Posture

Moon

New member
My teacher says the pelvis should be kind of relax, in the middle. So not tucked but also certainly not duck-butt.
For people who are used to standing with a duck-butt though, they could come out at the right posture when you say "tuck your pelvis", so I think you should just check whether the student is standing right or not. People on Bhuz might be saying a completely tucked butt is not right, while you might be talking about a little tucked, but not completely tucked.

Same for bend knees. I used to stand with locked knees so I stood right when my teacher said "bend your knees", while strictly spoken, they are not really bend, but just unlocked and relaxed.
 

Suheir

New member
It's sometimes called "neutral pelvis" which is slightly tucked and not obviously tilted to the back or front. Knees should be relaxed and not locked. Sometimes they can be more bent for Beladi.

I'm sure you're teaching the correct posture, Brea!
 

Moon

New member
Well Brea, sounds to me like you're teaching the right posture.
They probably say backbends are scary because they are dangerous to do without proper technique :think:
 

Salome

Administrator
Did she/he give some kind of context as to why she/he thinks it is incorrect?

Generally I would say that feet under hips, soft knee, gently tucked pelvis, good overall upper body carriage, i.e. relaxed shoulders, rib cage not sunken... is the posture I use and teach as a spring board for a dynamic activity...
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
Its mostly semantics. One person's "tuck" is another person's "relaxed" is another person's "neutral". It *is* possible to tuck too much. What is important is what you actually have the students do, not what you call it.

RE: legs bent. I teach that the default alignment if you will is to have the legs as straight as possible without being hyperextended (locked). Of course the knees bend from this homebase to allow various hip movements. I check my students individually very carefully for locked knees to remind them not to do it. Also, part of this default alignment is having the body weight distributed to both the heels and balls of the feet, and the ribcage aligns slightly forward of the pelvis. This is for the most part really just good posture, as you would see on a poster in a chiropracter's or orothopedic's office.

I teach mostly from the perspective of the Egyptian style. To me, having a more bent position, especially combined with a bit of leaning back and the weight back over the heels, is very NOT Egyptian for most movements. I see alot of American dancers do this and I don't really like it.
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
Hi,

I teach "not duck butt but not pelvic thrust", ie, a neutral pelvis instead of sticking out your butt.

Yes, except that the benchmark of correct posture generally has little to do with how far out your butt sticks, because that is due largely to muscle and fat. Also, people have different degrees of lumbar curve, which is separate from pelvic tilt.

So there can be people with a very deep lumbar curve, large glute muscles, and junk in the trunk whose booties stick way out but whose pelvis is perfectly neutral.

I think a better benchmark is feeling the most prominent points of the iliac crests and the pubic bone on the front of the body. These points should define a triangle oriented perpendicular to the floor. This is a more accurate way of assessing "neutral" pelvis than looking at the lower back or how far one's butt sticks out.
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
Funny that the ad I'm seeing at the bottom of this page is for a "posture correcting" device. It looks like a cut-under-the-bust costume vest made of white ace bandages. I wonder how it would look sequined and with bedlah?
 

adiemus

New member
Funny that the ad I'm seeing at the bottom of this page is for a "posture correcting" device. It looks like a cut-under-the-bust costume vest made of white ace bandages. I wonder how it would look sequined and with bedlah?

:lol::lol::lol:

You are quite right that lordosis can affect whether the pelvis looks tucked or not...and the pubic bone and iliac crest alignment are much more accurate - but it's amazing how few people know how to work it out!!
I do have quite a deep lordosis, and shortened quads and hip flexors, so I have it bad from both sides! I do call it a 'neutral' pelvis, but I quite like the way that some people describe it as having an elongated spine - that way the emphasis is on both pulling up and out of the torso as well as ensuring the pelvis and lumbar spine are in a neutral position.

You can also check this by how much pelvic tilt the person can do while lying down or while standing against a wall (although both will be influenced by the muscle/fat on the butt). But at least it's a little easier to get the movement and it's possible to feel the iliac crest/pubic bone alignment.

