Myths and Misconceptions

[Brea]

Hi,

I just wanted to ask what myths/misconceptions you have all heard about this dance, and whether you think there is any truth to any of them.

For instance, one thing I have heard is 'will belly dance make my belly bigger?' The germ of truth (for me) in this is that it certainly won't give you a six pack...I notice that mine is muscular and hard but in a curved-out, rather than curved-in, shape.

I am interested to see your replies!

 

[KuteNurse]

Well I will list the biggest belly dancing myth. That belly dancers are like strippers and perform only for men.

 

[Aniseteph]

Anything about prehistoric roots, temples, goddesses, priestesses, sacred mystic rites etc etc.

 

[Brea]

You GO, Anisteph!!!! That is the main problem I seem to have the most often.

What I am also interested in is: does this myth carry a grain of truth, do you think? And what would that be?

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

Anything about prehistoric roots, temples, goddesses, priestesses, sacred mystic rites etc etc.

Haha, I agree:lol:
Brea, I think there can be some truth in this stuff, this means, I don't find it improbable that there had existed an ancient form of belly dance in the Mediterranean and ancient Middle Eastern cultures. It can be that this ancient kind of belly dance was indeed a sacred dance, dedicated to some Goddesses or whatever. But the question for me is: what does it give me today? And what does it have to do with the modern forms of belly dance? My opinion is, that it doesn't give me anything to know that there existed an ancient belly dance and also that we will never know what differences and similarities could exist between the ancient and the modern belly dance, since there didn't exist videos and DVDs in ancient times:lol: For me everything one can tell about ancient dances (not only belly dance) is pure speculation. Interesting but unrealistic.

 

[Brea]

Chryssanthi-

I totally agree. I have the same problem with studying Scotland and peoples' weird ideas about Druidism.

A question regarding the goddess issue: how do we teach this so it is unoffensive to students who have come to learn for that reason?

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

.
A question regarding the goddess issue: how do we teach this so it is unoffensive to students who have come to learn for that reason?

Just try to be objective and don't make fun of the matter. Just tell them that there are theories about that, but we cannot know for sure. And tell them that this is not your speciality. I think if they want to learn BD for this reason, you are the wrong teacher for them anyway, because they are looking for something different than you do. I believe that it is important to attract the right people to your classes, who are interested in your perspective of the dance.

 

[Marya]

Myths and Archetypes

Haha, I agree:lol:
Brea, I think there can be some truth in this stuff, this means, I don't find it improbable that there had existed an ancient form of belly dance in the Mediterranean and ancient Middle Eastern cultures. It can be that this ancient kind of belly dance was indeed a sacred dance, dedicated to some Goddesses or whatever. But the question for me is: what does it give me today? And what does it have to do with the modern forms of belly dance? My opinion is, that it doesn't give me anything to know that there existed an ancient belly dance and also that we will never know what differences and similarities could exist between the ancient and the modern belly dance, since there didn't exist videos and DVDs in ancient times:lol: For me everything one can tell about ancient dances (not only belly dance) is pure speculation. Interesting but unrealistic.

I have been thinking about this a lot actually. I just for the first time saw the Joseph Campbell interviews that were filmed in 1988. I was out of the country when they were aired on Public Television and I never saw them before although I had heard of Joseph Campbell.

While Joseph Campbell doesn't address Middle Eastern Dance he does talk about the Archetypes and the persistance and universality of myth and the role myth plays in our society. I started to think that the myths we encounter as Belly Dancers may or may not be true in the sense that they are historically accurate and can be proven by ancient records, but that Belly Dance somehow triggers a response in us that manifests these Archetypes, especially the Goddess one. We desperately want to be connected to our roots as far back as we can and Archetypes being basically a product of the uncouncious do not yield to logic or scholarship. The myths become true for an individual who needs them.

Coincidentally, I also watched again my video of Suhaila Salimpour's recreations of Bal Anat's dances. Jamilia Salimpour (Suhailia's Mother) named her troup after a Goddess, so we are starting out with myth from the very beginning.

