A posture question for instructors

[Mya]

Hey guys, i'm not sure if this better belongs in the fitness section, but i thought it might be ok to ask here as well.

One of my students has a condition in her lower back - i'm really not recalling the name at the moment, but basically it's where you have a spinal curvature - scoliosis i think. when we discuss posture in class and keeping a straight back; avoiding "duck butt" she says that she can't do that because of her condition.

She still tries to adjust herself so that she's doing what i ask but i don't want her to hurt herself. I told her to check with her doctor to make sure, but does anyone here happen to know if it's possible for her to harm herself doing this?

I'm just asking because it seems like some of you have studied things related to this. Any help will be appreciated!

 

[Ranya]

Hi, one of my best friends who is an active semi-professional dancer (still studies) started belly dance in the first place because she needed some exercice for her scoliosis. And it did not hurt her at all and I guess she even might have improved her posture. However it has to be remembered that scoliolis can take different shapes and the spine can be thus "turned" in various ways and not always the same. And then there is lordosis and kifosis (spelling?) one of them being where the back is abnormally bend forwards and the other backwards but can't remember which one is which.
She definitely SHOULD consult it, but I know quite a few girls who took up dance because of scoliosis. Would be careful though.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[Mya]

thanks ranya, hers is quite mild fortunately but i don't like to take chances with people's bodies and their health - that's why i asked her to check with her doctor just to be safe. I appreciate the information though.

 

[adiemus]

scoliosis is where the spine curves in a slight 's' shape to the left and right as you look at her from the back. This is usually a congenital condition (born with it), and it won't change despite exercise because it's about the shape of her vertebrae which are boney.
The 'duck butt' is more about the forward/back 's' curve, where we all have a lordosis (curve in the lower back) and kyphosis (curve forward in the upper/thoracic area of the spine). In some people this is more exaggerated than others. This is partly the shape of the bones, but also about ligament and muscle pull. The amount this can change will depend on how much of the curve is boney (which can't change), and how much is muscle and ligament.
As a person with lordosis, I'm finding that it's very hard to change because I've had this posture forever! But, it can if you really persist.
You won't harm yourself changing posture - but it will hurt. Any stretch on a muscle or ligamentous area will be painful at least for a short time because it's a change in position that sends nerve information up to the brain which interprets it as 'danger'. BUT it's not harmful...
To make it bearable, long, slow stretches to the point of 'pull' not 'pain' are helpful, with strengthening of the opposing muscle group.
For lordosis (duck butt) you need to lengthen the tendons/ligaments and muscles in the quads (front of the thigh) attaching to the pelvis, and strengthen the hamstrings. At the same time you need to tilt the pelvis up using the very lower abdominal muscles, and lengthening the lower spine (so the gluteal muscles are not engaged). It won't work if you don't have relaxed knees...

So, short answer is no she won't harm herself, but she will find it uncomfortable especially after class and especially if she doesn't do daily stretches and strengthening of the selected muscle groups. And while she is developing those length and strength changes she will also notice that it can be a bit uncomfortable at times while the changes are happening. BUT practicing it (and I mean twice a day every day for months...) will help a bit.

 

[Mya]

thanks adiemus! it must have been you i was thinking of when i started the thread initially! i remembered someone always had some sort of expertise and good info about these things!
i feel a bit better as well knowing that i do exercises to strengthen the quad and hamstrings with my students in every class because they like their dance classes to be a little fitness oriented as well. Also i know we do a certain exercise that is supposed to lengthen the spine, so at least i know we're doing something right in this case!
She says she practises these exercises at home so perhaps she will see some change eventually.

you folks here are the best!

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Hello Mya, Adiemus is right...swayback..duck butt is known in medical circles as lordosis. Unless your student has been evaluated by a physician(prefeably a physiatrist,chiropractor or even a Physical therapist), it's better that you don't diagnose herself and prescribe 'treatment options'. But I do agree with Adiemus
"To make it bearable, long, slow stretches to the point of 'pull' not 'pain' are helpful, with strengthening of the opposing muscle group.
For lordosis (duck butt) you need to lengthen the tendons/ligaments and muscles in the quads (front of the thigh) attaching to the pelvis, and strengthen the hamstrings. At the same time you need to tilt the pelvis up using the very lower abdominal muscles, and lengthening the lower spine (so the gluteal muscles are not engaged). It won't work if you don't have relaxed knees..."
In truth there are no 'lower abs' per se as the rectus abdominus muscle runs the entire length of the torso (head to toe),however pulling in the lower section of this muscle will counteract the 'pull' and protect the lower back during movement. It's more important that your student is safe.
Yasmine

