Help me help my student

Jane

New member
Help help help!

I have a wonderful and sweet lady who has been my student for two years now. I'm having terrible trouble getting her to make a connection to the music. Any connection. She can't find the beat. I encourage her to listen to music when she's not in class. I turn the bass all the way up and we clap together, I count with and for her, but she can't find the beat by herself. She does okay when she dances with someone else, but can't dance alone and rushes thorough the music like its not there. At first I thought she might just be nervous, but it's been two years. She's had her hearing checked out already, so it's not that either. I'm at my wits end! Any ideas or possible explinations would be greatly appriciated! I feel really bad. :(
 

karena

New member
I'm a musician so the not finding the beat thing mystifies me; I can't not hear the beat, even if I try. So I have given much thought to this issue, still in progress at the moment. My latest idea (this is all in my head, but it has been occupying alot of my head recently, seriously too much) is what happens if you try to get someone who can't hear the beat to consciously make an effort to dance against the beat. Not just think they are dancing to the beat and doing it 'wrong', but really make an effort to not hit any beat.

My theory is that is comes down to believing they can't hear the beat. And they have thought for so long they can't, that eventually they can't as their mind is all caught up in believing that. They can't just switch out of it as they have programmed their mind to do this (not consciously just through reiteration). Dancing deliberately against the beat actually requires hearing the beat, but without communicating that directly to the mind. So the mind might forget it 'can't' hear the beat, and actually start to hear it, and then it's only one stage away from then hearing it to use it rather than hearing it to not use it. Hope that makes sense.

Might be utter nonsense, but would love to hear thoughts on it from people who 'can't' hear the beat.
 

Lydia

New member
did you try this , on a time when nobody is in class,put music on that she is familair with ,any music,to imagion that she is in a party and to clap on it...not nessecary arabic music ,but any music she likes....just do that and see if she can pick it up,make sure she is relaxed just sit whit her and move and clap even let her close her eye,s so she can feel it,make sure nobody is there just you and her , START WITH A SLOW EASY BEAT i have students like that and by going easy and keep on encouraging them they slowly become better,for some people it just comes easy for some it takes time...did you hear people say,,she just dont have rithme? i think that is what they than mean,...sorry for my clumsy english just woke up LOL,goodluck with this lady if she is still with you after 2 years like this ,you must tressure her,have a nice day Lydia
 

Jahzaal

New member
What's their favorite song?

I agree with Lydia. There are a few people I know that just can't seem to get it. I always ask what their favorite song is. Then I work the song into the music by singing it, as well as dancing the moves. It always works. Good Luck
 
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sedoniaraqs

New member
I think there are a very few people who truly do not have any sense of rhythm.

In these cases, I don't think there is any way to train into them what is not inherent. I have only experienced one student like this in my life as a dancer. I worked with her in private lessons. We stomped the ground together. We drummed our tummies. We clapped and snapped our fingers. I loaned her a tambourine. I tried just percussive music, western music, nothing helped. She showed no improvement over a number of months of weekly classes supplemented with private lessons, even though I know she was trying hard and practicing at home. She moved quite nicely with fluid movements but her musicality was just about hopeless because she couldn't hear the beat.

I talked to an acquaintance who was a drummer and he agreed that truly rhythm-less people are rare, and they generally do not get better no matter what kind of training they have.

The phrase "he/she doesn't have any rhythm" gets misused alot. Most people who think they don't have rhythm really just haven't developed the coordination to do a certain kind of dancing or play a certain instrument. This, of course, can be rectified with training and practice.

Sedonia
 

janaki

New member
Tips that are helping my students!!!

Hi Jane,

I hav few students with same problems in my class. The things I am doing to help them ( seems to be working so far) are...

1. Listen to the clock's ticking sound when you are in the bed and relaxing. Say the ticking sound loudly. You can ask her to add a simple move like, tapping on the bed, contracting the stomach or anything that works in a lying position to the ticking. Working in their privacy and in a relaxed situtation helps them to understand the problem. Many of these students don't even know what the problem is. Not knowing the problems doesn't help to solve it. This excercise helps them to understand the problem.

