Is this normal?

[Suhad]

I have been dancing at a ME restaurant about 80 miles from my house periodically for the last year and a half or so. The contract (verbal, not written), no matter who has been the agent booking the dancer, says that it is for 2 15 minute shows, pay is $50 for the night ($25 per set). It's not much money but it's about the going rate for this area; they're not very generous to the musicians either so it's not just the dancers.

When there are live musicians, on Saturday nights, the sets tend to run closer to 20 minutes, which I and the other dancers are perfectly OK with as the musicians are really great to work with, and make up for the lack of pay. The clientele of this place tends not to tip for the most part; it is the rare dancer who makes more than $10 or $15 for the entire night.

The first time I danced there, they said I was going to do a 25 or 30 minute set each time and I refused, saying the deal was for 15 minutes, and that was that. I think they try that with all the new dancers.

That is the background. Here is what happened the last time I danced there:

I was called very late in the morning by the agent who was desperate to find a dancer as the scheduled dancer had called out sick. I was reluctant but agreed to do it as I was also getting over a cold. I had worked until 2 am the night before, and had to go back to bed because my brain was fried. When I woke up again I put together two sets, one 8 seconds short of 15 minutes and one 12 seconds over 15 minutes. These are probably the shortest sets I've ever put together, usually even with the 15 minute guideline in place they're more like 16 or 17. This was for two reasons: one, I chose only songs I know very well, and two, I wasn't sure I could last more than 15 minutes with my chest cold still hanging on...I'd been hitting my inhaler pretty regularly for days. Anyway, the music burning took a lot more time than I'd intended, issues with my computer. So...that left me with very little time.

I practiced, took a quick shower, and my husband drove while I changed into my costume in the car -- we ran into very heavy traffic and our cutting it to the minute became showing up 10 minutes late. It's an hour and a half drive if we don't hit any traffic. I did call the restaurant and explain the situation, and according to the person I spoke with that was fine. Of course they were pissed when I showed up even still.

So, after my first performance, I changed into my normal clothes and came out to sit with my husband and our friends. One of the waitresses came up to me and said that the owner was mad because my set wasn't long enough, and my next set 'has to be longer'. I said they're both about 15 minutes, and they're on CD, I can't change them. She repeated what she had just said. I repeated what I said, and ultimately the keyboard player played a song for me for the last song of the second set, which put it at about 20 minutes.

So the next day, the keyboard player who was there to play in between the sets called me and said that the owner said to tell me I must dance for two 30 minute sets. I politely refused and said that if this was the case then we would need to renegotiate the rate because that's double the dancing for the same rate of pay. He countered by saying 'all the other dancers do it' and I told him that was not true, I know the other dancers and I've been there to see other dancers, and they don't dance for 30 minute sets. I even told him that's crazy, that it's too much dancing for the people to watch. He just kept repeating that I needed to do it, with the implication being that if I didn't I wouldn't be allowed to dance there anymore.

I called my agent who basically will not back me up on this, because she is the new agent for this place, and is afraid of standing up for us because she 'wants a place for [her] students to dance'. She actually tried to tell me that the other dancers DO dance for 30 minute sets!! This after she's been there with me many times!

So, I spoke with my instructor who is also the instructor for several of the dancers who work there, she got quite upset and said that if they are doing 30 minute sets it's because they're being intimidated into doing it and because they don't know any better. I'm sure she will speak with her students so that is not an issue; I also spoke with the drummer who is my drum instructor and he was shocked as well, saying 30 minutes was too long to dance.

Am I just new to this whole politics thing or what? What would you experienced people do in this situation? I dance there for the experience pretty much exclusively, I don't need the money (not like I'm making any anyway, they make me pay for my dinner as well).

 

[Aisha Azar]

Club and restaurant dancing

Dear Suhad,
You might as well get used to having issues with owners and other dancers if you are going to work the club/ restaurant circuit. Many dancers are too dumb to figure out that some owners will play them against each other in order to get away with paying as little as possible. Some dancers will do anything... and I mean ANYTHING to be dancing in a club or restaurant, including dance for free. I know of one very famous dancer who went to work in a club in Seattle on a plan called "Guarenteed wage", in which she broached the owner with an idea that she would dance for free as long as she made a certain amount of tips. Then he of course, expected all the dancers to do that. Fortunately she was really rude to the band and did not last long. Many dancers also have problems with the band, though I have been very fortunate in that way.
The thing is that you will have to decide how much abuse you are personally willing to take, because there will always be more dancers that the owners can hire, just waiting to take your place. I am hoping for your sake that you would rather have your own self respect and dignity more than you want that job. Many dancers don't.
The other issue that goes along with this is that dancers train other dancers to perform for free by not paying them to dance in their shows. I don't usually do that either, so I dance a lot less for other dancers than some people,but it is the principle of the thing. I also pay every dancer on my stage when I sponsor a professional event.
OM the other hand, if we are not paying each other, how can we expect our students to understand the value of performance? No wonder so many of them buy into the bullshit that owners pull on them.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[sedoniaraqs]

(This is probably going to sting.)

