Yes,
No offense to anyone if they believe in the mother goddess, but it just strikes me as weird. lol
The Mother Goddess
- Thread starter Brea
- Start date
Yes,
No offense to anyone if they believe in the mother goddess, but it just strikes me as weird. lol
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
The world is a huge place, in both space and time. I'm quite sure that someone, somewhere, sometime danced something that we might recognize as "Belly Dance" in honor of one Goddess or another. Maybe even in a temple, maybe not; in a sacred space to be certain. Ditto for honoring one or more Gods.
I have no problems with the Goddessey types (I've danced with my share of them); if such a belief gets them through the day, who am I to gainsay them? It makes as much sense as any other religion, and is far more wholesome than most that we encounter in the world today.
As for myself, I'm a good old fashioned polytheist, and I honor many Gods and Goddesses although my patron "just happens to be" a Goddess, the Goddess Athena. Unlike most Pagans, I'm not a Duotheist after the Gardnerian model. And I most certainly am NOT a monotheist!
I'm glad several have mentioned the spiritual aspect of dance - that *is* the ultimate draw for me. The beauty and spirituality.
I have no problems with the Goddessey types (I've danced with my share of them); if such a belief gets them through the day, who am I to gainsay them? It makes as much sense as any other religion, and is far more wholesome than most that we encounter in the world today.
As for myself, I'm a good old fashioned polytheist, and I honor many Gods and Goddesses although my patron "just happens to be" a Goddess, the Goddess Athena. Unlike most Pagans, I'm not a Duotheist after the Gardnerian model. And I most certainly am NOT a monotheist!
I'm glad several have mentioned the spiritual aspect of dance - that *is* the ultimate draw for me. The beauty and spirituality.
Jane
New member
I'm Wiccan. I keep my religious dance to myself, not in a public venu. I tell people the history of American Belly Dance and the Original Ethnic dance forms from what I've researched as historical fact.
A historical aspect: In the late 1800's and early 1900's many things were popular in Great Brit. and America and got a bit mixed in with each other: Ruth St. Denis, spirtitism, Orientalism, Alister Crowley & his Golden Dawn bunch, the works of James George Frazer & Robert Graves, Magick & Stage Magic, ancient Egypt, Theosophy, etc. Modern Wicca was influenced by many of these things.
At the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, the first "belly dancers" were popularized in America. I think because American Belly Dance is descended from Orientalism of this time, a bit of these other ideas got mixed in because they were popular culture.
Later things got mixed again. The works of Joseph Campbell had an influence on the Mother Goddess movement of the late 1960's and early 70's. Some of these people were also discovering belly dance at the same time. San Francisco spawned Renaissance Fairs and the SCA, Marrion Zimmer Bradley and her influential book "Mists of Avalon", Feminism, Bal Anat and what eventually became ATS, Hippies, and neo-paganism. A lot of folks were active in several of these counter-culture groups. I think it's an American phenomena to have the Godess Movement tied in with Belly Dance.
A historical aspect: In the late 1800's and early 1900's many things were popular in Great Brit. and America and got a bit mixed in with each other: Ruth St. Denis, spirtitism, Orientalism, Alister Crowley & his Golden Dawn bunch, the works of James George Frazer & Robert Graves, Magick & Stage Magic, ancient Egypt, Theosophy, etc. Modern Wicca was influenced by many of these things.
At the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, the first "belly dancers" were popularized in America. I think because American Belly Dance is descended from Orientalism of this time, a bit of these other ideas got mixed in because they were popular culture.
Later things got mixed again. The works of Joseph Campbell had an influence on the Mother Goddess movement of the late 1960's and early 70's. Some of these people were also discovering belly dance at the same time. San Francisco spawned Renaissance Fairs and the SCA, Marrion Zimmer Bradley and her influential book "Mists of Avalon", Feminism, Bal Anat and what eventually became ATS, Hippies, and neo-paganism. A lot of folks were active in several of these counter-culture groups. I think it's an American phenomena to have the Godess Movement tied in with Belly Dance.
Jane
New member
Jane
New member
Well, bleh on the Mists of Avalon, the bane of any Celtic historian!QUOTE]
People sometimes don't remember that it was a work of fiction, and not ever intended to be anything but. Marrion Zimmer Bradley also wrote SciFi and was one of the founding members of the SCA along with Diana Paxon. Both these ladies were also present in the Neo-Pagan community around Berkeley CA. The SCA started out as a fantasy/medieval/Tolkien club and only later changed the mission statement to historical. Some SCAdians, including many belly dancers, still have trouble separating real history from what "feels right". This is why there is such a strong ATS presence in the SCA, although I'm happy to say that's changing.
Does this help al all Brea, or is it just making things worse?