Re the knees - 'soft' knees works well for me, rather than 'bent'.
And yes, back bends can be difficult because they require not only extremely strong abdominals, but strength in both sets of muscles in the thigh - quads and hammies. And if you've got any osteoarthritis in your lumbar spine, this is a great way to find out about it!! Because the facet joints move against each other as you extend, and this can trigger irritation from any osteophytes or slight irregularities in the joint surfaces.
 

KuteNurse

New member
Did she/he give some kind of context as to why she/he thinks it is incorrect?

Generally I would say that feet under hips, soft knee, gently tucked pelvis, good overall upper body carriage, i.e. relaxed shoulders, rib cage not sunken... is the posture I use and teach as a spring board for a dynamic activity...


That is exactly what I have been taught. Pelvis tucked slightly...chest raised up, shoulder's back slightly and relaxed. Knees soft...slightly bent. You are teaching correctly Brea.
 

Suheir

New member
Hmm. This is from a skating website: "All skaters should try to achieve good posture and stance, but what is it and how should you try to achieve it. We often talk about 'poor' or 'good style'; this often also refers to what we call good posture.

The first thing to be aware of is that your back line is strong and upright but not stiff. This often is achieved not by thinking about your back but by concentrating on your stomach strength. You should stand straight and tall, then tighten you buttocks and slightly lift your pelvis, while pulling your navel into your spine. This creates what I call 'core strength' and allows you to maintain your centre, while still being able to move, lean or rotate. You should also ensure that your shoulders are relaxed and rotated down in their sockets, so that you can feel the muscles of your back pulling the shoulder blades down towards the centre of the back, the head should held erect and with the greatest possible space between the ear and the shoulder"

And: The pointe of good posture - Telegraph

I'd say they were both advocating "neutral" pelvis.
 

Aniseteph

New member
:shok:
I read that Bhuz thread - what's with flat foot mayas being evil! And whatever that tick-tock hips thing is? (?Soheir Zaki down hips? - we call them chonks which is so inelegant I can barely bring myself to write it..).

We've been learning a dance that has a section of just those moves - OMG am I trashing my spine here? Nothing hurts. The down hips move with a neutral pelvis on me doesn't seem to do much to my spine at all, it stays pointing straight down. I think if my pelvis is at all tilted back it turns into a bit of a tail wag which does feel like it might mess with the lower spine, same for mayas.

Aargh, flippin' internet-induced paranoia. :mad:
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
:shok:
I read that Bhuz thread - what's with flat foot mayas being evil! And whatever that tick-tock hips thing is? (?Soheir Zaki down hips? - we call them chonks which is so inelegant I can barely bring myself to write it..).

We've been learning a dance that has a section of just those moves - OMG am I trashing my spine here? Nothing hurts. The down hips move with a neutral pelvis on me doesn't seem to do much to my spine at all, it stays pointing straight down. I think if my pelvis is at all tilted back it turns into a bit of a tail wag which does feel like it might mess with the lower spine, same for mayas.

Aargh, flippin' internet-induced paranoia. :mad:

The original person these comments were attributed to is Hadia, a dancer who is quite knowledgeable about biokinetics and the human body. Please keep in mind that we are hearing her thoughts on these matters third hand, and we don't know exactly what she said, or exactly what movements she was referring to. If you read carefully, you will see that Hadia was apparently demonstrating different techniques for producing these movements that are better than some other ways people do them.

I have not had classes with her, so I can't say whether my "down hip" technique is what she would label the "good" way or the "bad" way.

Also keep in mind that no one has the body awareness to feel with perfect accuracy what is "bad" for our bodies vs. "good". There are, in fact, movements, exercises, and stretches that do not necessarily produce pain, but that are known (through research) to produce slow, progressive damage to ligaments, tendons, and joints over time (apparently many ballet stretches done at the bar are included in this category, yet the ballet community is resistant to changing their pedagogy).

Yes, dance puts wear and tear on our bodies. But, if there are ways of doing what we want to do that reduce or mitigate wear and tear on our bodies, shouldn't we be open to learning about this?
 

Aniseteph

New member
Yes, dance puts wear and tear on our bodies. But, if there are ways of doing what we want to do that reduce or mitigate wear and tear on our bodies, shouldn't we be open to learning about this?