Honestly, I think you are very, very desperate to dance if you regularly dance to drive over a 2 hr round trip and dance for $50.

At today's gas prices, $50 is hardly paying your gas for the 160 mile round trip you are making, not to mention your travel time, your prep time, your costumes, and finally, your expertise as a dancer.

Then, to add insult to injury, you helped THEM out by coming in at the last minute when you were sick and tired, and they bitch because one set was 10 seconds short, and (sorry to be rude) you have to ask whether you should accept this treatment?

You really need to tell the owner that you will not only NOT double your set length for the same rate, but you will no longer accept the original terms either.

Yes, you will most definitely lose the gig. So what? There should be no hesitation. IF there is, I would have to conclude that you are so driven to feed your ego that you will prostrate your self-esteem and self worth just for those 15 (err, thirty, no sixty) minutes in the limelight.

Phase two would be to talk to area dancers about pressuring for increased rates. If enough people band together, it can work. If not, don't dance in restaurants.

I once was trying to work a deal with a cheapskate restaurant (who was hiring untrained girls for $20 for the whole evening) by offering to do 3 *short* sets for $60. This is terribly, terribly low, but it was a neighborhood business and, more importantly, it was made very clear that it was a limited engagement. It did the limited engagement, they didn't want to pay more, I walked away. They went out of business shortly thereafter.

Sedonia

 

[Aisha Azar]

Clubs, etc.

Dear Sedonia,
I'm giving you Rep for having enough self respect to walk away!!
Regards,
A'isha

( Or at least I will when the Rep links allows it!!)

 

[Suhad]

No, it's not about feed my ego or being desperate to dance, it's about getting experience!!! In fact I am rather insulted by that remark. I was TRYING to help out what I thought was a friend, the agent, by doing this. NOT feed my ego. I am quite competent in my normal life, have a following for other things besides dancing, and don't need the money or the ego stroke.

I live over 50 miles from the nearest ME restaurant, so it's not like it's that much longer. Believe me, it's not uncommon in Arizona to drive an hour each way for a gig, or for one's job. Most of the people I work with do the same; very few actually live anywhere near where they work, and if they do it's happenstance not planned.

The reason I posted is because I was quite dismayed to find that my agent/friend, whom I have believed for several years now to be ethical, now will not stand up for what is right because she is afraid of losing the place and having no place for her students to dance. I would have thought she would be thinking more long term regarding the pay and stature of this dance she professes to love, than worrying that her students might not get to dance in a restaurant if she stands up for what the contract was negotiated at.

I CAN walk away from this. I would rather get ideas on how to possibly resolve it to the benefit of the restaurant who will not end up with what they were getting which is dancers who look good in a costume but can NOT dance (that's how my friend got into the agent thing there), the benefit of my 'friend' who will have a place for her students to dance, and for me and the other dancers who are already there.

So thanks for basically insulting me and not giving any constructive ideas.

 

[Shanazel]

I dance there for the experience pretty much exclusively

Looks like you got some valuable experience, Suhad, and in the long run, it may be well worth the price you paid for it. If you dance for pay and don't have a decent agent to act for you, you have to be a business woman first and a dancer second- professional dancing is not all applause and roses in your dressing room... if you even have a dressing room.

While I was writing this post, you made your own post above. I don't think you can resolve this particular situation to the benefit of the restaurant, and really can't imagine why you would want to. If an employer is going to take advantage once, it is unlikely he or she can be rehabilitated. About all you can do is say the hell with it, cut your losses, and look for a new venue.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Hi Suhad, If you are dancing for experience then what have you learned?
Yasmine

 

[sedoniaraqs]

Suhad, one of the main reasons rates are so low in so many places is because there are so many dancers willing to take low rates because they "need experience". In fact, there are practically an endless pool of dancers who need experience and will dance for next to nothing to get it.

Just because your agent/teacher/fellow dancers are doing it, doesn't make it smart.

I'm sorry that you were insulted, but you post on a board asking for experienced dancers' opinions, and I gave my opinion.