The very first dance on the video is the "Birth Magic" dance with a long haired, topless, masked dancer undulating to a mizmar for way too long. The video also includes a snake dance, a basket dance, and some ethnic dances from Morroco, Tunisia and Turkey. Many of these theatricalized folk dances are still performed almost identically today but are thought to be completely authentic.

In these Bal Anat recreations are just about every myth that we still hear. The question I have is did Jamilia Salimpour create the first theatrical dances to represent these myths or did she encounter them elsewher? There is a lot of writing out there on women and healing through archetypes, for example "Women who run with the Wolves" by Clarissa Pinkola Estés "Daughters of the Goddess" by Wendy Griffin.

Jamilia herself acknowledges that although her troupe's Renaissance Pleasure Faire performances were perceived as "authentic" they were "half real and half hokum"

Given the persistance of this Archetype, I would guess that acknowledging the need for the myth then explaining that myths are stories to help us get through life and not history might be a better way to debunk the belief that the myths are history.

This is a bit of a ramble, but I am starting to think we are stuck with these myths because of the strong unconcious element.

Marya

 

[Brea]

Marya,

I do fear that we are stuck with them, both in bellydance and in Scottish cultural studies. I think that people persist in believing something that is true 'for them'. For instance, I have a tribal tattoo of Jesus on my arm. I am not a traditional Christian (seriously, you would NEVER guess). The tattoo is difficult to decipher, on purpose, because I don't want people making snap judgments about me based on my faith. When I tell them that it is a representation of Jesus, some of them absolutely refuse to see it and say that they prefer to see whatever it was they saw initially instead...because it is preferable to them, because images of Jesus are offensive to them. So even though it is a depiction of Jesus, and they know it to be so, they still would rather believe something untrue because it is more comfortable. (If you want to see the tattoo, click on my signature link)

I have also heard tell that the 'birthing' origin of bellydance is a myth. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Joseph Campbell

I have been thinking about this a lot actually. I just for the first time saw the Joseph Campbell interviews that were filmed in 1988. I was out of the country when they were aired on Public Television and I never saw them before although I had heard of Joseph Campbell.

While Joseph Campbell doesn't address Middle Eastern Dance he does talk about the Archetypes and the persistance and universality of myth and the role myth plays in our society. I started to think that the myths we encounter as Belly Dancers may or may not be true in the sense that they are historically accurate and can be proven by ancient records, but that Belly Dance somehow triggers a response in us that manifests these Archetypes, especially the Goddess one. We desperately want to be connected to our roots as far back as we can and Archetypes being basically a product of the uncouncious do not yield to logic or scholarship. The myths become true for an individual who needs them.

Coincidentally, I also watched again my video of Suhaila Salimpour's recreations of Bal Anat's dances. Jamilia Salimpour (Suhailia's Mother) named her troup after a Goddess, so we are starting out with myth from the very beginning.

The very first dance on the video is the "Birth Magic" dance with a long haired, topless, masked dancer undulating to a mizmar for way too long. The video also includes a snake dance, a basket dance, and some ethnic dances from Morroco, Tunisia and Turkey. Many of these theatricalized folk dances are still performed almost identically today but are thought to be completely authentic.

In these Bal Anat recreations are just about every myth that we still hear. The question I have is did Jamilia Salimpour create the first theatrical dances to represent these myths or did she encounter them elsewher? There is a lot of writing out there on women and healing through archetypes, for example "Women who run with the Wolves" by Clarissa Pinkola Estés "Daughters of the Goddess" by Wendy Griffin.

Jamilia herself acknowledges that although her troupe's Renaissance Pleasure Faire performances were perceived as "authentic" they were "half real and half hokum"

Given the persistance of this Archetype, I would guess that acknowledging the need for the myth then explaining that myths are stories to help us get through life and not history might be a better way to debunk the belief that the myths are history.

This is a bit of a ramble, but I am starting to think we are stuck with these myths because of the strong unconcious element.

