Relying on Mirrors

Brea

New member
Thanks, A'isha, I will look at it. I might even change my mind about the mirrors...but I do find exactly what the above students were complaining about. Once the mirror is gone, so is the crutch, and that could be devastating for some people. It also could be that I have just run across these types of students before as well. Who knows?
 

Reen.Blom

New member
{shrugs} I guess you can teach cooking also without letting the students taste the food.

I just don't see why anyone would want to deny students one of their main senses for self-feedback and learning.

Wanting to not have mirrors in the room is very different from having mirrors and also using non-visual learning techniques.

Sedonia

Well said Sedonia!:clap:
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Mirrors

Thanks, A'isha, I will look at it. I might even change my mind about the mirrors...but I do find exactly what the above students were complaining about. Once the mirror is gone, so is the crutch, and that could be devastating for some people. It also could be that I have just run across these types of students before as well. Who knows?


Dear BRea,
I would not exactly refer to mirror as a "crutch"; more like an educational tool for dancers,actors, mimes, comedians, singers, professional speakers and others, that when used properly, enhances the learning experience for most students and the teaching experience for most teachers.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Reen.Blom

New member
Dear BRea,
I would not exactly refer to mirror as a "crutch"; more like an educational tool for dancers,actors, mimes, comedians, singers, professional speakers and others, that when used properly, enhances the learning experience for most students and the teaching experience for most teachers.
Regards,
A'isha

Sorry Aisha, cant give you more reps, have to try later!;)
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Shanazel's opening salvo in any beginning class includes some variation of the following, "The mirror is a tool. It is not there to make you self conscious. It is not there to critisize your waistline. It is not there to tell you your eye makeup is smudged. It is not there to allow you to bask in your own reflection. It is there to help you learn."

I would very much hate having to teach a class, especially a beginning class, without a mirror. I also have my students practice while turned away from the mirror, and I have them work at times with their eyes closed, but to learn without ever seeing what you are doing- why on earth would you chose to do that if you didn't have to?
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
I think it's that people do learn differently. I have heard that you should teach in at least four different ways (any kind of teaching) because some people learn visually, some physically, etc.

I guess I'm missing something here. You said earlier that as a teacher, you would prefer to not have mirrors in the classroom. Yet, wouldn't your statement above (which I agree with) argue *for* having mirrors, rather than *not* having them??

It seems to me that if you, as a teacher, were to not have mirrors in your class (because you consider yourself a non-visual learner), you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your ability to teach different ways and to allow your students to learn different ways.

Sedonia
 

Brea

New member
Hi everybody,

Okay, admittedly, the reason I feel this way is because I have never used mirrors in class (because there weren't any in the places I was able to teach). I have practiced with other dancers and have seen the things I described above, because there were mirrors set up in that area. It is not my personal learning style that was the difficulty. I have also read previously that it was better not to have them and I understand why. I will see if I can find the link. But yes, Sedonia, you are right. Those different learning styles do argue for mirrors. Perhaps it's best to do it both ways?

However! Since I am starting to teach class in a place with mirrors, I will let you know how I feel about them. I think I'm going to use Shanazel's speech, though!

My curiosity is whether any of you, who have always used mirrors, have ever noticed this tendency at all?
 
Last edited:

Shanazel

Moderator
The tendency to depend on mirrors? Sure. I have also noticed tendencies to depend on the teacher, depend on being able to hide from the mirror in the back of the room, depend on having one's best friend or mom in class, depend on having one's lucky coin scarf- there are lots of things people come to depend on. Frankly, the dependence on standing in the back or having the teacher always perform wth the group in public is much harder to overcome than dependence on the mirror. It's just a habit, and habits can be broken.

You are welcome to whatever part of the speech you wish to use. My royalties are very reasonable;)
 

Brea

New member
Will a glass of absinthe cover those royalties, Shanazel? :)

Teaching Technique - Belly Dance Instructors - tribe.net

What Samira says is exactly the problem I have seen. I couldn't find the article I was talking about but what she's saying is what I've also experienced.

