Um, what?!

Aisha Azar

New member
What?

I was just talking to a local dancer about doing a little show together and I asked her what songs she was using. She said she had a CD with songs on it but her teacher never told her who or what the songs were (on purpose, keeping it a secret, so they could not practice anywhere but with her). So I have to get together with her to listen to her songs so we can figure out what they are...

Has anyone heard of anything like this before?!


Dear Brea,
Is she SURE the teacher is doing that for some furtive reason? I often do not know the name of some song or other because so much of what I have for music is all in Arabic. Tis is just a thought. Many times I am not even sure of the artists because I have "inherited" so much music from people who were leaving for home and not wanting to take their tapes or CDs back with them.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
We had a lot of that down here, but I don't think it was a deliberate secret. Zeina (Dee Birnbaum) used to bring back cassettes of dance music that SHE got from who knows where in Egypt, and a lot of times the tracks were simply named "Oriental Dance Routine" or "Hagallah" or "Saidi One."

Nashwa in Kentucky brings back from Egypt remixes and versions of songs that we recognize but the artist doesn't CALL it by the name we recognize.

Sometimes workshop instructors will give you field recordings of ethnic music, or they'll give you music THEIR instructor gave them, and it may not be named. I have a lot of Tunisian and Bedouin and Ghawazee music that isn't named. I recognize some of the pieces as being songs on OTHER cds, but couldn't tell you the names.

ALSO -- I gave my first set of students a compilation CD (I know - it's illegal. I don't do it anymore.) Anyway, I also included a sheet of paper with a track listing and description of the song and why I chose it to represent what. Well, come to find out one of those students complained to my mentor that she didn't know what the name of the song was because I NEVER TOLD HER. I asked her if she got the paper, and she said she lost it.

So how is it this MY FAULT? I would have made her another copy.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Well, like we agreed in other threads, you get a LOT of neurotics in the bellydance world. It's not the first weird thing you've heard, obviously, and it probably won't be the last. I feel sorry for students stuck with people like that -- but fortunately she's got YOU for a guide and influence!
 

Ecuabellydancer

New member
I was just talking to a local dancer about doing a little show together and I asked her what songs she was using. She said she had a CD with songs on it but her teacher never told her who or what the songs were (on purpose, keeping it a secret, so they could not practice anywhere but with her). So I have to get together with her to listen to her songs so we can figure out what they are...

Has anyone heard of anything like this before?!

Yep, sounds familiar, but in my case even worse because this teacher would burn an ugly voice recording over each song. The recording said something like "This is an exclusive recording for X dance school" Like Hakim and Amr Diab would do an exclusive recording for a dance school in Ecuador :lol:
 

Safran

New member
I can imagine the situation as Brea described happening. I don't understand it at all, but I've seen quite a few people who hide just about every bit of information... just to make sure noone else would benefit from it. However, the situation of the dance school of Ecuador is completely ridiculous. They try to put an ownership mark on the music that probably never belonged to them in the first place. :rolleyes:
 

jenc

New member
Has anyone else noticed that on IAMED dvds they give a credit to the catering, but not to the musicians and not to the music used on the performances at the end, even where they are obviously recorded. There is one sweet pop song on one of my dvds that I would love to know. I always thought it was illegal to use songs without credit.
 

Yshka

New member
Wow Brea, Ive not heard of such things around here, but I can imagine it sucks. Ecuabellydancer described something that quite freaked me out. Why put voice recording over the music if it's not something you produced yourself?
I'm happy to hear that you're there to help. Maybe you could upload some short samples of the songs you cannot figure out, maybe other members here can help. We ID stuff in the music section all the time.

I've got a couple of cd's that have only "Bellydance" or "Mizmar Saidi" written on them, the rest being in Arabic. In this case I understand if the teacher doesn't know the title, but personally I'd want to get it translated. The mizmar saidi album however didn't even need translating. When I put it on it turned out to be Egyptian classical songs played on mizmar:think:. Can you believe it? Ana fi Entizarak... Alf Layla w Layla.... on mizmar??? Called Saidi??? lol. Quite funny to listen to though.

Anyhow, I did a compilation for my students once and also included a paper which credited the musicians and listed song titles in the cd cover. Why keep that information from anybody??
 

Gia al Qamar

New member
One of my first teachers, I am sorry to say, used to burn FULL CDs compiling all her favorite songs (they were great!) and would list them by name, or by a description but sh'ed never give the artist's name or the name of the song so that others (she told me) wouldn't 'have' to run out and buy a whole CD of music...that they'd just rely on her for the 'best' music.
OK.
She didn't stay as my teacher for long...
Gia
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Music, etc.

One of my first teachers, I am sorry to say, used to burn FULL CDs compiling all her favorite songs (they were great!) and would list them by name, or by a description but sh'ed never give the artist's name or the name of the song so that others (she told me) wouldn't 'have' to run out and buy a whole CD of music...that they'd just rely on her for the 'best' music.
OK.
She didn't stay as my teacher for long...

