Goddess of the Dance

I love this idea and hate to see it abandoned. Can you still do the goddess theme, and just maybe find a way to word it so it's not horribly annoying? I love the idea of "Mythic Images" or something -- and you could explore other characters/archetypes that aren't technically goddesses. Valkyries, sprites, fairies, hell - I'll model for GNOMES. :) LOL

Oh and we have MAJOR issues with the Dolphin Lady, but the least of them is her "goddess" thing.

Quite frankly the last thing I need is an infuriated MacDonald lady who frolics in the snow in her kilt, brandishing her Claymore coming after me.
did you notice she said ..."I am not trying to burn you anywhere."... But I am not that brave.... :)
The Left-handed MacDonald, Alasdair the son of Colla, committed a series of atrocities against the civilians of clan Campbell. On one infamous occasion, the MacDonald leader herded a whole Campbell community in Argyll, including women and children, into a barn and burned them alive, in an incident known as the "Barn of Bone"
 
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The new link worked. Thanks!



Michael,

Professional dancers routinely work to dispel the myth that our dance comes from ancient goddess-based rituals or something like that. The simple fact is that the origins of belly dancing are lost in time. While it MAY have been used a certain way by certain people, there is no written record, and so anything is pretty much speculation.

A lot of Americans latched on to the "Mother Goddess" idea and that's created some problems in the community. Thus a lot of people are sensitive about the association. Just FYI.

Most people date modern belly dance to no earlier than about the 1930s or 19403 -- when Raqs Sharqi as a performing art form developed. While there is no doubt that people have been dancing since we climbed out of the trees, there's a great debate about what dance looked like in prehistory, and very little evidence that BELLY DANCE as we know it dates to that time. Again, FYI.
well, "Goddess of the Dance" isn't specific to bellydance. Personally I don't have a problem with it, but no matter WHAT you do, it will make somebody mad. Welcome to America :) LOL.
If you seriously want help, private message me. I did something similar for our pagan community -- creating dances and meditations based on goddess archetypes. FUN. I'd be interested to hear your take on some of the more obscure goddesses.
Plus you HAVE to have an Eris in the collection. I have lots of ideas in that direction :)
Have you actually tried to shop this around? Instead of self-publishing it? A publisher MIGHT be interested in doing this. I just worked with a client who took pictures of novelty bar taps and made a sort of coffee-table book out of it, and his project was bought by a publisher. Not a big publisher, but he's actually MAKING a bit of money instead of spending it.

Your other option might be print on demand services. I know there are several self-publishing, on-demand providers on the internet, and Amazon may offer something similar.

Now, now. It has nothing to do with being gay. You don't want to be snarky about that -- Men dance as well as women. We can hook you up with male dancers if you wanted to add a "God" section. But I get your point about "goddesses" and the male presence.

Seriously -- get in touch with Neon and Blanca at World Dance New York. (World Dance New York | Flamenco, Samba, Hip Hop, Bellydance Video | Flamenco, Samba, Hip Hop, Bellydance DVD) I think you'd like what they've come up with.

BTW -- gorgeous gorgeous photos. I wish you were in my area -- I'd love to have a truly professional and artistic photo shoot. :)

I thanketh thee for all the comments and suggestions. I have been photographing many types of dancers for a while , originally from 1988 when i started photographing students of the California ballet for their brochure, and two of the portraits i entered in the Professional Photographers of America print competition took first and second place out of 8000 entries with the highest score in the 52 years of the competition. I was planning to do an exhibition of the different ethnic groups to be found in S. California, from Mexican to Polynesian, Irish etc in their traditional dress. I contacted Meera whom I had been told was an excellent Indian dancer,
see below.
in 2002. She agreed but asked if it would be OK if she brought some belly dance costumes too. I said fine. Since then I have advertised to photograph other belly dancers for their cards but if you divide the time I have spent into the money I have made it would come out at less than a dime an hour. So I had an idea to do a calendar, but after research found that it was a gamble because if you don't sell them by the end of January you never will.
So I decided just to make just one book for myself of my images, which I did through Apple and iPhoto, and which is what is shown on the web page.
I showed it to a few friends and some said it is a pity no one else will see these, 'You should publish a book" I approached several publishers and agents none of whom even replied, so I looked into printing them myself as I heard that in Hong Kong you can get a book printed from $6 to $10 each whereas the Apple book cost me $60.