I am also at least 50 miles from a Middle Eastern restaurant, now that the cheap-o place went out of business. It makes no difference. If you are in a spread-out and remote place, the fees you ask should reflect the necessary travel time. Any other good or service that someone in a remote area needed or wanted would reflect the travel/shipping time.

Sedonia

 

[Suhad]

Sedonia, so do you dance anywhere?

I am perfectly willing to walk away from this; the experience I have gotten is that I am over a lot of my fear of performing. The upside to performing at this place is that when I first started, it was almost never busy, so I was able to make all the mistakes that new dancers do in a relatively low risk environment. Recently they have become very busy, but they are still in that 'get more for less' mode.

I dance there this coming Friday again, to my own CD's again, and I plan to keep them to the 16-17 minute mark as usual, on principle. The keyboardist called me again yesterday afternoon but I didn't answer my phone, and he didn't leave a message; I think he thought I was the scheduled dancer for last night as well, and wanted to 'remind me' that I'm supposed to dance for 30 minutes. Yeah, right, whatever.....I DO have self respect. And I can be like a dog with a bone when I get something in my head...and this bone I'm not letting go of. If they want 30 minute sets, they can pay me double or I won't dance.

I know that nearly every ME establishment tries this; that part didn't surprise me. What surprised, disappointed, and yes hurt me is that my 'friend' isn't standing up for the right thing because she has her own agenda. Which WILL hurt the dance community even more in the long run, simply because it will once again drive down the price and the quality.

 

[sedoniaraqs]

Sedonia, so do you dance anywhere?

Yes, I do. I just got back from a private party where I performed two sets for a great crowd and got paid a nice wage. However, there are not a huge number of private gigs around here, so we largely create our own venues. My dance group and I put on a stage show on our university campus about once per semester, and we hold an informal dance show at a local restaurant/coffee house every few months also. They let us charge a door fee and split the proceeds with them in exchange for using their back room. There is alot to be said for putting on your own shows and events. Potential to make a decent profit, or if that doesn't happen, at least no one else has profited at your expense, and you are in control of the event.

We also do quite a few a few charity performances for educational and community events on campus and elsewhere in our town. This spring we will will dance and present our student group dancing at the International Cultures show, Africa week later in the spring, Arts Education Festival for children also later in the spring. The latter three are not paid gigs but are for good causes and are part of belonging to the community here, so they are worthwhile donations.

Regards,

Sedonia

 

[Mosaic]

Suhad,
Regarding your friend/agent, personally you need to call her on her not supporting you. If she is a true friend she will listen, if she still doesn't stand by you ( which in turn aids other dancers when ground rules are laid) then honestly she is not a friend nor a very good agent. maybe you need to be your own agent???? Write a some sort of guidelines and payment for X amount of time per set, sit down with the owner, not the keyboard player, he sounds like a lacky because the owner doesn't want to deal with the situation.... make the owner deal with it, he is the one who pays you.

Explain to him how long it takes to get ready and distance travelled etc, explain that $50 is extremely fair for 15 minutes and that many other belly dancers won't even get out of bed for that LOL!

The owner may jack up, and then you will have to weigh things up, or try to come to some compromise with the owner if you want to keep the job.

Here in Australia, greek restaurants often have belly dancers, do you have any Greek places near to where you are? Maybe try for some new places, and immediately lay the ground rules with some form of contract.

I am sorry that is all I can suggest. maybe it will give you some little bit of food for thought.
~Mosaic

 

[lizaj]

I cannot believe the rates in the US. It's a rare (good)dancer here who dances for less than 100$ for a 20 min set and some demand more.
If you don't ask for more you don't get it. Of course we have the fools who dance for a plate of pasta and sweat away all night but they are generally used as a knock about!
How can that rate of pay be acceptable? You are an entertainer who has invested time and money in music, training and suitable costuming. You have got to worth more. S*d "experience" and demand your worth plus travelling!This isn't a hobby, it's way of being rewarded for your talent and the work you do to bring in more customers.
If you accept a low rate of pay you are setting a precedent for all dancers. All should take a stand and let' em do without if they won't pay. They are not doing you a favour. You are an employee who demands proper recompense.

 

[Reen.Blom]

Suhad, sweetie pie, dont let them walk over you! There are people like that that try to get every last bit of you! (and other dancers!) If you can afford the luxury to stand up for your opinion and your dignity(some people depend on the show money) that by all means do so!!!

Hugs and best wishes,
reen.blom

 

[Reen.Blom]

Suhad,
Regarding your friend/agent, personally you need to call her on her not supporting you. If she is a true friend she will listen, if she still doesn't stand by you ( which in turn aids other dancers when ground rules are laid) then honestly she is not a friend nor a very good agent. maybe you need to be your own agent???? Write a some sort of guidelines and payment for X amount of time per set, sit down with the owner, not the keyboard player, he sounds like a lacky because the owner doesn't want to deal with the situation.... make the owner deal with it, he is the one who pays you.