2. Metronome is a great tool to train also. You can vary they tempo of the beat. Start with counting loudly and tapping the feet and add other moves later on.

3. Introduce a slow piece of music firstly with rhythm only (slow baladi, saidi or maksoum work good) and ask her to clap on the dums and then teks and dums and teks. Later you play simple rhythms like above with one intruments with a melody. Later you can introduce more textures in the meoldy. After clapping, introduce stepping and other moves. This slow and progessvie introduction is really heling my students.

4. Play a piece of slow music with an even beat and make her count the beat loud and clap few times. When she is into it, take off the volume and let her keep clapping. Tburn the volume up after a while. She will then understand what is going on if she is off beat.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Janaki
 

KuteNurse

New member
I am wondering if she may have some hearing loss involved. I know deaf people can pick up the beat of music...Marlee Matlin is an example in dancing with the stars.
 

Marya

Member
Help help help!

I have a wonderful and sweet lady who has been my student for two years now. I'm having terrible trouble getting her to make a connection to the music. Any connection. She can't find the beat. I encourage her to listen to music when she's not in class. I turn the bass all the way up and we clap together, I count with and for her, but she can't find the beat by herself. She does okay when she dances with someone else, but can't dance alone and rushes thorough the music like its not there. At first I thought she might just be nervous, but it's been two years. She's had her hearing checked out already, so it's not that either. I'm at my wits end! Any ideas or possible explinations would be greatly appriciated! I feel really bad. :(

Jane,

I will use myself as an example since I am a lot like your student. I am still dancing after 15 years and my teacher says I am doing much better.

You are doing everything right, just have patience. I couldn't dance by myself for 10 years. I have a wonderful friend I dance with in duets and she helped keep me on the beat. If you have student performances planned just put your student where she can see the other dancers and have the other dancers help her.

Rhythms I could hear easily were 9/8 like Tamzara or American style Karshilamas. Odd meters seemed easier to "hear" than regular 4/4. I also use cues in the melody like a certain instrument or passage of music that can tell me if I am ahead of the beat or behind.

I prefer to use the melody to help me interpret the music, hearing the beat is only critical if you are using a choreography, have you asked her to try improvising?

I also started folkdancing which helped a lot. Being surrounded by lots of people all doing the same movements allowed me to absorb the rhythm unconsciously.

It can be frustrating for the student too, especially if she feels deficient and other students criticize.

Some teachers have given up on me and others have been helpful. I had one teacher tell me she thought most people had trouble hearing the beat and that was why she spent a lot of time with clapping and explanations of the meter. Hearing the beat easily is a talent, but those who can hear it easily don't understand how someone might not hear it.

I think some people can fake it because they can count at a measured pace but they aren't necessarily "hearing" the beat

Try not to give your student the impression she is disabled or deaf.

After many years (15) of listening to music, dancing, dancing and dancing, I can actually hear the beat most of the time. I still do better with odd metered music.

Just let her have fun, have patience and don't focus on what she can't do.

Marya
 

Moon

New member
There's no problem with her ears. Some people are just very talented with hearing the beat, some have to think first and some have trouble with it. I think it can be learned though, but it's probably easier when you start at a younger age.

So far I've had 3 fellow students who had a lot of trouble hearing the beat. However, it got a little better after about 2 years. (The girls I'm talking about are in their early 20s)
I do think the lady in your class will get better eventually but it might take a bit longer than for younger people maybe.
The problem is the others are probably also getting better so it might not be very noticeable it's getting better. It could also be true what Karena says, that's she got stuck in this idea of "not being able to learn to hear the beat" so therefor she doesn't learn.
 