I have been slightly interested in mythology for some time and thought it might spice it up and add interest to the book to include some references to that stuff rather than have images only (what a mistake that was... whew... I found out just in time ).

Now after some research I am beginning to realize there is virtually no hope of selling such a book to other dancers and in fact it only seems to make them mad at me for one reason or another. So I am pretty much decided now to stick to my original idea of just making one book for myself, since I have put rather a lot of time into these images, many hundreds which have already been destroyed when my house burned down in the Cedar fires of 2003
Here are a few snaps from the first ever belly dancer shoot I did with Meera which luckily escaped the fires.
I will now take a final bow and exit stage right...
may your goddesses be with you :)
Michael (imageologist... I'm a geologist)
 
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lizaj

New member
Like some of the others I am anti the goddessy smossessystuff that goes on in the belly dance world.
BUT I don't think Michael's photos are that at all. They are pure fantasy. Mystical magical imagination is very decorative and very different from the belly dance teacher who says she has the power of the goddess, was an egyptian princes in another life etc etc and all that BS and baloney.
These are honest fantasy goddesses or modern mystical.
But for me let's have Randa and Fifi et al in fantasical pose:clap:
Also I can see Nagwa surrounded by her accolytes in flares and fezes and those sideburns:D

My only problem is all his goddesses appear to be American ones!
 

lizaj

New member
Quite frankly the last thing I need is an infuriated MacDonald lady who frolics in the snow in her kilt, brandishing her Claymore coming after me.
did you notice she said ..."I am not trying to burn you anywhere."... But I am not that brave.... :)
The Left-handed MacDonald, Alasdair the son of Colla, committed a series of atrocities against the civilians of clan Campbell. On one infamous occasion, the MacDonald leader herded a whole Campbell community in Argyll, including women and children, into a barn and burned them alive, in an incident known as the "Barn of Bone"

Well, one of them got away because I am a Campbell ( Lowder of Argyll branch ) and I do not go to Glencoe with the guilt I carry from another famous incident. Although I do have an almost equal dollop of Highland Anderson blood and a smidgeon of Donegal O'Donnell from the maternal .

I suppose the romatic image I have best fit to is that of bonny peasant woman , her capable legs striding through heather, the rain plastering her curls to her brow. Ho hum............;) Goddess not!
 

Safran

New member
Hey, just dropping into the conversation here. Yesterday, when I first read that thread my reaction was pretty much the same as many of the upset ladies here. Now, I've had time to sleep on it (aren't we all much smarter and more sensible in the mornings? ;)) and read Michael's explanations and I'd like to add a few ideas...

Firstly, Michael, I do think your work is stunning! I don't have much of an eye for art, but I love the pics you take of dancers... Some of these backgrounds I could argue, they just seem a tad too fake in my eyes, but the dancers are shown gorgeously! And, I'd probably love having a photo book with dancers. Actually, I do think that when you get the opportunity to publish it, dancers should be your number one target market! We looove when somebody celebrates our arts!

However, the problems people mentioned in this thread do arise. But I think the solution has already been offered - have an introduction to the book where you write about why you've chosen this theme, but emphasise (preferrably for several times) the fact that it is a fantasy thing. Include some statements from dancers (the ones you've photographed or I am sure there are plenty of knowledgable people on this forum who would help if you asked them). And, make sure that it comes out from all the promotion activities that will follow.

One more suggestion... In case you do choose dancers as your target group, I'd also prefer if bits of information would be published about the dancers on the photos. I remember reading that you want to list their websites at he end of the book, but maybe a small paragraph to each photo as well? Or is it already too much text for a photo book? :D

Oh, and one more thing - go and surf around the "Male Dancers" part of this forum. I can bet you will learn a lot, and hopefully also change your attitude. And then, you can take them as your next project :lol:

Wishing you success, and hoping that there will be a way your idea will be realised, in a way that would make all (or at least most of us) happy
 

Reen.Blom

New member
Michael I think most of us would really welcome your book, and it would be a wate to abandon the idea!

I think most of us would not have issues if you would drop the word "Goddess" but mythology theme is quite cute, so If you would call one "Aphrodite" instead of "goddess", etc that would bring a sigh of relief, as we truely would hate another harmful myth of bellydance supported!

