Amanda (was Aziyade)
Well-known member
Did anybody else see this piece as a metaphor about dance and the folly of youth?
Or am I just looking too hard...
Or am I just looking too hard...
???
- Thread starter Moon
- Start date
Amanda (was Aziyade)
Well-known member
This is an interesting post, and I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you. Or both!
Well, I view bellydance as primarily an ethnic dance that we borrow from the Arabs/Turks. Since we're borrowing it, I feel we have to return it undamaged, as if we'd borrwed a book from them. We can dogear a page here and there, and maybe get away with hightlighting a passage, but we can't just rip pages out of the book, or rip the cover off and then return it.
(Maybe that's a bad metaphor.)
Anyway, that's what I personally feel about this dance. I'm borrowing it, and I have to keep it in reasonably good condition while I'm using it. So for ME, if the culture reveres a singer and says "don't dance to her" I wouldn't dance to her. I would never CONSIDER dancing to the call to Prayer because I know Muslims would be mortified my that. If the culture says "Take this singer seriously," I will. Even if I don't really "get" what's so great about it. Because I feel that I'm borrowing the dance.
As an artist, I don't feel like I need to OWN the dance. I can borrow it. And while I'm borrowing it, I can be very creative with it. I can be creative inside any given limitation. I think that's actually when we're the MOST creative -- when we HAVE limitations and boundaries and have to work within them. I've seen the most amazing tonal qualities in black and white charcoal drawings. When you only have grey to work with, you get VERY creative at making "colors."
Well, I see what you're saying, but I think maybe this is a western point of view. Nothing to us is really "sacred." We have no sacred music that hasn't already been recorded by punk rock musicians. We've seen attacked everything that might be consider sacred -- from Christ to the Family to the idea of "Freedom." To us hardnosed westerners, there is no sacred anything anymore. Maybe this colors our attitude about stuff like music?
See above. I don't think boundaries limit creativity at all. And not everything has to be new and different. I kind of enjoy watching old Sohair Zaki footage. Over and over again. I like listening to orchestras play The Planets. I've been listening to that same music since I was a kid. I don't get tired of it.
I would say respect is understanding WHY other cultures think the way they do, and acting accordingly. That doesn't mean censoring oneself -- it just means making sensible and intelligent decisions. AND taking responsibility for those decisions and not hiding behind the "It's my art; you can't criticize it!" argument.
Well, I don't REALLY see that anybody is putting boundaries around her music -- just mentioning that if you choose to dance to some piece of music that has special SIGNIFICANCE to a group of people, there are going to be expectations and possible repercusssions from doing so. And we're asking people to make intelligent decisions -- is telling someone not to dance to a sad song at a wedding really putting BOUNDARIES on the dance? OR is it just asking people to use common sense?
I agree. I didn't see anything terribly offensive about this clip, but I also saw it as a commentary on dance and maybe fusion and youth.
I disagree. The best stuff I drew in school was when we had time limits, or color limits, or could only use certain images -- restraining yourself to using only certain elements, or certain movements, or certain music -- I think that makes a person use MORE creativity than they would if they had carte blanche and a blank canvas or stage.
Interesting thoughts, tho. And your English is perfect! Don't worry about that!
Well, I view bellydance as primarily an ethnic dance that we borrow from the Arabs/Turks. Since we're borrowing it, I feel we have to return it undamaged, as if we'd borrwed a book from them. We can dogear a page here and there, and maybe get away with hightlighting a passage, but we can't just rip pages out of the book, or rip the cover off and then return it.
(Maybe that's a bad metaphor.)
Anyway, that's what I personally feel about this dance. I'm borrowing it, and I have to keep it in reasonably good condition while I'm using it. So for ME, if the culture reveres a singer and says "don't dance to her" I wouldn't dance to her. I would never CONSIDER dancing to the call to Prayer because I know Muslims would be mortified my that. If the culture says "Take this singer seriously," I will. Even if I don't really "get" what's so great about it. Because I feel that I'm borrowing the dance.
As an artist, I don't feel like I need to OWN the dance. I can borrow it. And while I'm borrowing it, I can be very creative with it. I can be creative inside any given limitation. I think that's actually when we're the MOST creative -- when we HAVE limitations and boundaries and have to work within them. I've seen the most amazing tonal qualities in black and white charcoal drawings. When you only have grey to work with, you get VERY creative at making "colors."