And....lucky coin belt?

I once had a student who tried to become the teacher because she had previous experience as a bellydancer, and two of the girls got to listening to her more than me. Oh well. She was great at shimmies. :D
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Will a glass of absinthe cover those royalties, Shanazel?

About an eighth of a glass will do just fine- I am a wimp when it comes to alcohol. Not as bad as Dorothy Parker (who I paraphrase: "Two glasses of wine and I'm under the host"), but don't expect me to keep up with true worshippers of the green fairy.

I read Samira's commentary. She said,
I think it makes them a bit more self-conscious knowing everyone can see that they are doing it wrong.

Part of learning to dance is learning to put one's efforts in to dance-consciousness instead of self-consciousness. It can be a hard lesson to learn, but there you are. I don't get many students who have enough time or curiosity to watch anyone except themselves and me. And I don't have any students who always get everything right, so usually no one gets permanent feelings of superiority.
 
Last edited:

Hyacinth

New member
Hey Hyacinth,

Is the problem
1. that you need the mirror to see what you're doing, no matter what direction you face

or

2. that you learned the choreography while your body was oriented a certain way (facing a certain direction) and when you face a different wall, it messes you up?

Hi Aziyade,

I also have a ballet background and don't have a problem with the arabesques, turns, etc - it's subtle torso movements that I have trouble remembering the feel of - guess I just have crap body awareness!:)
 

Brea

New member
Shanazel-

One of my first teaching experiences was in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia...where no teacher had been before. So I had more difficulty than is probably usual with my students. I think mirrors would have been intensely detrimental to people who were not accustomed to the 'shake' of bellydance, if you ken my meaning!

I am a devotee of la fee verte...as well as whatever mystic thing is in charge of Scottish whisky.
 

Moon

New member
Sedoniaraqs said:
{shrugs} I guess you can teach cooking also without letting the students taste the food.
Wow, no need to react like that...
My teacher who teaches without mirrors is a very good dancer and wonderful teacher. I have never seen people in her class being "lost without a mirror". I was used to dance with a mirror before I started taking lessons with her and it took me half an hour to even notice there were no mirrors. Her style of teaching is very different from most teachers, that might make the difference?
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I think mirrors would have been intensely detrimental to people who were not accustomed to the 'shake' of bellydance, if you ken my meaning!

I ken, but I don't agree. People are people. Some are intimidated by the mirrors to begin with, some are not. The ones that are intimidated get over it unless they have some pretty serious hang ups that need more than a dance class to fix. For the vast majority of students, it is just a matter of learning to use a new tool and facing reality.

In some ways, being afraid to use mirrors is comparable to writing students who are terrified to read their work aloud: you can't really know your own dance until you see it or your own stories until you hear them. Silent reading and sightless dancing leave the performer at a loss, whether they realize it or not, and that opinion is founded on many, many years of teaching, studying, writing, reading and performing.
 
Last edited:

Aisha Azar

New member
Mirrors, etc.

Wow, no need to react like that...
My teacher who teaches without mirrors is a very good dancer and wonderful teacher. I have never seen people in her class being "lost without a mirror". I was used to dance with a mirror before I started taking lessons with her and it took me half an hour to even notice there were no mirrors. Her style of teaching is very different from most teachers, that might make the difference?

Dear Moon,
Especially if they have never used mirrors, students have no way of measuring their importance. I know that I can take a class in a room with 60 people in it, with no mirrors and still get something from that class. I can definitely state that the class would have been far superior for me if I could visually have checked my work against the instructor's input. If nothing else, mirrors should be an option for students. If they don't like them, they can always not look, but I find that most students value them as a learning tool. I have been teaching for 32 years and have not had any complaints about mirrors. And I seem to recall that every dance studio that I have ever been in has mirrors, from university dance classrooms, to ballet company studios, to the shabbiest little hole in the wall dance studio on skid row in Seattle , Washington, where I used to go to study with Feiruz. There is a reason for that.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Brea

New member
Ok everyone. I will give it a chance. However it seems many of you want to attack me for this particular opinion. I find that very strange.
 