 

[KuteNurse]

It is my understanding the reason to bring in your tailbone is to protect your back. I personally would think that she could do damage to her lower back because she is not protecting it. Definately have her check with her doctor before she dances with you again. Good luck to you

 

[adiemus]

I think I've mentioned before, you won't 'damage' your back doing ME dancing, but you can stretch ligaments and strain muscles which can be painful if you're doing movements you're (a) not used to and (b) doing more often or in the outer range of movement than you're used to. It's pretty hard to do permanent damage to the spine, but the whole area including vertebrae and ligaments and allied tissues are liberally supplied with loads of nerve endings that transmit information and from your brain which interprets this as 'ouch that hurts'. So it can take a while for pain to reduce, but just because something hurts doesn't mean it's harmed or damaged! (think of a numb bum after sitting for too long!!)

re abdominal muscles: to be completely accurate, you're using psoas major and minor, iliocus, and quadratus lumborum to tilt your pelvis up. These muscles attach from the lower vertebrae T12, L1,2,3,4,5 and S1,2 to both the iliac crest, the inside of the pelvis and right down to the inner part of your femur. Plus you'll use lower fibres of rectus abdominus, and transverse abdominus for stabilisation, as well as loads of the muscles around the back...
I'll attach some pix for you to look at....View attachment 1122
This is psoas and QL... You'll find iliocus runs inside the rim of the iliac crest (your hip bone)

View attachment 1123
These are the outer layer of rectus abdominus, running from just under your diaphragm to just above your pubis
View attachment 1124
Another layer goes over that (transverse)
View attachment 1125
And finally the oblique
Sorry the text is in chinese - but I've included my transation!! You can find most of these pix on the net, but you can also search for 'abdominal muscles' and find loads of sites mainly for body builders...sigh...
What you're trying to do to change lordosis is stretch the psoas and QL which are often tight, while also stretching your quads which are made up of vastus medius and lateralis, abductor magus and longus, and sartorius (which is a long, straplike muscle running from your hip across your leg towards your inner thigh). It's often these that are shortened, while at the same time the muscles in the back including erector spinae, glut medius, some of lat dorsi, and sacrospinalus that are shortened and tight in people with lordosis.
Sorry about all the technical stuff, but after a while latin just rolls off the tongue (or is it the years of studying have finally paid off????!!)

 

[adiemus]

I couldn't resist, here is a picture of a person with lordosis - the remedy at the time of this drawing (1952) was to lace the person up with a tight corset to 'align' the spine - but what it in fact did, was reduce the ability of the muscles to function, leaving them a bit like flabby jelly once the corset was removed. If you've ever had your arm or leg in a plaster cast, you'll know what it's like when the cast is removed - all skinny and no muscle!!View attachment 1126

 

[Mya]

thanks for all the info =)
i like to understand things better!

 

[sedoniaraqs]

Adiemus, maybe you can fill in some details here:

I have read somewhere a sports medicine paper that pointed out that the degree of lumbar curve and the degree of pelvic tilt are two separate characteristics. Correct?

It seems to me that in the dance world, teachers confuse the two. For example, if someone appears to have a deep lumbar curve and protubertant rear, a teacher will often correct the student to "tuck" more by tilting the pelvis back more using the lower abdominal muscles. But the pelvic tilt may or may not be the problem.

However, in this paper (that I can't relocate) it was pointed out that some people with a deep lumbar curve do not necessarily also have a tilted forward pelvis. Some people had both problems or only one. It was also demonstrated that these two characteristics could not be teased apart by simply looking at the outside of the body, only with xrays or at least poking/proding by a PT.

Do you have any sources for this or any more light to shed on the matter?

It has been my experience as a teacher that beginning students with what appears to me to be a forward-tilted pelvis that they *can't* make neutral (as opposed to just having lazy posture) simply can't execute the foundational movements of this dance, none of the hip movement look right, and these students quickly get frustrated and drop out/give up quickly. If they talk to me about it, I generally try to be honest and tell them it is beyond my scope to fix their problem and they should consult with a PT. Most of the time they just disappear.