Gia


Dear Gia,
Intellectual property rights laws make it illegal for us to use either film or music , even in class, without express permission from the owners of said music and film. ASCAP and BMI and film companies have very strict licensing rules, and often they are expensive as well. They also do not CARE whether or not you are helping them to make money. You can google copyright law and find out all about it. I went to an intellectual property seminar to find out exactly what the laws are and they are VERY clear that if you are making money, in any way then they want you to pay for it in advance. It does not matter it THEY stole the music from countries with which they have no copyright agreement, Legally WE still have to pay. There are even laws about how to handle it if you can not find the owners of the music. If you can find a piece of music that is not in public domain and has no copyright, you have the right to copyright it yourself, even if you had nothing to do with it being made. The laws are ridiculous and are set up to protect big companies.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
I've got a couple of cd's that have only "Bellydance" or "Mizmar Saidi" written on them, the rest being in Arabic.

I've bought a lot of CDs online from Egypt and Turkey, and some Balkan and Serbian music, and a LOT of it ends up being an obviously copied version of what I can only assume is some pop CD floating around somewhere. I know the laws in Turkey are different from the laws here, and they don't see "intellectual property" as being the big hairy deal that American record companies do.

Of course, it's not great for dancers to get one of these "homemade" CDs because we can't credit the original artist. I have a cd of GREAT drum solos, and I'd love to dance to some of them, but I don't know if it's Setrak, Hossam Ramzy, Karim Nagi, Amir Sofi -- or somebody's Uncle Billybob. !

Miles Copeland, on Tribe, expounded at LENGTH on intellectual copyright and music licensing issues for dancers, specifically. If I can find the links, I'll post them. There are a lot of myths and misunderstandings running around in regards to music licensing, and it's not always clear-cut as to who must be paid, whose permissions you need, and which licensing agencies handle what music.


Fortunately, in the modern era, we have the wonder of Amazon MP3 and iTunes. I can create an entire CD "playlist" of songs for my students, and they can download them legally for about half the cost of one regular CD. iTunes (I think) has an option where you can share your playlist with the world, so we could even start a resource thread of teachers' favorite playlists of Lebanese songs, or favorite songs for Tribal, or fave classical Egyptian songs. Ain't technology grand!
 

Aisha Azar

New member
The Net and intellectual property

There is a book that explains how and what companies are beginning to do to protect intellectual property on the net. It is:

The Future of Ideas: The Fate of the Commons in a Connected World
Author- Lawrence Lessig
Copyright 2001
ISBN- 0_375-50578-4
The book goes into details about resources held in common and how the Net is right now pretty much a free resource, but also how this is getting really complicated and how companies want to have more financial control over it, etc. In the process of reading the book, there is much to be learned about intellectual property law. I am no expert on this, but Ne Kajira Janan is.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Gia al Qamar

New member
Dear Gia,
Intellectual property rights laws make it illegal for us to use either film or music , even in class, without express permission from the owners of said music and film. ASCAP and BMI and film companies have very strict licensing rules, and often they are expensive as well. They also do not CARE whether or not you are helping them to make money. You can google copyright law and find out all about it. I went to an intellectual property seminar to find out exactly what the laws are and they are VERY clear that if you are making money, in any way then they want you to pay for it in advance. It does not matter it THEY stole the music from countries with which they have no copyright agreement, Legally WE still have to pay. There are even laws about how to handle it if you can not find the owners of the music. If you can find a piece of music that is not in public domain and has no copyright, you have the right to copyright it yourself, even if you had nothing to do with it being made. The laws are ridiculous and are set up to protect big companies.
Regards,
A'isha

A'isha,
You're preaching to the choir here.
My husband is a musician and I despise the notion of ANY artist being robbed.
I make (your above) same speech on a regular basis to my students, fellow dancers and dance teachers.
I should mention that this happened when I first began studying (many moons ago), I never bought her bootlegs and I was just sharing my like-experience with the op.
Gia
 
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Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Brea, here's the thread:
Musical copyright - The Biz of Belly Dance - tribe.net

I think this one addresses what you're asking about.

Miles has gone into other, longer, more complicated answers to specific questions about licensing, but this one covers the basics.

Every producer I've talked to and every attorney who weighs in on this subject has said you (or your dance school) DO need to purchase a SPECIAL license to use music for teaching a dance class. It depends on what you're teaching and how many students you have. Check ASCAP's website for pdfs on dance school licensing.

BUT -- I teach 6-week "Fitness in the Workplace" classes on-site at various businesses. My area ASCAP rep told me (because of my situation) I would have to purchase a license for EACH location that I teach at. I think this is absolutely ridiculous and have NO intention of doing so (Most of the music I use isn't even in their catalog, and I'm fairly certain Ozel Turkbas and the Rhabani brothers aren't seeing a penny from my fees.) The license costs more than what I'm paid to DO these classes.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Copyright, etc.

Dear Forum members,
I find that much as we do with the dance, we all eventually rely on our own sense of what is right and wrong to decide where WE personally draw the line. But it IS important to know what the rules are so that if it ever becomes an issue, we can at least know what we are up against. It seems like its okay to be an agency and break ethical and moral standards, but that individuals are much more at legal risk when we do it, when it comes to intellectual copyright laws.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
There are artists like Suhaila, now Paul Dinletir, Dorku, and others who are going out of their way to produce independent music with VERY reasonable licensing fees. I was trying to switch to using their music exclusively in my fitness classes, and I probably should do this sooner rather than later.

Another option for classes is using a live drummer (which we often had in modern dance class) but I think this limits the instructor to ONLY being able to show students how to dance to the rhythm. Any thoughts on this? Anybody use a drummer in class?
 
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