Jane

New member
I'm going to try everything! :D It may take some time of course- we'll see if anything takes. I see her again next Tuesday. I'm going to space some things out so she won't lose the confidence she has. I think I'll try some of the ideas with all of my students in turn and then also work with my beat-less lady before or after class as well.

Intersting theory about trying to not dance on the beat Karena. I'd like to try that with all my students and see what happens! Lydia, I definatly treasure her as a student and as a person, I admire her for sticking with belly dance when it dosen't come easy for her. Sedonia, I agree that people with no rhythm are very few and far between, I've only met two in my life time, this student and my Dad! Janaki, I love the metronome idea. I have a small electronic one I keep in my dance bag, but I never thought to use it that way. KateNurse, hearing loss was the first thing that came to my mind too, but I asker her and she said her hearings fine. Marya, I'll try to stay tactful and patient- I promise ;) My beat-less lady is around 40ish if I had to take a guess; does anyone think that taking up dance at a later age has anything to do with it? I think it's more likely an individual issue.
 

Moon

New member
I think people can be born with a natural talent for hearing the beat. But going to music lessons or dance lessons at an early age will definitely help developing the skill. If this lady never had music or dance lessons before her late 30s, I would think it could take some more time before she develops the skill.
 

Maria_Aya

New member
I think found this thread kind of late, great advices from all !!!
As a rythm/beat/dum/teq exersice we walk around the class on the dum, just walking, they get bored, i mean walking for once per month in different rythms for 20 min!! they want to kill me, we joke mean time, I try to make them forget the music, tease eachother, forget the music, but still keep on walking on the dum till it comes natural.
It helps alot in general, but yes I do have students that doesnt hear the dum, and general the rythm.
But what can we do if we have students like this, and dont take privite lessons? we cant stop a whole class because of this, so try to put it in the teaching method.

maria aya :)
 

karena

New member
Re the age thing, I have been playing an instrument from an early age which I think is why I cannot avoid hearing a beat. I've also therefore developed the tools to articulate that beat, eg I'll do a really tiny beating of the time with my hand when I am first trying to understand it, because I know how the hand moves when it's beating in time. So I think it has a part to play. In terms of my theory about convincing yourself that you can't hear the beat, imo the student will have had a long time to reiterate in her mind that idea that she can't hear the beat, so age embeds that idea further, so being older could increase that

(btw, I was thinking the other day that I didn't want anyone to thing I am saying the not being able to hear the beat isn't 'real'. I think everything we do or 'can't' do comes down to our belief system. So all the positive as well as the negative stems from this same place, so I'm not saying one iota that it is 'just in her mind' in a derogatory sense; everything is just in our minds. If that makes any sense...)
 

Eve

New member
good suggestions in the thread, regarding age, I take singing lessons and the running joke at home is 'you've been going x amount of years and you still take lessons?'
Well yes because before going to lessons we have lots of years of using our body (voice) in a certain way. For an hour or so a week we are looking to change a habit that has been with us for years 24hours a day. So it will take time and conscious effort. The plus side is you start to become aware when you misalign and can begin to self adjust.
 

Aniseteph

New member
I think it's real. Usually I don't have any problems, but occasionally it takes me a while to "get" the beat with some of those more unusual ones. It's very confusing while you are there, so I sympathise with your student.

I saw a YouTube with someone dancing to I Put a Spell on You (Natacha Atlas version) which I'm very familiar with and it's really "easy" beat-wise, but the audience were clapping along loudly and on an odd beat. I could hear the melody and the drum beats but they didn't form into the right pattern, it was just notes and drums and my brain wouldn't put it together as music. Very strange. When I watched it again knowing what it was, I could hear the music fine. :confused:

I do think music/dance at an early age helps - much easier to just absorb things then. When you are older it takes longer, and you can make it harder if you keep thinking oh I'll never get this. :(
 