Sedonia

 

[adiemus]

Hi Sedonia
It's true that 'apparent' lordosis can be made up of both pelvic tilt (which is mainly muscular and hence amenable to change) and some wedging or boney changes in the sacral, lumbar and thoracic vertebrae. Boney changes can't be changed except by surgery, but sometimes the postural changes (or ways the vertebrae are aligned) can be slightly changed with posture (or otherwise we can't bend at all!!).
However, yes you're right in that you can't tell except through x-ray.
Having said this, some people find altering their lordosis is really difficult not because of any boney changes, but simply because they have very shortened and lengthened ligaments and muscle attachments. I'm one of these! At first I couldn't flatten my lumbar spine along a wall except by moving my legs away from the wall so that (a) there is some room for my butt! and (b) the shortened quads ligaments weren't pulling my pelvis forward.
So you can't really tell - and what I've done is lots and lots of quads stretches and abdo strengthening - and I can *just* flatten my lumbar spine. But it's a real struggle.
I don't know whether students who have lordosis can never execute the movements - they can, but you're right in saying that it won't look the same as for people with a more neutral lumbar curve. But this sort of musculoskeletal variation is entirely normal - it's only a handicap if the person wants to achieve a specific 'look' while they're dancing, or if they really want to be a professional performer. Unless that's their aim, they'll be fine to go ahead with amateur dance and dance for fun.
You as teacher would need to remind yourself that they're probably doing the movements correctly, but that it doesn't look exactly the same - and it's critical that they soften the knees, because this is one position they (me!!) are prone not to assume...
A physiotherapist may be helpful for postural correction, but if it's boney formation, then the only 'fix' is surgical - and believe me you don't want to do that!!!

 

[Mya]

i'm glad i asked this question! at least we're all getting some useful information out of it!

 

[Miranda Phoenix]

Just read this thread and, wow, what a lot of good info.

I, too, have trouble flattening my back against a wall; I also have trouble doing mayas without feeling a nasty little grinding thing going on in my lower back AND I've yet to find a massage therapist that has a light enough touch to work on my lower back without it hurting like you-know-what.... thanks to all of you, I not only think these things are related, I know how to fix them! I'm going to make an appointment with my trainer ASAP and see if we can't incorporate some appropriate stretching/strengthening exercises into my program. Thanks, ladies!

Oriental.net rocks! :dance:

 

[jenc]

I read somewhere that if you stretch and become more flexible you are putting yorself at risk of injury if you don't develop the supporting muscles. Oh yeah it was in the blurb re dvd on exercise for bellydancers, the one with the man in pharoah headdress on front.

I seem to have reached a point where i can do deeper rib circles but am more uncomfortable afterwards.

Anyonhave any comments on exercise

 

[Marya]

Pain with dance movements

As one who has scoliosis, and whose parents had it too I know that it gets worse if you don't stay in good physical condition.

When I started Belly dancing I had a lot of lower back and hip pain after class. It would go away relatively quickly so I kept dancing. Teachers would talk about posture in class but until I started studying with Aisha Azar and received individual attention, no one told me, personally, how to correct my posture. I thought I was doing everything just fine and was just cursed with pain, once I understood what I needed to do differently and did the moves correctly, the pain went away, now when my chronic back condition (more than just scoliosis) is painful, I dance to make the pain go away, what joy!!

Scoliosis or lordosis are just just a few examples of problems students may need to overcome. As a teacher, I have noticed that students think their bodies are in the correct posture, or that they are doing the moves correctly but years of being disconnected from their bodies either because of physical or emotional injuries prevents them from actually feeling how they are moving or standing. That is one reason why this dance can be so healing. by reconnecting with the physical body one can remove or lessen both physical and emotional blocks. It can take years of course, I am still emotionally and physically blocked but now I know that and can address the issues. I have even see effect in teenagers so it is not just age-related.

I had a student who had been hit by a truck and was probably the most disconnected student I ever had. After just a few classes and a couple of private sessions she commented to me that the dance was freeing her up in ways she thought were impossible. She is still can't do the moves properly but the benefit to her outweighs that.

Marya

 

[Reen.Blom]

As a teacher, I have noticed that students think their bodies are in the correct posture, or that they are doing the moves correctly but years of being disconnected from their bodies either because of physical or emotional injuries prevents them from actually feeling how they are moving or standing. That is one reason why this dance can be so healing. by reconnecting with the physical body one can remove or lessen both physical and emotional blocks. It can take years of course, I am still emotionally and physically blocked but now I know that and can address the issues. I have even see effect in teenagers so it is not just age-related.

How very true! Very few people are really connected to their bodies! Re-connecting is the wayto go! Brilliant post!

Best wishes from Alexander Lowen fan.....LOL