Well, I see what you're saying, but I think maybe this is a western point of view. Nothing to us is really "sacred." We have no sacred music that hasn't already been recorded by punk rock musicians. We've seen attacked everything that might be consider sacred -- from Christ to the Family to the idea of "Freedom." To us hardnosed westerners, there is no sacred anything anymore. Maybe this colors our attitude about stuff like music?
See above. I don't think boundaries limit creativity at all. And not everything has to be new and different. I kind of enjoy watching old Sohair Zaki footage. Over and over again. I like listening to orchestras play The Planets. I've been listening to that same music since I was a kid. I don't get tired of it.
I would say respect is understanding WHY other cultures think the way they do, and acting accordingly. That doesn't mean censoring oneself -- it just means making sensible and intelligent decisions. AND taking responsibility for those decisions and not hiding behind the "It's my art; you can't criticize it!" argument.
Well, I don't REALLY see that anybody is putting boundaries around her music -- just mentioning that if you choose to dance to some piece of music that has special SIGNIFICANCE to a group of people, there are going to be expectations and possible repercusssions from doing so. And we're asking people to make intelligent decisions -- is telling someone not to dance to a sad song at a wedding really putting BOUNDARIES on the dance? OR is it just asking people to use common sense?
I agree. I didn't see anything terribly offensive about this clip, but I also saw it as a commentary on dance and maybe fusion and youth.
I disagree. The best stuff I drew in school was when we had time limits, or color limits, or could only use certain images -- restraining yourself to using only certain elements, or certain movements, or certain music -- I think that makes a person use MORE creativity than they would if they had carte blanche and a blank canvas or stage.
I agree, but I also don't think it's necessary to ALWAYS break the rules or be innovative or edgy or puch the envelope. Not every piece of art is Art. Not every dance is edgy ART. Sometimes it's just dance and just fun. personally, I am more weirded out by thinking I have to create ART everytime I step on stage than I am about having "boundaries" on what I can do.We should know the basic rules first, but then, we should go over it. It is art! So smile, relax and have fun
Interesting thoughts, tho. And your English is perfect! Don't worry about that!
I think the big difference between your point of you and mine, is that I don't borrow bellydance. Yes it is an ethnic dance and we didn't create it. But I'm not arab, and I can't think like an arab and I don't want to. But bellydance is a dance that suits me perfectly. It's a dance that I dance and I didn't borrow it. I learn it and I understand it too. But I will never dance like an arab unless I copy them, so I have to adapt my dance to myself and my personnality. And that's what make a good and unique dancer.
I also think that we should think about our audience when we are performing. As I say, I don't think it could be a good idea to dance this comedy in Egypt. But don't forget they performed in New York. It's not the same thing and I bet that the audience liked this performance a lot.
Of course, we don't have to always cross the rules to make art. And it's certainly not because you don't follow the rules that it is art. But when you know the rules, when you understand it, you can cross it in an intelligent way and make something new, fresh and very good. If not, well I'm tired to see shows with all the dancers dancing the same way, without meaning anything in their choreography, following each rules. It's incredibly boring. Even if they have a good technic and all... And that is what I see each time I go to a bellydance show. And the best dancers who wake up the audience are the one who are creative, unique and cross the limits. Look at Dina, she certainly play with rules (and I know it doesn't please everybody) and that's what make her so amazing. Maybe she won't dance hip hop on an Oum Kalthoum song, but she will show her bum to the audience just because she can't make hip cercles in the front like old dancers because of the laws. She didn't break any rule, but she plays with the limits and the boundaries.
Anyway, I think we also should respect the work of dancers who don't want to be prisonner of rules and try something different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And this time, it certainly worked ^^
I also think that we should think about our audience when we are performing. As I say, I don't think it could be a good idea to dance this comedy in Egypt. But don't forget they performed in New York. It's not the same thing and I bet that the audience liked this performance a lot.
