to make an appointment with my trainer ASAP and see if we can't incorporate some appropriate stretching/strengthening exercises into my program. Thanks, ladies!

    Oriental.net rocks!

  5. #15
    V.I.P. jenc's Avatar
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    I read somewhere that if you stretch and become more flexible you are putting yorself at risk of injury if you don't develop the supporting muscles. Oh yeah it was in the blurb re dvd on exercise for bellydancers, the one with the man in pharoah headdress on front.

    I seem to have reached a point where i can do deeper rib circles but am more uncomfortable afterwards.

    Anyonhave any comments on exercise

  6. #16
    Senior Member Marya's Avatar
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    Default Pain with dance movements

    As one who has scoliosis, and whose parents had it too I know that it gets worse if you don't stay in good physical condition.

    When I started Belly dancing I had a lot of lower back and hip pain after class. It would go away relatively quickly so I kept dancing. Teachers would talk about posture in class but until I started studying with Aisha Azar and received individual attention, no one told me, personally, how to correct my posture. I thought I was doing everything just fine and was just cursed with pain, once I understood what I needed to do differently and did the moves correctly, the pain went away, now when my chronic back condition (more than just scoliosis) is painful, I dance to make the pain go away, what joy!!

    Scoliosis or lordosis are just just a few examples of problems students may need to overcome. As a teacher, I have noticed that students think their bodies are in the correct posture, or that they are doing the moves correctly but years of being disconnected from their bodies either because of physical or emotional injuries prevents them from actually feeling how they are moving or standing. That is one reason why this dance can be so healing. by reconnecting with the physical body one can remove or lessen both physical and emotional blocks. It can take years of course, I am still emotionally and physically blocked but now I know that and can address the issues. I have even see effect in teenagers so it is not just age-related.

    I had a student who had been hit by a truck and was probably the most disconnected student I ever had. After just a few classes and a couple of private sessions she commented to me that the dance was freeing her up in ways she thought were impossible. She is still can't do the moves properly but the benefit to her outweighs that.

    Marya

  7. #17
    V.I.P. Reen.Blom's Avatar
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    Big Grin

    Quote Originally Posted by Marya View Post

    As a teacher, I have noticed that students think their bodies are in the correct posture, or that they are doing the moves correctly but years of being disconnected from their bodies either because of physical or emotional injuries prevents them from actually feeling how they are moving or standing. That is one reason why this dance can be so healing. by reconnecting with the physical body one can remove or lessen both physical and emotional blocks. It can take years of course, I am still emotionally and physically blocked but now I know that and can address the issues. I have even see effect in teenagers so it is not just age-related.
    How very true! Very few people are really connected to their bodies! Re-connecting is the wayto go! Brilliant post!

    Best wishes from Alexander Lowen fan.....LOL

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