PS In the end it all depends on the text that would accompany the pictures! To me it is a bit unclear if you want to write about mythology or about bellydance...LOL

Oh and the pictures are REAL JEWELS! I cant help repeating it!, Oh and I doooooo looooove the fantasy backgrounds! ;)
 

Moon

New member
Dear everyone,

Ofcourse I don't mean bellydancers should have business cards with unflattering, badly lit action shots :rolleyes:. I would just personallyprefer a clear, flattering picture of the dancer in costume posing in a bellydance related way. She doesn't need to stand on a mountain top while her skin is radiating light or something like that.
For a website I would like clear posing pictures as well as action shots. Action shots can look really nice, as Michael just showed with his pictures of Maria Sharapova better and Samantha.
Ofcourse video clips would be even better, but there is no reason to assume all action shots look bad. Just an example: the picture of Brea doing a backbend. Who thinks that one looks like an unflattering bad quality picture?
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I'm a MacDonald. As a Campbell I am sure you know what that means.

Well, the Gleghorns think you Highlanders were wasting your time fighting each other and should've come down to the Borders to fight the invaders instead of hiding out in the hills taking cheap shots at each other (sniff).

I like many of the pictures. My main objection to goddesses as a theme for a book of photography is that it has become trite and cliche, both terrible sins. It would be a shame, though, to totally abandon the idea of a book. Could you scale the extent of it back and make it less expensive? Artists sometimes get together to produce catelogs of their work; perhaps you could convince some of the dancers to throw some change into the project as it is their art that is being represented as well as your own?

My husband is a geologist who turned to carpentry. Tell the truth, Michael: how many maps do you keep in your car at any given time?:) I wish you wouldn't disappear off the forum, though. This thread has been extremely entertaining.
 
What's in a name?

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. See new title for book below

I am abandoning the belly dancer/ goddess theme as it seems to be a BIG problemo, and the last thing I had in mind was to upset anyone. So I am going with the flow metamorphosing, or as the French say reculier pour mieux sauter.

Photography is dead, but a new form of expression is arising from the ashes. Negative/positive Photography as we know it was invented not far from my home in England .

The French physicist, Joseph Nicéphore Niepce, made the first negative (on paper) in 1816 and the first known photograph (on metal; he called it a heliograph) in 1826. In 1827 Niepce had also begun his association with Louis Jacques Mandé Daguerre, a French painter who had been experimenting along parallel lines. A partnership was formed and they collaborated until Niepce's death in 1833, after which Daguerre continued their work for the next six years. In 1839 he announced the invention of a method for making a direct positive image on a silver plate—the daguerreotype.

Daguerre's announcement was a source of dismay to the English scientist William Henry Fox Talbot, who had been experimenting independently along related lines for years. Talbot had evolved a method for making a paper negative from which an infinite number of paper positives could be created. He had also worked out an effective although imperfect technique for permanently “fixing” his images. Concerned that he might lose the rights to his own invention, the calotype process, Talbot wrote to the French Academy of Sciences, asserting the priority of his own invention. He then lost no time in presenting his researches to England's Royal Society, of which he was a distinguished member.

Thus started the great debate as to whether photography can be considered as its own form of Art. The main objection was that it is primarily a mechanical process that handles most of the work—that the photographer has nothing further to do with it, other than some manipulation in the printing of the picture , and of course many photographers send their negaties to the lab for printing so the photographers usually had no idea what the results, if any, would be.
Digital 'photography' has changed everything. We no longer need a dark room full of smelly and often toxic chemicals, we no longer have to send work to a lab for printing, everything is in the control of the artist ... for good or bad.

I started experimenting with this new way of creating images in the 90s and have been teaching workshop and seminars to other photographers in Europe and the USA on digital photography, Adobe Photoshop and Corel Painter for 12 years.

One of the things that interests me is the combination of different elements seamlessly in the same image so that the impression is that the content is real when in fact it is imaginary. I have often used dancers as a source of inspiration for these images and combined them with elements of the landscape to create a visual metaphor for perhaps an emotional response or an intangible idea. These often have both the characteristics of reality and fantasy, all the elements may be real but the configuration is fanciful or 'fantasiful'.