Of course, we don't have to always cross the rules to make art. And it's certainly not because you don't follow the rules that it is art. But when you know the rules, when you understand it, you can cross it in an intelligent way and make something new, fresh and very good. If not, well I'm tired to see shows with all the dancers dancing the same way, without meaning anything in their choreography, following each rules. It's incredibly boring. Even if they have a good technic and all... And that is what I see each time I go to a bellydance show. And the best dancers who wake up the audience are the one who are creative, unique and cross the limits. Look at Dina, she certainly play with rules (and I know it doesn't please everybody) and that's what make her so amazing. Maybe she won't dance hip hop on an Oum Kalthoum song, but she will show her bum to the audience just because she can't make hip cercles in the front like old dancers because of the laws. She didn't break any rule, but she plays with the limits and the boundaries.
Anyway, I think we also should respect the work of dancers who don't want to be prisonner of rules and try something different. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And this time, it certainly worked ^^
lizaj
New member
summerdance
New member
It's funny to see disrespect labeled as creativity. To second Aziyade's view point. This is very much a borrowed dance. Even the best western dancers rarely EVER give me the belly dance Rouh' Or spirit. You can get as technically correct as you like, but I will always find something lacking. There has only been one western dancer that I watched who made me forget she is American.
That being said, butchering an Um Kulthum song in the name of entertainment, when it wasn't entertaining, is highly offensive. Um Kulthum is an institution, she is not deified. She holds a place in our hearts that some of you will never comprehend. All we ask is that you show respect when you borrow her music and dance to her compositions. If that is too rigid a request, I recommend you find some other music to belly dance to. Doing other wise is arrogant, in my opinion. And it brings to mind all the complaints about the arrogance of westerners in our Arab countries. There's always that one person who visits an Arab countries and wants things his/her way without showing any respect. If you hadn't noticed, respect is paramount. We try our best to give it and all we ask is for just a little reciprocity.
For all of you who have shown genuine understanding : Moon, Aiyzade, Anisteph, Janaki and others thank you for the respect you have shown. It is greatly appreciated.
That being said, butchering an Um Kulthum song in the name of entertainment, when it wasn't entertaining, is highly offensive. Um Kulthum is an institution, she is not deified. She holds a place in our hearts that some of you will never comprehend. All we ask is that you show respect when you borrow her music and dance to her compositions. If that is too rigid a request, I recommend you find some other music to belly dance to. Doing other wise is arrogant, in my opinion. And it brings to mind all the complaints about the arrogance of westerners in our Arab countries. There's always that one person who visits an Arab countries and wants things his/her way without showing any respect. If you hadn't noticed, respect is paramount. We try our best to give it and all we ask is for just a little reciprocity.
For all of you who have shown genuine understanding : Moon, Aiyzade, Anisteph, Janaki and others thank you for the respect you have shown. It is greatly appreciated.
lizaj
New member
Exactly, Summerdance.
We in the West are borrowing ME music and ME dance and we should hand it back in one unbutchered piece.
If you love the dance and music of another culture you should respect and nuture it .
Far too much is done in the name of creativity and art and a lot of the time it is neither very creative nor art in the eyes of the majority.
We in the West are borrowing ME music and ME dance and we should hand it back in one unbutchered piece.
If you love the dance and music of another culture you should respect and nuture it .
Far too much is done in the name of creativity and art and a lot of the time it is neither very creative nor art in the eyes of the majority.
I uploaded this video for my teacher Ranya and no I did'nt upload it to attract Arabs and bellydancers who might be offended by it :lol::lol: That's just about the funniest thing I ever heard.
I don't regularly post on this board so call me a troll or what not but I do post on the other board often.
I respect everyone's opinions and I'm not going to get involved in whether this performance is disrespectful to Om Kolthum's music-- what bothers me is the lack of research involved before jumping to conclusions about this artist. I have another video of Ranya dancing also posted on youtube under my account. Visit her website Bellydance New York City - Ranya and companyand see her credits. She has a very long list of them. Go on, I'll wait, it might take awhile....
I mean the fact that you would say she has no respect for Arabic music is downright laughable.