Last edited:

Moon

New member
A'isha Azar said:
Dear Moon,
Especially if they have never used mirrors, students have no way of measuring their importance.
That is probably true. However in the group where I have lessons with that teacher, 90% of the students originally started with another teacher or still regularly take classes with another teacher.

A'isha Azar said:
If nothing else, mirrors should be an option for students. If they don't like them, they can always not look, but I find that most students value them as a learning tool.
I agree having the choice would be best, though I think teachers should make sure students don't get mirror-dependent.
However I just wanted to say teaching without a mirror is certainly well possible. Mirrors would not really add something to the teaching style my teacher uses, though they have their value for the style my other teacher uses. Maybe Brea also has a style of teaching in which mirrors are not so important.

A'isha Azar said:
I have been teaching for 32 years and have not had any complaints about mirrors. And I seem to recall that every dance studio that I have ever been in has mirrors, from university dance classrooms, to ballet company studios, to the shabbiest little hole in the wall dance studio on skid row in Seattle , Washington, where I used to go to study with Feiruz. There is a reason for that.
Regards,
A'isha
Could that be because everyone is just so used to a mirror they think it's extremely important? I also thought teaching without a mirror was impossible before I experienced otherwise.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Could that be because everyone is just so used to a mirror they think it's extremely important? I also thought teaching without a mirror was impossible before I experienced otherwise.

Possibly. I certainly don't know any differently.

But I've actually only been to a scant few actual WORKSHOPS where we had access to mirrors, and one was Suhaila's level 1 class, and the other was an Andalusian dance workshop, and I can tell you right now the mirrors did NOT help!

You know, there were instructors on the MEDance list who taught blind students. That puts the whole mirror issue aside.

Personally, I think mirrors help me get my beginners to see what's happening -- BUT I do have to fight with them to realize that their movements are probably not going to be as big as mine. That's always a struggle.

I've also had students who I SWEAR never looked at the mirror. They looked at me, or (until I could break them of it) the floor. They did just as well as the others. I guess everybody learns in a different way ...

I think I would be weirded out if I didn't at least have the OPTION to look at or ignore the mirror. Habit, you know.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Mirrors

Dear Gang,
I have taught with and without mirrors and been a student with and without mirrors. I have found both jobs to be much easier with. When I teach workshops, I do everything I can to try to have the sponsor find us a locale with mirrors. I have had students come up to me after class and comment on how nice it was to have them, I also limit my workshop numbers to a manageable 30. It seems unfair to students to pack them into a place like sardines and then say, "Oh, learn this. with no feedback, no personal connection, no mirrors, no floor space, no acknowledgement of YOU as a single being and not a herd animal of some sort". I HATE THAT!!!!
Regards,
A'isha
 

Reen.Blom

New member
Ok everyone. I will give it a chance. However it seems many of you want to attack me for this particular opinion. I find that very strange.

Brea, do not take things so personally. The fact that people dont agree with you does not mean that everyone "attacking you". It is not a reasonable thing to think. I see where you come from with people getting way too dependand on mirrors or just posing for themselves instead of paing attention to the instructor. You as a teacher have the power to direct your class wher you think fit, so you can reverse the class away from the mirror, and yes use it as a tool. TYhe fact that the mirrors been used for years and years in dance teaching maybe indicates ythat it is helpful? I personally not able to check myself without a mirror and I did really suffer in a clas without one.

You however as a teacher can control the situation and why not worout some new approach faceing the problem of distracted students? I think Maria poined out some wonderful ways and I would really love to be in her clas one day!

*hugs Brea*
 
Top