Marya

Dear Marya,
I was introduced to the work of Joseph Campbell through the Bill Moyers special on PBS. His wife was a dancer, though not a Middle Eastern dancer. I have since read several of his books as well. He does have a rather Jungian outlook on mythology and the Collective Unconscious, and explains it well in "The inner reaches of outer space" and other books. I very much admire him. I think he died a few years ago and his wife, if I remember correctly, died before him. I do cite Jamila and a few others for perpetuating myths that have no basis in fact, and for being the people who first made it okay to call any damn thing we want, "belly dance". It makes it so very difficult for rhe dance now in many ways, but years ago it was easy to see that it was going to lead to exactly what is taking place now, with stuff like "Bellynesian". I like Jamila as a person very much, but I am so glad that she finally came out with that in public.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[cathy]

Morocco has written about the evidence she encountered for the connection between two of the movements found in Oriental dance and birth rituals. Check out the articles on her website at: casbahdance.org.

I know Andrea Deagon has mentioned previously on this forum that she is working on an ancient origins of the precursors of this dance.

What I tend to think is that the origins of social dancing and the origins of spiritual or religious dancing are so ancient that we will never be able to figure out which came first. Perhaps in those days the distinction would not even have been meaningful?

There is a lot of fantasy and theatricalized goddess worship, sacred rite, phaoronic dance out there. This is fine as long as we are clear about the difference between what we know about the historical evidence and what we are conjecturing, making up, and acting out fantasies about. I would think you could explain this to students interested in goddess dance in a way that would be both honest and gentle.

There are also lots of folk dances and rituals (Guedra, Zar) where the historical basis is much better known for how they were and are actually performed in cultures of origin. Therefore it is possible to perform both more authentic and more theatricalized versions.

Then there is Dervish, which has its religious ritual form and its theatricalized entertainment form (can't remember what this is called at the moment--colorful skirts, flags, Egyptian form?)

P.S. Tannoura is what this is called

Cathy

 

[Aniseteph]

A question regarding the goddess issue: how do we teach this so it is unoffensive to students who have come to learn for that reason?

You can always resort to the advertising cliche "believed by many to...." !

I don't buy into the ancient stuff (did you notice?); how can anyone tell what went on in mystic temples or what dance goddesses did on their way through the realms of the spirits etc etc?

But I do believe that taking up belly dance can have very positive effects on self-esteem, body-image etc. and open up a world where it's OK to dress up and be gorgeous and get lost in beautiful music and dance your heart out*, and I suppose if you are into the inner goddess thing then yes, there's your goddess aspect. But it's a personal thing, an interpretation the individual brings to the dance rather than some mystic aspect of belly dance, certainly not something a teacher should be foisting on her students. IMO it should be up to the student whether she is doing a vertical 8 as a symbol of infinity and oneness with the universe, a fertility dance, a nice hip move, or an interesting interplay of various muscle groups.

My interpretation is that it ticks a lot of deep down psychological needs for me as a person. If anyone wants to look at it as feeding/finding the inner goddess that's great, but it doesn't give them license to make stuff up about priestesses.

* this bit could apply to someone discovering his inner drag queen and singing Barbra Streisand karaoke, but you don't see many people getting goddessy and mystical about that. Or maybe you do and I just move in the wrong circles :think:

 

[cathy]

I read a theory that dance and music co-evolved--or even that dance is the older art form, based on the idea that dance might have been done to the accompaniment of simple drumming possibly without melody.

If this is true then I think it's possible to imagine that dance could be the oldest form of social bonding ritual other than mating and hunting. If this is so then it is probably a deep instinct. And in Western cultures we are very cut off from this instinct from the most part. We have to seek it out. There are disco nightclubs, college parties, raves, classes, and performances, but very little dance as part of normal social gatherings. In my experience anyway. I NEVER saw anyone in my family dance ever. I don't remember seeing any friend dance until college parties. (And I can't remember anyone singing in my family except for way back when I was tiny my mom would sing nursery songs when she put me to bed).

So Aniseteph when you say it ticks deep psychological points for you, I agree it does for me too and my theory is that I was put in touch with this instinct only at the relatively late age of 37 or so (when I started MED).