She even talks about her company, Maqamikaze on her website,
What do you get when you cross Egyptian bellydance with American vaudeville? Maqamikaze Dance Theater brings its blend of sublime Arabic melodies and addictive rhythms, exhilarating traditional dance, and theatrical antics to the festival stage. The company's name captures its essence: "maqam" refers to an Arabic musical mode, while "kamikaze"is a twist on the classics of Middle Eastern repertoire. Ranya, one of New York's leading Arabic dance performers (Lincoln Center Out-Of-Doors, United Nations, Museum of Natural History, Brooklyn Museum, international performances in Tunisia, France, Italy, Latin America), directs the company, drawing on her eclectic background as a Yale theater graduate and longtime involvement in Arab music and dance culture to achieve a vibrant evening of enchantment. She will be joined onstage by an ensemble of top Arab musicians and beautiful dancers.
Love it, hate it. But know a little about what you are talking about by doing research. :think: I'm just presenting the information, make of it what you will.
If you want to see this piece performed live-- it will be featured on the mainstage at the Bellydance Conference in Toronto this April.
Cheers!
Amy
www.amyraks.com
Maria_Aya
New member
Hi Amy
Thanks for the input.
Ok now I understand why you didnt allowed ratings or comments on the video, since its not your video posted.
Now about the respect thing on the arabic music.
I followed your advice and searched alot on the word "Kamikaze" that follow's the word "Maqam". There is no connection between them, except the one the artist want to give connecting them.
In my mind its something like "Suiciding Maqam".
Yes art is a place to do experiments also and I watched it like that.
But this doesnt justify it in the eyes of the people that are crying listening to Alf Leyla Wa Leyla.
And some things doesnt need research on WHO are doing them, and his/her background. For some of us that Oum Kolthoum IS sacred, this choreo was a stubing on heart.
Just my opinion.
Maria Aya, Athens Greece
p.s. I actually like Ranya as a performer
If for some of you, Oum Kalhtoum is sacred, why dance to her song in a way you like, only because you want it that way? Why should I put limit in my dance, just because some people don't want me to dance a certain way to a certain song?
If Oum Kalhoum is sacred to you, fine, but don't ask to everyone to think your way or to act in a way it won't offend you. It's your problem if you don't like it, and it's your right. But it's also the problem of the dancer to experiment something new on Oum Kalthoum and it's her right too. Why should she respects you by acting the way you want her to act, and why don't you respect her by letting her act the way she want to? Where is the respect when we prohibitsomething just because it's sacred for us?
This is why I don't like all the sacred thing. It's so egoist and only a one way road. We can't offend you because you decide that this thing, is your sacred thing. It's the way I understand it and it is why I will never dance to please everybody.
If Oum Kalhoum is sacred to you, fine, but don't ask to everyone to think your way or to act in a way it won't offend you. It's your problem if you don't like it, and it's your right. But it's also the problem of the dancer to experiment something new on Oum Kalthoum and it's her right too. Why should she respects you by acting the way you want her to act, and why don't you respect her by letting her act the way she want to? Where is the respect when we prohibitsomething just because it's sacred for us?
This is why I don't like all the sacred thing. It's so egoist and only a one way road. We can't offend you because you decide that this thing, is your sacred thing. It's the way I understand it and it is why I will never dance to please everybody.
Maria_Aya
New member
I'm very happy reading your post dear Fishania, as you are not using ANYWHERE in this post the word "bellydancer" or "orientaldancer".
From a general point of a "dancer" yes you are 100% right.
But from the point of a "bellydancer" or "orientaldancer" that have the knowledge that the dance we are practising is connected with the culture of the specific countries, it would be arrogant to provocat in this way Oum Kolthoum, if she/he wants to continue to be considered a "bellydancer" or "orientaldancer".
Maria Aya
So the bellydancers of the comedy are no longer bellydancers because you feel provocate? Even if they do bellydance in the choreography?
Hum... I don't think so.
And lizaj, I'm saying that a dancer (and a bellydancer) has the right to use the music he-she wants and dancing the style he-she wants. Even if it's Oum Kalthoum. It's called freedom of expression and no matter the culture, everybody has that right
Hum... I don't think so.
And lizaj, I'm saying that a dancer (and a bellydancer) has the right to use the music he-she wants and dancing the style he-she wants. Even if it's Oum Kalthoum. It's called freedom of expression and no matter the culture, everybody has that right
Moon
New member
Firshania, bellydancers aren't always bellydancing. If I go out, dance to Western music and just move my hips a bit I'm not bellydancing. And this choreo also wasn't really bellydance imo.