Oh yes, I agree. As someone who has often felt that a hipscarf-clad full-size model skeleton in the class would be a great help in demonstrating what should move and how, and why posture is so important, I am right on-side on this one.

I wasn't criticising (especially as it is all at least second hand info), I just think I had the same "eek am I doing it all wrong?" moment as Brea.
 

sedoniaraqs

New member
To me, this is quintessential oriental dance posture:


Quite a few of my early teachers taught something that I think came from west coast tribal. Instead of standing tall with the upper body leading most movement, the teachers looked more like they were leaning back on their heels with the knees visibly bent like they are about to sit on a stool. I think this is what Hadia was criticizing.

For example the photo below shows a "before" and "after/corrected" posture. I would say the "after/corrected" is too bent at the knee, and notice how the dancer is leaning back. Probably all her weight is on her heels, and her rib cage is not slightly forward of the pelvis. Perhaps this is considered "ideal" for tribal belly dance (?) or vintage oriental/ am-cab whatever you want to call it, but it is most certainly not ideal for Egyptian dance. This would have Yousri sharif or Shareen el Safy whacking your butt with a paddle (figuratively speaking) and telling you to stand up straight.
Posture Before and After - tribe.net
 

adiemus

New member
"There are, in fact, movements, exercises, and stretches that do not necessarily produce pain, but that are known (through research) to produce slow, progressive damage to ligaments, tendons, and joints over time"
ummm.... sorry but I really have to jump in - joint degeneration particularly in the spine occurs more as a result of genetics than physical demands. If you have the genetics for degeneration, and carry out physical activity you will notice it more than if you are sedentary, if you don't have the genetics and do activities you will be unlikely to develop problems unless you have a major joint disruption which occurs mainly as a result of forceful trauma. The notion that we can develop unnoticed deterioration of our bodies is a fallacy, unless you think grey hair and wrinkles are 'damage'!
For references: Sutton, AJ et al. (2001) A case controlled study between low and moderate levels of physical activity and osteoarthritis of the knee. Annals of Rheumatic Diseases (60), 756-764
This study demonstrated that there was no relationship between physical activity (comparable with bellydance) and knee OA.
Cymet TC. Sinkov V. Does long-distance running cause osteoarthritis?. [Review] [32 refs] [Journal Article. Review] Journal of the American Osteopathic Association. 106(6):342-5, 2006 Jun.
This study found that although radiological changes are found in long distance runners, report of pain does not increase and running may provide joint protection.
alichman L. Hunter DJ. Lumbar facet joint osteoarthritis: a review. [Review] [131 refs] [Journal Article. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't. Review] Seminars in Arthritis & Rheumatism. 37(2):69-80, 2007 Oct.
This study found that increased age, osteoarthritis in the body generally, and congenital (born with) changes to the facet joint orientation were predictive of facet joint OA, but not related to exercise level.
acobsen S. Sonne-Holm S. Rovsing H. Monrad H. Gebuhr P. Degenerative lumbar spondylolisthesis: an epidemiological perspective: the Copenhagen Osteoarthritis Study. [Comparative Study. Journal Article. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't] Spine. 32(1):120-5, 2007 Jan 1.
BMI longitudinally and at index evaluations, age, and angle of lordosis were significantly associated with degenerative spondylolisthesis in women. In men, no individual risk factors for degenerative spondylolisthesis were found, save increased age.

I could go on, but there are so many it gets a bit hard to cut and paste them all.

But if you are interested, this article is written specifically about performing artists: Hansen PA. Reed K. Common musculoskeletal problems in the performing artist. [Review] [27 refs] [Journal Article. Review] Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation Clinics of North America. 17(4):789-801, 2006 Nov.

The upshot is, activity and movement are healthy, acute pain is a good sign to stop and think about what you're doing, but not always an indication of injury, you can blame your parents for your osteoarthritis (and your age!), and unless you and your body encounter a hard surface with significant impact as in trauma, you'll probably be fine.

'Good' posture is the starting point for movement - so 'good' posture is one that is dynamic, able to change depending on the movement requirements, is flexible, is biomechanically efficient, and for which you are fit enough to maintain. For our dance type, soft knees, neutral pelvis, elongated spine, rib cage in neutral and normal, balanced spinal curves seems to be the most efficient.
 
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