I have never taken any classes in art or photography and everything I have learned has come from experimentation. This has resulted in a large collection of images that no one else has ever seen. I felt I would like to commit these images to some permanent record perhaps in the form of a book. Hoping also to at least cover my costs I wanted to make something that could be marketed and my first thought was to create a book with a theme such as a belly dancer motif. However I realize now that this probably limits its appeal and potential market so I am now considering including other subjects from landscape to flowers and figures, and the theme will be a new way of creating images using tools from traditional photography, painting and from digital technology .

Anyway I have to stop and make some coffee, below are a few more experiments The 'Cheerful Cherub' is one of my first attempts, it is my son Alex when he was 6 months old, he is now 15 and 6 feet 1 in and he hates the picture!!!
 
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What's in a name?

Michael I think most of us would really welcome your book, and it would be a wate to abandon the idea!

I think most of us would not have issues if you would drop the word "Goddess" but mythology theme is quite cute, so If you would call one "Aphrodite" instead of "goddess", etc that would bring a sigh of relief, as we truely would hate another harmful myth of bellydance supported!

PS In the end it all depends on the text that would accompany the pictures! To me it is a bit unclear if you want to write about mythology or about bellydance...LOL

Oh and the pictures are REAL JEWELS! I cant help repeating it!, Oh and I doooooo looooove the fantasy backgrounds!
__________________
auribus teneo lupum

Thanks Reen.... ( Let go of that poor wolf's ears !) see above all mention of goddesses are being exorcised, expunged and eradicated.
since you speak latin...
Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis
 
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da Sage

New member
I personally feel that if Michael wants to use the name Goddess of the Dance, and the Goddess-inspired theme, that is perfectly fine. He's an artist, with an artistic vision...not a bellydancer or history author.

The pictures are gorgeous, and having them out there in book form will only promote bellydance. I'm not sure who usually buys coffee-table books, but I might buy this one just to drool over the costumes. I think Michael should continue with the project, as it has real commercial potential (IMO).

Why deny beauty to the world, just because our community disagrees about the Goddess thing?
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Don't you DARE leave!!!!! I want to see more of these amazing photos!!

I've seen the ones of Meera. Actually I kept one of her postcards because I was so impressed with the photos. You rock!!

HEY------------ IDEA!!!!!!

Have you ever thought about making these available online as poster prints? I'd LOVE to have some of these for my studio. I'm tired of the generic "belly" or "belly with snake" pictures.

You can't just throw us this amazing jewel and then take it away. Let us play with it!!!! I want to see more mythic images!! I'll buy the book!

Seriously, you can't just send emails to publishers and expect a response. You need a rep or an agent. You do what you have to do, but I honestly think you could make this work.

If you don't want to invest the energy and time in getting a rep, how about something like this, going this route:
Amazon.com: Digital Text Platform: Sign In
 
Well, one of them got away because I am a Campbell ( Lowder of Argyll branch ) and I do not go to Glencoe with the guilt I carry from another famous incident. Although I do have an almost equal dollop of Highland Anderson blood and a smidgeon of Donegal O'Donnell from the maternal .

I suppose the romatic image I have best fit to is that of bonny peasant woman , her capable legs striding through heather, the rain plastering her curls to her brow. Ho hum............;) Goddess not!

CRUACHAN ! to you... and lang may yer lams reek.

Below is a fantasy of a ruin of a castle built by some of my ancestors , The lady is Erin..NO NO, NOT THE CELTIC GODDESS HER NAME REALLY IS ERIN...and yes she is another belly dancer...

see also my pic of Kilchurn at Clan Campbell Society
Clan Campbell Society (NA) - Kilchurn Castle

I took this a few years ago and gave a copy to the clan chief then Ian Campbell, Duke of Argyll, when I had dinner with him at Inveraray (and also in California when he came to Santa Rosa highland games) the other snap is Alex and me at another Campbell Castle. Castle Stalker.
My friend and chief historian of the Clan is Alastair Campbell and on BBC TV Feb 12 1962 (300 years after THE event He was counsel for the defense at a trial at which the Campbells were proclaimed NOT GUILTY of the Massacre of Glencoe..
But that is a long story...some other time if you are interested...
as the motto says
Ne Obliviscaris Vix Ea Nostro Voco. (let us not forget the glories of our past )
 
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Well, the Gleghorns think you Highlanders were wasting your time fighting each other and should've come down to the Borders to fight the invaders instead of hiding out in the hills taking cheap shots at each other (sniff).