Explain to him how long it takes to get ready and distance travelled etc, explain that $50 is extremely fair for 15 minutes and that many other belly dancers won't even get out of bed for that LOL!

The owner may jack up, and then you will have to weigh things up, or try to come to some compromise with the owner if you want to keep the job.

Here in Australia, greek restaurants often have belly dancers, do you have any Greek places near to where you are? Maybe try for some new places, and immediately lay the ground rules with some form of contract.

I am sorry that is all I can suggest. maybe it will give you some little bit of food for thought.
~Mosaic

Mosaic,

This is the way to go ! Bravo!:clap:

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance rates, etc.

I cannot believe the rates in the US. It's a rare (good)dancer here who dances for less than 100$ for a 20 min set and some demand more.
If you don't ask for more you don't get it. Of course we have the fools who dance for a plate of pasta and sweat away all night but they are generally used as a knock about!
How can that rate of pay be acceptable? You are an entertainer who has invested time and money in music, training and suitable costuming. You have got to worth more. S*d "experience" and demand your worth plus travelling!This isn't a hobby, it's way of being rewarded for your talent and the work you do to bring in more customers.
If you accept a low rate of pay you are setting a precedent for all dancers. All should take a stand and let' em do without if they won't pay. They are not doing you a favour. You are an employee who demands proper recompense.

Dear Lisaj,
The United States is a great, huge, country, with many economic pockets with different economic situations. Regarding financial compensation, one can not ask in the back woods of Oregon what they can get in New York City. My rates are $90 for a 15 minute set at a party, but club and restaurant rates are MUCH lower. At times, not half that if the owners have cutie pies in scanty costumes all lines up waiting to dance, ( or, in many cases, whatever it is we want to call their darling little gyrations), for tips. Now, if said cutie pie can dance well, I think I am about twice as offended that she would sell herself so short.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[lizaj]

The UK is a small country with huge variations in rates of pay and housing and entertainment costs. That is no reason why a dancer should sell herself short. What is the point of dancing if you don't cover your expenses?
Oh so Little Miss NO Brain-NO talent will dance. So what! Let her make a prat of herself and be exploited. You demand a decent rate and eventually the penny will drop that the clientele are NOT impressed and the restauranteur has to think about quality to pull in the diners. It takes time but it's about working together. The only restaurants here who regularly have dancers and survivehire good dancers. Of course they TRY to get them cheaply but luckily good dancers in the community have stuck to their guns to refuse less pay.
I don't dance in retaurants. I am too old and unfashionably larger. But I go to them and even the non belly dancers in the audience will soon make fun of a cr*ppy dancer in dross clothing. As I say the ones who survive in my town and I know that for other nearby cities too, put on tasteful and talented dancers with good costuming.
So Mr Conman Costas says drive 50 miles and I pay you £20 sterling for the night. Dancers would laugh in his face here and stay home with her fluffy slippers ,watching a good DVD, waiting for the restauranteur with the respect and savvy to give her a decent rate for her efforts.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Clubs, etc.

Dear Lisaj,

The UK is a small country with huge variations in rates of pay and housing and entertainment costs. That is no reason why a dancer should sell herself short. What is the point of dancing if you don't cover your expenses?

A. writes- Personally, this is my job and I need to do more than cover expenses.


Oh so Little Miss NO Brain-NO talent will dance. So what! Let her make a prat of herself and be exploited. You demand a decent rate and eventually the penny will drop that the clientele are NOT impressed and the restauranteur has to think about quality to pull in the diners.


A. writes- If only it really worked that way!!! Most people have not been trained to tell a good dancer from a bad one and often can not unless they are dancing practically side by side. They often go in for the girl that is the cutest and friendliest. the clientele are impressed by things like the dancer looking good, the dancer having an outgoing personality and being willing to chat up the customers, etc. Often it is not about the dance at all in clubs in restaurants.

It takes time but it's about working together. The only restaurants here who regularly have dancers and survivehire good dancers. Of course they TRY to get them cheaply but luckily good dancers in the community have stuck to their guns to refuse less pay.

A. writes- That's nice because I can not say the same for most of the clubs I have been in in the U.S.

I don't dance in retaurants. I am too old and unfashionably larger. But I go to them and even the non belly dancers in the audience will soon make fun of a cr*ppy dancer in dross clothing. As I say the ones who survive in my town and I know that for other nearby cities too, put on tasteful and talented dancers with good costuming.