Andrea Deagon
New member
Brea -- I loved Mists of Avalon, then read her book on Cassandra, which is in my field (Classical Studies) and was offended not only by the inaccuracy but the sheer lack of any kind of sensitivity to the culture. Inaccuracy I can deal with, in fiction at least, but insensitivity narks me. Then it occurred to me that Celtic historians might feel the same way about Mists of Avalon. (On the other hand, I loved the Darkover books when I read them in my late teens/early 20's.)
My feeling about deity is that it forms itself according to the needs of the culture (like archetype) -- the fact that there was not any monolithic Great Goddess in the past doesn't mean that a Great Goddess is an invalid focus of spiritual energies in the present day. The fact that Wicca has a strong 19th century component doesn't mean it's not a valid form of polytheistic religion now.
It would be nice if people took what they do and believe sufficiently seriously not to need to project it into the past. As I intimated earlier, the reason some dancers/New Age types are so adamant about a Great Goddess in the past is that they don't believe in her power in the present day. If they're going to keep the Mother Goddess warm fuzzies alive, they have to project her into the past.
I also get peeved at times because people assume that you're a supporter of patriarchy if you don't believe in the Gimbutas-style matriarchy that's so prominent in belly dance pseudo-history. The reason I don't believe in it is that I'm a feminist to the core, and believing in a fictitious 19th century-style New Age matriarchy does nothing to further the cause of feminism (which I define as improving life for everyone by working towards gender equality and support of women's concerns).
Ranting and loving it --
Andrea
My feeling about deity is that it forms itself according to the needs of the culture (like archetype) -- the fact that there was not any monolithic Great Goddess in the past doesn't mean that a Great Goddess is an invalid focus of spiritual energies in the present day. The fact that Wicca has a strong 19th century component doesn't mean it's not a valid form of polytheistic religion now.
It would be nice if people took what they do and believe sufficiently seriously not to need to project it into the past. As I intimated earlier, the reason some dancers/New Age types are so adamant about a Great Goddess in the past is that they don't believe in her power in the present day. If they're going to keep the Mother Goddess warm fuzzies alive, they have to project her into the past.
I also get peeved at times because people assume that you're a supporter of patriarchy if you don't believe in the Gimbutas-style matriarchy that's so prominent in belly dance pseudo-history. The reason I don't believe in it is that I'm a feminist to the core, and believing in a fictitious 19th century-style New Age matriarchy does nothing to further the cause of feminism (which I define as improving life for everyone by working towards gender equality and support of women's concerns).
Ranting and loving it --
Andrea
Jane
New member
These are the same people that tell me I'm not a real belly dancer 'cause I don't wear a jewel in my tummy!
:lol:Really though, all you can do is refer them to an accurate book. If it's a friend maybe even buy it for them!
The SCA is getting better, slowly. You get all kinds in the SCA and there is a learning curve, especially for Braveheart fans and Belly Dancers. You should meet the Pirates! Ack! :shok:
We've got of ton of Jack Sparrow and Titus Pullo wannabees now. Folks join because something is popular, then either fade away or get with the program. Here's an article I wrote last year (needs an update!) for belly dancers who want to dance in the SCA. I'd appriciate your thoughts.http://www.florilegium.org/files/DANCE/Belly-Dance-art.html
sedoniaraqs
New member
Because it is their spiritual belief system. Their "religion", if you will. Believing this gives purpose to their lives. They don't want to contemplate a world without belly dancing goddesses. From it they derive inner personal strength, and only through it do they manage to muster ethical behavior and common empathy for their fellow human beings. Irrational? Lacking proof? In direct conflict with numerous lines of scientific evidence? Why, yes.
I also find irrational, unproven belief systems a source of endless curiosity.
sedoniaraqs
New member
Very profound, A'isha. A wisdom that, should one desire, be extrapolated way beyond dancing and pyramids.
lizaj
New member
You got it right. Folks need to make sense of their world and if the goddess theory is their bag, go for it boys and girls but like many I get fed up with the constant claims to ownership of bellydance made by the sisterhood.
For some of us it's got an awful lot to do with Egyptian, Turkish , Lebanese or ......Californian
culture and not a lot to do with the mists of time. I am sure women always got up and did a sexy hip/ belly based dance to either have fun, keep fit or drive the lads looney but I prefer to look at Cairo and San Fran's near past for the roots of my dancing.
Nat242
New member
In my humble opinion:
Did the dance originate with so called temple priestesses? No.
Do some people experience a connection to the divine when they dance? Yes. I suppose in that sense, some women have danced in this way as a personal spiritual ritual, perhaps to the Mother Goddess.
Brea, I think the reason why so many dancers cling to this idea of the Goddess-inspired belly dance tradition is because the sacred feminine has long been exiled from many popular religions. I think many women really feel the need to recapture that mythology, and find something powerful and sacred within themselves, and the Goddess-stuff may help them to do so.
I have no problem with people teaching belly dance as a spiritual exercise and as internal exploration, though the cultural and historical origins of the dance should not be ignored. It's just another fusion.