I can well imagine how some might take this feeling to mean they were enacting ancient priestess rites, especially when combined with coming from a culture that is known to be one of the world's oldest and (to the West) one of the longest romanticized.

Goddess worship and ancient temple priestess dreams are not my cup of tea but hey, we all find our own meaning in everything we do. Again as long as we realize what is coming from our dreams vs. from reality, no problem.

I like the drag queen bit too. Cathy

 

[Brea]

Hi,

I don't know why but I have this feeling that the birthing ritual was written about as mythology as well...somewhere. I have already read Morocco's articles. I suppose I have to say I take a lot of things about this dance with a grain of salt; I tend to listen to Arabic people when they tell me about it, and none of them I've ever known has said that (because why would men do it, then, you see?) It's hard to know for certain. I think the sensuality of it is the only thing that is really solid...AND that there is no goddess basis of the dance.

The thing is, the goddess stuff is doubly frustrating for me because I am also a Scottish historian...too many times when people find this out they immediately ask me if I've read the Mists of Avalon. *SIIGH!* I hope that it is self-evident why this annoys me. Anyway, I seem to have chosen the two things in life to be passionate about where I will always have to deal with people who think the goddess stuff about it. I tend to be rather harsh in general and if I get people like that in my classes they will be told, outright, that this is not the true history. Maybe I'm just shooting myself in the foot there; so many people make a lot of money selling this warrior goddess bellydance image. That's actually the part I really can't stand, that other teachers use this as a method of moneymaking and instruction, sending people out into the world without any idea at all about the true background of this dance.

 

[Hyacinth]

A girl at work found out I do bellydance & wanted me to show her some moves. While I was demonstrating some horizontal figure 8's, she asked me, all shy like, "Is it true that you have to pretend you've got a pencil in there and you're drawing a figure 8?" "In where???" She points to vaginal area. Um, no!:lol:

So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot. I guess it could work -anyone else heard of this?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it sounded like a myth to me!

 

[Brea]

HAHAHA Hyacinth!!! I laughed so hard when I read that! I'v never heard it but it certainly is an interesting response to guys writing their names in the snow!

 

[Mya]

So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot.

i swear i almost fell off my chair with that one. that was great. i haven't laughed that hard in ages. AGES! :lol::lol::lol:

 

[lizaj]

A girl at work found out I do bellydance & wanted me to show her some moves. While I was demonstrating some horizontal figure 8's, she asked me, all shy like, "Is it true that you have to pretend you've got a pencil in there and you're drawing a figure 8?" "In where???" She points to vaginal area. Um, no!:lol:

So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot. I guess it could work -anyone else heard of this?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it sounded like a myth to me!

Ah yes the pencil in the privates...quoted on an ancient UK belly dance instruction DVD...well ancient as in a coupla decades ago!

 

[Aniseteph]

Maybe it's a British thing - my teacher mentioned it too (amongst other less :shok: ideas) as a way of getting the hang of hip circles. Any one else heard f@^^y-over-the-fence as a strategy for learning reverse undulations? :redface: Must be a Brit thing because it's useless for reverse undulations in the US :lol:

Sorry, this is off topic. Can't think of anything else, we did navel jewels somewhere else.... how about the dance-to-please-your-sultan thing?

 

[karena]

Maybe it's a British thing - my teacher mentioned it too (amongst other less :shok: ideas) as a way of getting the hang of hip circles. Any one else heard f@^^y-over-the-fence as a strategy for learning reverse undulations? :redface: Must be a Brit thing because it's useless for reverse undulations in the US :lol:

I've never heard the pencil thing, but my main teacher isn't very old skool. But at least it communicates that the movement is internal not just skeletal, doesn't it?

And yes I've heard the f@^^y-over-the-fence, but I did wonder if it was American as f@^^y isn't offensive in American English. I suppose it depends where the fence is :think: :lol: I remember trying to figure it out and then must have needed to concentrate in class again :lol: