"Stealing Students".... HUNH???

Aisha Azar

New member
Students

Dear Azeeza,
Some years ago I wrote an article about the student/instructor relationship in Middle Eastern dance. This is one of my pet peeves as well. We do not own our students. We should instead be honored that they choose to study with us, considering all of the competition that is out there. In Spokane alone a person can choose from about 8-10 regular teachers and countless sponsored events. I make it clear to my students and my dance colleagues in the dance company that they should study with whomever they please. While I would hope and pray that they make good choices, and I will advise if they ask, it is not up to me in the end. It is up to them and they should be able to study with whomever they want with no animosity from any other instructor.
Regards,
A'isha
 

lizaj

New member
If we talk about teachers "stealing" pupils we infer that our students have no minds of their own.
A good teacher will hope that her students experience different teachers and their different approaches.
I lost a regular student who decided to go to a class that was set up more local to her so how can I blame her? I was very sorry to lose her. I am also sorry because although I like the teacher I do not feel she is very good dancer. Then again who am I to judge? She is a nice person with a good attitude to the dance and as far as I can tell is concerned with all the safety aspects.
Any student with any sense will try different classes and stay with the one that suits them best not just by dance style but with locality and the "mood" of the class. Not all students are about becoming Randa Kamal just having fun or keeping fit..in fact a minority get as obsessed as we do.
We do have a teacher local to us who is controlling of her students, telling them it is wrong to go to other teachers and has been threatening to other teachers. I don't think she sees herself as in the wrong! She is an excellent publicist so gets plenty of students so I do not see why she should do this but hey ho..it's the personailty, the insecurity I suppose.
I couldn't take my last class (off sick) and a very competant student who has been doing a bit of team teaching with me took it. Of course I was miffed to miss the class but eventually I hope this girl will do the training I am and take over as I toddle off to my dotage . Teacher!You are not God or even a goddess:D
 

TribalDancer

New member
If I may, I would like to offer an alternative view.

I have not seen whatever post A'isha is referring to (did it get posted here and I missed it?), so can't say if this is addressing that or not. But in general the idea of "stealing students"...

I think it is one thing if a student leaves to take from another teacher, or takes from multiple teachers. I think it is quite another to actively promote to other people's students.

For instance, I have heard of instances where there is a teacher who teaches at one facility, and another teacher comes and posts their flyers at their studio bulletin board, intentionally to try and lure students from that studio. Or who come to other teacher's haflas and salons and hand out flyers or cards unasked. This, to me, is a business ethics issue.

This is not to imply that you own your students. This is simply a matter of respect for fellow businesspeople. I would not go to someone else's restaurant and hadn out flyers for my restaurant. I would not go to an acting school and hand out flyers for private acting classes I teach. If someone asks me, sure I will tell them and give them a card. If they ask. But I don't go into other people's "domain" actively trying to bank on getting their students to come to my classes. That's tasteless.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Stealing students

If I may, I would like to offer an alternative view.

I have not seen whatever post A'isha is referring to (did it get posted here and I missed it?), so can't say if this is addressing that or not. But in general the idea of "stealing students"...

I think it is one thing if a student leaves to take from another teacher, or takes from multiple teachers. I think it is quite another to actively promote to other people's students.

For instance, I have heard of instances where there is a teacher who teaches at one facility, and another teacher comes and posts their flyers at their studio bulletin board, intentionally to try and lure students from that studio. Or who come to other teacher's haflas and salons and hand out flyers or cards unasked. This, to me, is a business ethics issue.

This is not to imply that you own your students. This is simply a matter of respect for fellow businesspeople. I would not go to someone else's restaurant and hadn out flyers for my restaurant. I would not go to an acting school and hand out flyers for private acting classes I teach. If someone asks me, sure I will tell them and give them a card. If they ask. But I don't go into other people's "domain" actively trying to bank on getting their students to come to my classes. That's tasteless.


Dear Tribal Dancer,
I also think it is tasteless to go into another dancer's studio and try to actively lure her students away. But, in the end, if the student chooses to be lured away, it may be saying something about the kind of instruction that she/he is currently getting being unsatisfactory. It is difficult to pull a student away from a teacher who is giving them what they need. Also, students are not a commodity that we can "steal" from each other. they are individuals who have minds and ethics of their own.
Regards,
A'isha
 

belly_dancer

New member
If I may, I would like to offer an alternative view.

I have not seen whatever post A'isha is referring to (did it get posted here and I missed it?), so can't say if this is addressing that or not. But in general the idea of "stealing students"...

I think it is one thing if a student leaves to take from another teacher, or takes from multiple teachers. I think it is quite another to actively promote to other people's students.

For instance, I have heard of instances where there is a teacher who teaches at one facility, and another teacher comes and posts their flyers at their studio bulletin board, intentionally to try and lure students from that studio. Or who come to other teacher's haflas and salons and hand out flyers or cards unasked. This, to me, is a business ethics issue.

This is not to imply that you own your students. This is simply a matter of respect for fellow businesspeople. I would not go to someone else's restaurant and hadn out flyers for my restaurant. I would not go to an acting school and hand out flyers for private acting classes I teach. If someone asks me, sure I will tell them and give them a card. If they ask. But I don't go into other people's "domain" actively trying to bank on getting their students to come to my classes. That's tasteless.

at first I was not agreeing with you... but would I place my flyers for my dinner show at X restaurant that WAS OPEN FOR DINNER RIGHT DOWN THE STREET???? NO!!
at the coffee house that closes@ 3pm...hell yeah!!
 

Kashmir

New member
Dear Gang,
I get posts from another forum on which, for some reason I can not post. On that forum right now is the subject of "stealing students". I get VERY frustrated with the idea that some teachers have, that they own their students and that the student is free only to study with them or with people they sponsor.
A student, or for that member a company member or other colleague is free to
study with whomever they choose. In fact, in my company, dancers can even belong to other dance companies. I have company members and students who also study with other dancers. I encourage it.
Where does this idea come from that teachers can tell students who to study with? I don't get it, but it REALLY makes me mad.
Regards,
A'isha
I agreed as far as teachers preventing their students from studying with other teachers by keeping them in the dark or emotional blackmail or removing performance opportunities. But here are a couple of different scenarios - both happened locally.

1: Teacher is part of a "school" with several other teachers - as a paid employee ie does no publicity, doesn't provide the studio, takes no financial risk - receives payment for each class taught and has no input into curriculum development. Leaves in a pip and tells her students they will have to change studios - ie takes about a third of the students with her. Most go because they think they are "her" students not the school's students. (After some months a number ask if they can rejoin the school as the teacher bit off more than she could chew - but many were put off and never returned. Teacher has long since given up teaching.)

2: Another teacher wants to be "useful" and teaches classes a $2 a throw. Offers classes to students who pay more like the going rate. You get what you pay for - but many don't realize they are; many would only do a term anyway - and we all know it's the broad beginner base that supports the rest of the classes - so other teachers have less students to cover.

3: Into an already tight scene - 3 or 4 competing teachers in a small CBD -another teacher enters on the same block. Again, limited students available and they are now stretched over 5 different teachers. Prediction - some are going to go belly up. :rolleyes:
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Stealing students

Dear Kashmir,

I agreed as far as teachers preventing their students from studying with other teachers by keeping them in the dark or emotional blackmail or removing performance opportunities. But here are a couple of different scenarios - both happened locally.

1: Teacher is part of a "school" with several other teachers - as a paid employee ie does no publicity, doesn't provide the studio, takes no financial risk - receives payment for each class taught and has no input into curriculum development. Leaves in a pip and tells her students they will have to change studios - ie takes about a third of the students with her. Most go because they think they are "her" students not the school's students. (After some months a number ask if they can rejoin the school as the teacher bit off more than she could chew - but many were put off and never returned. Teacher has long since given up teaching.)

A'isha writes- People do think of their instructor as an individual, not as an institution. Yes, and this happens all over the world, all the time. I had a woman leave my classe after about a year, and one of my students followed her because she told her she was going to make her a member of her dance company. (The fact that the neither of them was ready to be in a dance company was beside the point, I guess. ) The student is back with me now, had three more years of dance under her belt and is now in MY dance company, but she had to learn a lesson first. that is just one of the hazards of being a dance instructor. In the last 32 years, there is not much that has not happened to me re the whole "stealing students" issue. The bottom line is they stay if they want to or go if they want to, so we all need to provide the very best learning experience that we can.

2: Another teacher wants to be "useful" and teaches classes a $2 a throw. Offers classes to students who pay more like the going rate. You get what you pay for - but many don't realize they are; many would only do a term anyway - and we all know it's the broad beginner base that supports the rest of the classes - so other teachers have less students to cover.

A'isha writes- Could I also accuse those who are teaching through Parks and Recreation or Extended Learning, of under cutting? They teach for $17.50 an hour around here. I have turned them down, and also a studio that wanted to pay me $10 an hour to teach, while they kept the bulk of the students' payment.

3: Into an already tight scene - 3 or 4 competing teachers in a small CBD -another teacher enters on the same block. Again, limited students available and they are now stretched over 5 different teachers. Prediction - some are going to go belly up. :rolleyes:

A'isha writes- Market glut is a huge problem in our region. Seattle is even worse. I have made the attempt to have a dance community meeting and solve the problem. I got called a bunch of names and accused to trying to do something underhanded by the woman I mention after scenario #1 above.

So, what can we do? Not much of anything concerning either issue, except to keep providing the best quality product that we can. Right now, many of the dancers in town do not attend my company's events because they are not asked to dance in the show. In order to put on the kinds of shows we do, we have to put in hours of rehearsal and close work, and most people outside the company only want to solo. We do not just let people be in the show because we want high attendance. In spite of this, we are getting a pretty good turn-out for our events most of the time ( there are occasional down swings) AND we pay each dancer who performs. As far as teaching, I would stand behind the quality of my service any day.

In the end, we still can not steal anyone's students. They will choose for themselves where they go.

Regards,
A'isha
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
I agreed as far as teachers preventing their students from studying with other teachers by keeping them in the dark or emotional blackmail or removing performance opportunities. But here are a couple of different scenarios - both happened locally.

The free market system does have its problems.

I think SOME students are incredibly devoted to one teacher or another. I have had students who became good friends with me outside of class. Some still dance, some don't. I adored one of my watercolor teachers and really liked hanging with her at arts events here, even though I don't paint in her studio group any more. I had one student (she's a VERY close friend now) that I had to practically pry off of me, when I stopped teaching regular sessions. She didn't want to learn with anybody else. (She's since taken my advice and now takes a class with my mentor, and we get together once a week to practice and dance for fun.) My mentor has had similar experiences. It's funny -- there becomes this sort of "cult" around you, and you have to work quickly to break it up before it becomes uncomfortable or starts creating problems.

But I've also had students who took my class because it was at the right time for them, or was on the east side of town. Not all students get SO obsessed with what they're learning as we do. Some just want a break from the 8-5 for a while. I was like that with salsa. There was an east side class and a west side class, and I would RATHER have had the west side teacher (cause he was cuter) but I really didn't want to drive 45 minutes there and 45 minutes back just to take an hour class. Parents often enroll their little squibs in whatever ballet school is closest to the home, especially if they don't have SERIOUS dreams of their child dancing professionally.

Undercutting hasn't been a huge big deal here, but I see it in Louisville. The other major belly dance teacher here advertises her rates on her website, and we match that. I see no point in undercutting because my time is valuable, and frankly I think undercutting devalues your "product" in the eyes of the student. We have actually discussed this with studios, the YMCA, and our community ed group (we don't have parks and rec here, but there are community ed agencies) and they understand the need to keep pricing consistent.

On the fruitloop teachers:

There are an AMAZING number of neurotic people involved in teaching belly dance. I would not hesitate to say there are more psychologically "broken" people in belly dance than in the visual arts and the mainstream dance world put together. We almost have to anticipate problems before they occur. I think I may actually put something on our website about the teacher-student contract (I know a lot of teachers in Louisville do this) so the student doesn't feel "owned" or possibly threatened by the idea of taking from more than one teacher.

Interesting thoughts here. good thread.
 

Brea

New member
I have seen the scary things that come from those 'neurotic' teachers. In a way I think it's dangerous and detrimental to the entire perception of the dance.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Scary Teachers

I have seen the scary things that come from those 'neurotic' teachers. In a way I think it's dangerous and detrimental to the entire perception of the dance.


Dear Brea,
I once had a teacher from out of state call me up and tell me not to do anything to promote a different teacher from her state because the other teacher was "bad for belly dance"... er, whatever that meant. She never did give me any clear reasoning on her conclusion.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Brea

New member
A'isha-

Oh my that is drastic! I would not want to do that to anyone. Still, there have been occasions I have seen that are beyond the pale.
 

TribalDancer

New member
I guess what I am saying is that, while the terminology "stealing" may be a semantic discussion, I think we may be able to all agree that actively trying to promote to other people's students *specifically* can be considered rude and ethically questionable. In the same way as a restaurant going and putting flyers in another restaurant would be, as in my example.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Stealing,etc.

Dear Sharon,
On that we are in agreement. It is unethical to purposely solicit other peoples' students, especially on their home turf.
Now, how do people feel about sending flyers to other people's students about your events, or putting up an event flyer in places where other people teach belly dance. Do the same ethics apply, especiallly if you KNOW the other teacher will never inform her students about other peoples' events?
Regards,
A'isha
 

TribalDancer

New member
I consider THAT a community service. Flyers about events open to everyone, and meant as entertainment (or edutatainment) should be available to everyone anytime, IMO.

It pisses me off to hear about teachers who won't keep their students in the loop! To an extent it is the student's responsibility to find information for themselves, but to HIDE information, or discourage the seekign of it...chaps my hide!!
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Stealing, etc.

I consider THAT a community service. Flyers about events open to everyone, and meant as entertainment (or edutatainment) should be available to everyone anytime, IMO.

It pisses me off to hear about teachers who won't keep their students in the loop! To an extent it is the student's responsibility to find information for themselves, but to HIDE information, or discourage the seekign of it...chaps my hide!!


Dear Sharon,
That would be my take on it,too. Even if I really detest the sponsor or the presenter, it is not up to me to make decisions about who my students choose to study with. I give out info and if they ask my opinion, I will tell them. If I think the dancer is superb and not to be missed, I will tell them outright. However, I think teachers that do this are pretty rare. I think it seems to be more common, at least in my neck of the woods that teachers do not inform their students of other peoples' events. As soon as anyone sends me flyers, I let my students know what is going on. If they send me enough to pass around, I do so.
Regards,
A'isha
 
This is something I find interesting because I am a strings teacher (violin, viola, cello and double bass). With instrumental teaching - particularly strings - it is considered a distinct disadvantage to have multiple teachers. Different teachers use different methods, styles, books, technique and have varying speeds.

This can make it incredibly confusing and often puts people right off when they have two teachers, unless of course the teachers have some kind of arrangement as to who teaches what.

In dancing, it seems that learning with multiple teachers actually broadens your horizons and develops your technique further!

That really fascinates me!

xxx
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dance

This is something I find interesting because I am a strings teacher (violin, viola, cello and double bass). With instrumental teaching - particularly strings - it is considered a distinct disadvantage to have multiple teachers. Different teachers use different methods, styles, books, technique and have varying speeds.

This can make it incredibly confusing and often puts people right off when they have two teachers, unless of course the teachers have some kind of arrangement as to who teaches what.

In dancing, it seems that learning with multiple teachers actually broadens your horizons and develops your technique further!

That really fascinates me!

xxx


Dear Starlet,
I consider it to be a disadvantage when you are learning fundamentals, but after a person has 8 months or so under their belt, why not study with different teachers? Because beginning teachers teach things in such different ways, it is important to explain to students that you have your effective method and so do other instructors, and that it might be best to learn the basics in one way, in preparation for further study with different teachers. I can see how learning basics from more than one teacher might be confusing.
Regards,
A'isha
 

adiemus

New member
As a pianist and past player of clarinet, I think that initially it's good to have a
single teacher - but it's very rare for someone more experienced (say, learning for 5 or 6 years, unless they're children) to remain solely with the same teacher. Learning an instrument with another teacher after the 'basics' are down develops range and extends the repertoire. Of course in classical music, there are some ways to check whether the teacher you use will teach 'good' technique - most teachers are licensed or at least have some qualification to show their skill level with a recognised school (eg Trinity College or Royal Academy). As far as I know the same things apply to ballet (well they did when I danced ballet!)
In bellydance of most types there are few if any 'recognised' schools, and so the quality of what you learn could be quite variable. And once learned, it's so very difficult to change poor technique. Probably the basic for me is to be able to develop 'good' posture - some of the YouTube videos show really poor posture, and without good guidance, I'm sure it's nigh on impossible to know whether you're dancing with good posture!

As for teachers not promoting dance performances or resources from other schools - well that's just being precious! Unless of course you're intending to promote a competing workshop or performance... Thankfully the teacher I have does promote other performances and workshops, but prefaces 'recommendations' with a discussion of what you might gain and what you might want to watch out for as being less helpful...
 
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