A. writes- Good costuming seems to be a must, but tasteful and talented dancing are often not even the same thing!! Dina and Fifi are both cases in point; both are talented.... but tasteful???

So Mr Conman Costas says drive 50 miles and I pay you £20 sterling for the night. Dancers would laugh in his face here and stay home with her fluffy slippers ,watching a good DVD, waiting for the restauranteur with the respect and savvy to give her a decent rate for her efforts.

A. writes- Too bad all dancers do not get that! Many do not seem to. They instead seem to need the spotlight too badly to wait until the can do a decent job of dancing.
Regards, A'isha

 

[Suhad]

OK, regarding the pay:

I said in my first post that $50 is the going rate in my neck of the woods. There is a restaurant here that pays only $20 for a nearly half hour set...and they have their own in house dancers who are quite happy to do it. Why? Because they walk out with several hundred dollars worth of tips in an average night.

This I think is the biggest problem. The restaurant owners, and as a result the dancers, rely on tips to make the wage decent. Which is great (although I still think it's rather crappy of the owner) if the place DOES tip. When it doesn't tip well, when the owner doesn't start the tipping and show that it's OK and this is how it's done, THAT's when the low wage becomes a sticking point.

Recently in my community there has been a price war of sorts, and I hear through the grapevine that many places that were formerly paying $50 are now paying $35 for the same set.

There really is no respect for the dance here, or for the musicians. My drum instructor says it has always been that way here, and he doesn't know why either...he moved here originally in the early 80's but had to go back to New York City because he couldn't support his family.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

OK, regarding the pay:

I said in my first post that $50 is the going rate in my neck of the woods. There is a restaurant here that pays only $20 for a nearly half hour set...and they have their own in house dancers who are quite happy to do it. Why? Because they walk out with several hundred dollars worth of tips in an average night.

This I think is the biggest problem. The restaurant owners, and as a result the dancers, rely on tips to make the wage decent. Which is great (although I still think it's rather crappy of the owner) if the place DOES tip. When it doesn't tip well, when the owner doesn't start the tipping and show that it's OK and this is how it's done, THAT's when the low wage becomes a sticking point.


Dear Suhad,
And then, what do you do with dancers like me? I never did like going out for tips and mostly did not. If someone close to the dance floor made it a point that they wanted to tip me, I would usually go over and acknowledge them, take the tip with my hand, and thank them and move on. Going out for tips was just never anything that I saw as enhancing the dance when I worked in clubs and restaurants. On the other hand, I also was not relying on that money to feed my kids as some dancers are forced to do because they do not make a good wage.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Suhad]

Aisha, I feel your pain on this one! I feel like I am 'trolling for tips' when I go table to table, so I try to just give a very short time at each one. I ask how the food is, or play a little with the kids, or try to get someone up to dance a little, but I don't ever expect tips and I feel weird about getting them, at least as far as the standard here is for people to put them in one's bra strap or hip belt.

Update to the story: I did some research of my own, just to confirm what I already knew -- the longest sets that dancers who dance there do is 20 minutes. If they are dancing with the live band, they may go a little longer if they are getting good tips and the band sees that, otherwise it's 20 minutes. I tried to contact my friend/agent several times, she hasn't returned my phone calls. HOWEVER. This morning she emailed me to say that she had spoken with the restaurant owner, who stated HIS expectation is that we will dance for 15 minutes....and then another 10 or 15 for tips. Pardon me, but isn't that the 25 or thirty minutes I have just been disputing???

I emailed her back saying that I will do sets that are around 20 minutes because that is the standard (and I gave examples), but no longer, and said that if he doesn't want me back because of that it's fine, I don't need the money and I don't want the experience that badly. I told her I am angry that she won't stand up for us dancers, and I am angry because he thinks he is getting something for nothing. I also told her that if there ARE any dancers dancing for that long, it's because they've been intimidated into doing so, and don't know any better.

I am angry now even more, because on the way home I realized that he is essentially wanting (minute wise anyway) THREE sets for the price of two.

*sigh* I am scheduled to dance there this Friday, but I am angry. I would say forget it, but I stick with my commitments, and I have several coworkers from the hospital planning to come. So...I will go, do my 20 minutes each, and if anyone says anything to me, I am going to speak with the owner directly and give him a piece of my mind. I am going to try not to burn bridges though regarding the larger ME restaurant community -- I do want to be able to dance at other places!

The ironic thing is that the drummer for the band called me yesterday and was upset that I'm not dancing on Saturday, he was hoping it was me.