Did the dance originate with so called temple priestesses? No.
Do some people experience a connection to the divine when they dance? Yes. I suppose in that sense, some women have danced in this way as a personal spiritual ritual, perhaps to the Mother Goddess.
Brea, I think the reason why so many dancers cling to this idea of the Goddess-inspired belly dance tradition is because the sacred feminine has long been exiled from many popular religions. I think many women really feel the need to recapture that mythology, and find something powerful and sacred within themselves, and the Goddess-stuff may help them to do so.
I have no problem with people teaching belly dance as a spiritual exercise and as internal exploration, though the cultural and historical origins of the dance should not be ignored. It's just another fusion.
A'isha made a good point about this dance celebrating the human, and the ongoing seeming human urge to attribute great things or big things to space aliens, magic, or God, rather than to themselves.
Andrea made a good point about the urge to reconstruct the past.
I suspect that most people, most of the time, just can't hack the idea that we are responsible for who we are, our culture, institutions, and behavior, how we manage our resources, and all the rest. It's just too scary to contemplate that there might not be anyone out there watching over us. That there may not be any other purpose or meaning. So if the purpose and meaning isn't handed to us, we make it up or latch onto one that works for us.
I sometimes think there must be a "God gene" because religion and superstition are so prevalent. I tend to think it all stems back to our need to rely on the group. Religion seems to be one of the very best ways to motivate and steer the group.
To me, dance is a way of getting beyond the limits of the self. This is a good thing. It feels vital and maybe it's all the more vital for atheists such as myself. A temporary, maybe partial cure for subjectivity. A connection to something bigger than oneself. The music? The group? Connection to other dancers past, present and future? The Mother Goddess? It all depends on how one sees things, what one wants to call them.
Cathy
Andrea made a good point about the urge to reconstruct the past.
I suspect that most people, most of the time, just can't hack the idea that we are responsible for who we are, our culture, institutions, and behavior, how we manage our resources, and all the rest. It's just too scary to contemplate that there might not be anyone out there watching over us. That there may not be any other purpose or meaning. So if the purpose and meaning isn't handed to us, we make it up or latch onto one that works for us.
I sometimes think there must be a "God gene" because religion and superstition are so prevalent. I tend to think it all stems back to our need to rely on the group. Religion seems to be one of the very best ways to motivate and steer the group.
To me, dance is a way of getting beyond the limits of the self. This is a good thing. It feels vital and maybe it's all the more vital for atheists such as myself. A temporary, maybe partial cure for subjectivity. A connection to something bigger than oneself. The music? The group? Connection to other dancers past, present and future? The Mother Goddess? It all depends on how one sees things, what one wants to call them.
Cathy
adiemus
New member
Like others on this thread I feel comfortable with some women feeling that to dance is a part of connecting with something bigger than they - and if that 'bigger' thing is g*d, or goddess, or spirit, that's their belief.
The only aspect that bothers me is when history becomes myth and perpetuates a pseudo spiritual element that isn't supported by anything. This smacks of proselytising and in the face of lack of knowledge about the dance in the general community, can be mistaken as genuine 'fact' by the naive. As a result, some people could get put off and not take up the dance (I would have never danced if I thought it was all tied up with religion), while others could (and probably do) be attracted to dance for reasons of neediness and dependence. This is what founds a cult, and given some of the comments about instructors/teachers behaviour towards students (possessiveness and ownership) I think can be a real worry!
Honest dance enhances me just as it is without trappings of 'spirit' slapped on top of it. A 'sacred feminine' has as much going for it as the 'essential masculine' - both genders are fabulous, neither is ascendent, and neither is more special than the other!!
BTW I have a new signature - and thought of the irony of posting this post when I'm promulgating 'every woman is a treasure' - perhaps I should replace it with another saying
He aha te mea nui?
He tangata.
He tangata.
He tangata.
What is the most important thing? It is people, it is people, it is people.
The only aspect that bothers me is when history becomes myth and perpetuates a pseudo spiritual element that isn't supported by anything. This smacks of proselytising and in the face of lack of knowledge about the dance in the general community, can be mistaken as genuine 'fact' by the naive. As a result, some people could get put off and not take up the dance (I would have never danced if I thought it was all tied up with religion), while others could (and probably do) be attracted to dance for reasons of neediness and dependence. This is what founds a cult, and given some of the comments about instructors/teachers behaviour towards students (possessiveness and ownership) I think can be a real worry!
Honest dance enhances me just as it is without trappings of 'spirit' slapped on top of it. A 'sacred feminine' has as much going for it as the 'essential masculine' - both genders are fabulous, neither is ascendent, and neither is more special than the other!!
BTW I have a new signature - and thought of the irony of posting this post when I'm promulgating 'every woman is a treasure' - perhaps I should replace it with another saying
He aha te mea nui?
He tangata.
He tangata.
He tangata.
What is the most important thing? It is people, it is people, it is people.
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