I like many of the pictures. My main objection to goddesses as a theme for a book of photography is that it has become trite and cliche, both terrible sins. It would be a shame, though, to totally abandon the idea of a book. Could you scale the extent of it back and make it less expensive? Artists sometimes get together to produce catelogs of their work; perhaps you could convince some of the dancers to throw some change into the project as it is their art that is being represented as well as your own?

My husband is a geologist who turned to carpentry. Tell the truth, Michael: how many maps do you keep in your car at any given time?:) I wish you wouldn't disappear off the forum, though. This thread has been extremely entertaining.

Actually the Campbell's were from the original British race and were in Scotland centuries before the MacDonalds.

Well I used to have a LOT of maps, I really like maps actually. I made a geological map of iona.

Here is a snap of Tarciana, she is from Brazil, I made yesterday. She used to live in Japan and also France so speaks 4 languages and she make costumes for other dancers.
 
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Lydia

New member
i missed this conversation!! i think you are a real artist!! michael you make very beautiful pics....i hope you will be taking pics and show them to the world for many years to come,...and great if you can pick another name,the goddess thing is not much liked as you well know by now lol....but please show us more and more you have so many nice idea,s ,,bravo,, thank you for sharing your work with us,have a nice pictures day!! Lydia
 

karena

New member
If you don't want to invest the energy and time in getting a rep, how about something like this, going this route:
Amazon.com: Digital Text Platform: Sign In

Or bobbooks.co.uk. I just made a book through them (not received yet), and it took me an age, but a creative person might have the skills to make it a whole lot easier. Btw, if you do use them, and you use a Mac but run parallels (they only make a PC version), you need the photos to sit outside software otherwise they are tiny. If the cap fits, I can explain that better, but it would be boring if that doesn't apply or mean anything...
 

lizaj

New member
CRUACHAN ! to you... and lang may yer lams reek.

Below is a fantasy of a ruin of a castle built by some of my ancestors , The lady is Erin..NO NO, NOT THE CELTIC GODDESS HER NAME REALLY IS ERIN...and yes she is another belly dancer...

see also my pic of Kilchurn at Clan Campbell Society
Clan Campbell Society (NA) - Kilchurn Castle

I took this a few years ago and gave a copy to the clan chief then Ian Campbell, Duke of Argyll, when I had dinner with him at Inveraray (and also in California when he came to Santa Rosa highland games) the other snap is Alex and me at another Campbell Castle. Castle Stalker.
My friend and chief historian of the Clan is Alastair Campbell and on BBC TV Feb 12 1962 (300 years after THE event He was counsel for the defense at a trial at which the Campbells were proclaimed NOT GUILTY of the Massacre of Glencoe..
But that is a long story...some other time if you are interested...
as the motto says
Ne Obliviscaris Vix Ea Nostro Voco. (let us not forget the glories of our past )


Okay cousin..I'll look into that..makes me feel better and maybe I shouldn't fear the Glen....:) Just blame the English, everyone else does!
 

*elly belly*

New member
oh my goodness these pictures are FANTABULOUS! (yes amazing enough for my own word) if i become a famous bellydancer please say you'll photograph me.
 

teela

New member
Michael, you have done some wonderful work. My first response to the title goddesses of dance was hmmmmm. I realize you are using the term goddesses in the way of beautiful women, not as the other context that people has mentioned. If you choose to stay with the original title, it would seem the other interpretation is likely to be the one people use. I also see where the original title is appropriate in the context. I'm not sure there is another phrase you can use that has the same meaning.
Do not be discouraged and do try to find a publisher. It seems to me that no matter what you want to title the book, if it is published by someone else, they will choose the title.
 
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da Sage

New member
Actually, it looks like he is going with a theme of particular bellydancers portraying particular goddesses. I think it's a really cool idea, and I think the original title (or similar) is particularly appropriate.

I have had a few dancers tell me they really feel the goddess through their dance. That's kinda weird to me, but if it works for them...it's really none of my business. And those dancers would LOVE this book, even more than I would.

If you start censoring your art, you won't please yourself. So why bother?
 
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