Azrael

New member
I am a student, so maybe this is completely useless advice coming from me... :)
I teach one of my friends on and off (lets make her name Sue). Sue always begs me to teach her dances - she never wants to concentrate on the actual moves, and combo's. Her dad is a musician, so I find it really strange that growing up with a musical background that she also struggles to find the beat.
She can remember dances just fine, but she seems to act as though the dance and the music are 2 seperate entities.
I used to struggle with finding the beat, and I feel that sometimes its quite easy to hear the beat if I sit down and just listen to the music for a bit.
In my classes we only get the music once we have learnt the dance, so when I get a song at the end of learning one of our dances, I'll sit and listen to it once, (JUST listening) then the second time around, I close my eyes and imagine myself doing it. It helps me find the beats in all the right places because im not concentrating on DOING the moves.

Dont know if this'll help... try it out?
 
Great thread! But may I make a statement?
We seem to focus on 'the beat' as if there is only one? Turkish and Arabic music is infused with many beats at diffeent tempos. For the Western ear and new dancer it is difficult to hear all of them and know they are all part of the music. Also too, the drum may be the foundation, but sometimes it will weave in and out of the song.

So Jane which 'beat' are you trying to ge her to hear? Or are you talking about a specific rhythmic pattern?
Can she tell the difference between drums and other instruments?

I have many students who are challenged in terms of music and moving at the same time. Patience and acceptance are the true teachers in this instance. I can't imagine another dance form that would be more forgiving than belly dance...so I'm glad to hear that she's sticking with it(and you too!:D)
Yasmine
 

Jane

New member
This student has been dancing for two years. I play all types of Middle Eastern music, including non-dance stuff also, just to listen to before and after class and during stretching, for familiarity sake. I carefully explain these basic concepts on a regular basis:

types/countries
layering of musical elements
instruments
maqam
time signatures
rhythms
quarter & microtones
melody
taxeem
call & response
lown
famous singers/songs/composers

The beat is the first thing I explain. "There is an underlying pulse to the music, even when not pronounced, that can change tempo during the song, this is the beat."

We clap together, then walk on the beat, then strike a zill on the dominant hand while walking to the beat, etc. I try to stress feeling the beat because I think this is the fist thing average people can find in a new music form. This student is still unable to do this alone after two years. When she dances alone she goes through the student chorography perfectly, but as if there is no music playing at all. I put out the blanket statement about "being an active listener" and "letting the music flow through your body and come out as dance", but it's not working for her.

I see her tonight in class, I'll try some of the suggestions and see if anything helps her. I'll let you guys know how it goes. :)
 

Marya

Member
I'm going to try everything! :D It may take some time of course- we'll see if anything takes. I see her again next Tuesday. I'm going to space some things out so she won't lose the confidence she has. I think I'll try some of the ideas with all of my students in turn and then also work with my beat-less lady before or after class as well.

Intersting theory about trying to not dance on the beat Karena. I'd like to try that with all my students and see what happens! Lydia, I definatly treasure her as a student and as a person, I admire her for sticking with belly dance when it dosen't come easy for her. Sedonia, I agree that people with no rhythm are very few and far between, I've only met two in my life time, this student and my Dad! Janaki, I love the metronome idea. I have a small electronic one I keep in my dance bag, but I never thought to use it that way. KateNurse, hearing loss was the first thing that came to my mind too, but I asker her and she said her hearings fine. Marya, I'll try to stay tactful and patient- I promise ;) My beat-less lady is around 40ish if I had to take a guess; does anyone think that taking up dance at a later age has anything to do with it? I think it's more likely an individual issue.

I went to a folk dance workshop (Armenian) recently and was reminded of how much that type of dance helped me with hearing the meter of the music. I highly recommend Balkan Folkdancing as an exercise for learning to hear the music better.

I didn't have much musical training when I was young, I had some which is why I can recognize the different notes on sheet music and can actually read music a little, but I really didn't have much talent, I can't tell sharp from flat. I also had some dance lessons when really young, because my sister taught ballet, but I truly found folkdancing to be the key to being a better dancer.

Marya
 
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