Sure bellydancers can dance whatever style they want to, but if they're not bellydancing, they're still bellydancers, they just aren't bellydancing at that moment. And I have no idea what style was shown in that video.
Sure bellydancers can dance whatever style they want to, but if they're not bellydancing, they're still bellydancers, they just aren't bellydancing at that moment. And I have no idea what style was shown in that video.
I know that bellydancers aren't always bellydancing. But somebody who perform on stage a bellydance in a style that don't please some person who are offended or feel provocate, it's not a bellydancer?
A bellydancer is somebody who perform bellydance. If a professionnal bellydancer dance in a party something else, than it's a bellydancer performing something else in a party.
And they do bellydance in the video. It's pretty clear at the end of the choreo IMO.
A bellydancer is somebody who perform bellydance. If a professionnal bellydancer dance in a party something else, than it's a bellydancer performing something else in a party.
And they do bellydance in the video. It's pretty clear at the end of the choreo IMO.
summerdance
New member
Actually, A belly dancer is NOT someone who learned a few moves and has danced a few years. It takes many many many years in order to become a belly dancer. It's more than learning to shake your hips and swaying to be a belly dancer. There's a feeling and understanding that is absolutely necessary before you can begin to call yourself a belly dancer.
It takes learning to understand the reasons , themes in compositions, understand the culture, the people the physical, anatomical body requirements in belly dance.
The whole point of this is that when you borrow my car, I have every right to tell you what kind of gas goes in it. We have every right to say how Um Kulthum is to be treated. She belongs to us.
Believe it or not, it also takes learning to respect a culture and history without which you couldn't get up on stage and be that belly dancer you believe yourself to be. Yes, as a person, you are free to dance to the Good Morning America theme song, or jingle bells, if you choose. That does not a belly dancer make.
You will never understand what I or any of the other people have tried to explain to you. Telling you something is offensive is not our way of controlling your dancing or curtailing your creativity. We are all for the advancement of the dance, but the minute we sell everything in exchange for creativity, that is when Belly dance loses it's core attraction. Dancers from all over have united over a beautiful, empowering, art that has connected Arabs with Americans and Americans with Indians and Greeks and Turks. It's a beautiful connection. One based on understanding and respecting each other. Sticking to your ignorant, uneducated opinion simply for the sake of argument is obstinent.
As Maria has said, it's not an issue of understanding the dancers system. Maqam and Kamikaze go together about as well as muddy shoes in an all white floor art exhibit.
It takes learning to understand the reasons , themes in compositions, understand the culture, the people the physical, anatomical body requirements in belly dance.
The whole point of this is that when you borrow my car, I have every right to tell you what kind of gas goes in it. We have every right to say how Um Kulthum is to be treated. She belongs to us.
Believe it or not, it also takes learning to respect a culture and history without which you couldn't get up on stage and be that belly dancer you believe yourself to be. Yes, as a person, you are free to dance to the Good Morning America theme song, or jingle bells, if you choose. That does not a belly dancer make.
You will never understand what I or any of the other people have tried to explain to you. Telling you something is offensive is not our way of controlling your dancing or curtailing your creativity. We are all for the advancement of the dance, but the minute we sell everything in exchange for creativity, that is when Belly dance loses it's core attraction. Dancers from all over have united over a beautiful, empowering, art that has connected Arabs with Americans and Americans with Indians and Greeks and Turks. It's a beautiful connection. One based on understanding and respecting each other. Sticking to your ignorant, uneducated opinion simply for the sake of argument is obstinent.
As Maria has said, it's not an issue of understanding the dancers system. Maqam and Kamikaze go together about as well as muddy shoes in an all white floor art exhibit.
lizaj
New member
lizaj
New member
So the bellydancers of the comedy are no longer bellydancers because you feel provocate? Even if they do bellydance in the choreography?
Hum... I don't think so.
And lizaj, I'm saying that a dancer (and a bellydancer) has the right to use the music he-she wants and dancing the style he-she wants. Even if it's Oum Kalthoum. It's called freedom of expression and no matter the culture, everybody has that right
Well there we have to disagree.
Before you express yourself, I believe you have to consider the feelings of others around you. You cannot ride roughshod over culture and sensibilities expecially when you are dabbling in someone elses.