Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15
  1. #1
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,792
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default stretching and instructional DVD's

    **I just need to rant for a moment**Why oh why do instructional DVD's have stretching segments BUT NO WARM-UP! Don't they know that you need to do cardio warm-up before you do stretching? Please, if you're going to do a warm-up before you dance, you need to do some cardio exercise to get your muscles warmed and your heart rate going before you stretch, or you are doing no good at all. Also you need to do stretches at the END of your practice to reduce the risk of sore muscles, stretches before you dance don't prevent injury or pain, they just increase flexibility and range of movement.
    **end of rant, resume normal transmission**
    Attachment 1437
    Last edited by adiemus; 05-13-2008 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #2
    V.I.P. Kashmir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,952
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Because that's the way their teacher's teacher did it and no-one has bothered to keep up with good teaching practice/safe dance?

    Because many pro-dancers who put out teaching DVDs are often naturally flexible and it isn't an issue for them?

  3. #3
    V.I.P. Yasmine Bint Al Nubia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Akron, Ohio
    Posts
    1,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, in several of the DVD's I own, many of the instructors encourage the student to perform a full warm-up before practicing the dance.
    But you know what, I don't believe that one needs a full cardio exercise prior to stretch. Your muscles are already warm, unless you've stepped out of a freezer! The natural body temp is anywhere between 98-99. Cardio, will raise the temperature(and heart rate and oxygen demand) even more. So just how warm do you need to be? I know this is the newest trend out there, but so far i've gotten by without it and I'm injury free.

    For me dance is the cardio portion! What I will do, is a few rounds of Sun Salutations. These stretches, gently increase my flexibility, breath control so I feel energized to dance...not tired. Oh well....
    Yasmine

  4. #4
    V.I.P. Jane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the mountains of Montana
    Posts
    2,220
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Ten minutes of light exercise of the major muscles or the muscles you plan to use should do it. The actual body temp needs to be raised a degree or two. Warming the muscles makes the fibers more elastic. Stretching cold muscles will only tear the fibers. Stretch after the warm up. Hold stretches for 10 sec to 1 min. and don't bounce.

    I've been studying for my NETA exam this weekend; think good thoughts for me! I read this stuff and all I can do is relate it to belly dance. Very distracting. The physiology section is kicking my butt! So many acronyms, so little space in my brain...

  5. #5
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,792
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Jane, you've got it!!
    The body does need to be a little warmer than normal, the heart rate just a bit faster - then and only then can the muscles stretch!

    It's not a 'full cardio', it's like when you go to the gym, you do 5 mins on the cycle before you start your exercise. Kashmir does great warmup - a track or two of something bright and breezy and some quick gallops (well, perhaps the grapevine step isn't exactly a gallop!) then doing a light stretch...then the class.

    I think you can dance without stretching and still not risk injury provided that you are not intending to dance and extend beyond your normal ROM, but if you're wanting to increase range of movement which most of us do in normal practice and especially during classes, you need to stretch and you can't do this on cold muscles.

    The 'warmups' on most DVD's are stretches - not CV warmups, and I haven't yet seen one that says to do CV warmup before doing the stretch.

    and yes I was brought up on ballet and doing plie's and all that before beginning to dance!

    The risk is that when we stretch first, the intention is to increase ROM but the reality is that it's merely window-dressing, and does risk injury especially if the stretches move beyond the normal ROM. Stretches before exercise do little to prevent muscle aches and pains, while there is support for stretching AFTER exercise to reduce muscle aches and pains.

    Is it just that lots of dancers have danced since they were little and have never ever needed to stretch because they have developed flexibility since they were tiny? Or is it that there is a long history of teachers learning from other teachers who have never been to sports/fitness/physiology training?

    Sorry, just getting really annoyed at this today!!!!!

  6. #6
    V.I.P. Yasmine Bint Al Nubia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Akron, Ohio
    Posts
    1,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adiemus View Post
    Jane, you've got it!!
    The body does need to be a little warmer than normal, the heart rate just a bit faster - then and only then can the muscles stretch!

    It's not a 'full cardio', it's like when you go to the gym, you do 5 mins on the cycle before you start your exercise. Kashmir does great warmup - a track or two of something bright and breezy and some quick gallops (well, perhaps the grapevine step isn't exactly a gallop!) then doing a light stretch...then the class.

    I think you can dance without stretching and still not risk injury provided that you are not intending to dance and extend beyond your normal ROM, but if you're wanting to increase range of movement which most of us do in normal practice and especially during classes, you need to stretch and you can't do this on cold muscles.

    The 'warmups' on most DVD's are stretches - not CV warmups, and I haven't yet seen one that says to do CV warmup before doing the stretch.

    and yes I was brought up on ballet and doing plie's and all that before beginning to dance!

    The risk is that when we stretch first, the intention is to increase ROM but the reality is that it's merely window-dressing, and does risk injury especially if the stretches move beyond the normal ROM. Stretches before exercise do little to prevent muscle aches and pains, while there is support for stretching AFTER exercise to reduce muscle aches and pains.

    Is it just that lots of dancers have danced since they were little and have never ever needed to stretch because they have developed flexibility since they were tiny? Or is it that there is a long history of teachers learning from other teachers who have never been to sports/fitness/physiology training?

    Sorry, just getting really annoyed at this today!!!!!
    There are a lot of teachers who know very little about physiology. Muscles are not 'cold'. This is a common description that is incorrect. The tendons,fascia and ligaments that attach the muscle to the bone, is what provides the flexibility. Muscles provide strength and support for the skeleton. Muscles also store the mitochondrial energy reserves used in activity. The skeleton is the frame and provides protection to internal organs. When each is worked in tandem, in a synergistic pattern, then ALL parts of the body become flexible with the decrease in injury. Moving beyond one's natural ROM, is the culprit of many dance injuires, this can often happen during the warm-up too.The body becomes warm with activity, as the heart pumps more blood to these areas. Breath control is also a vital element as it delivers oxygen and carries away toxins and CO2.
    So it's not whether one stretches, but how EFFECTIVE is the stretch/warm-up. I can spend 10 minutes with yoga, or Pilates or even walking and feel prepared for the high energy demands of dance.
    Yasmine

  7. #7
    V.I.P. adiemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,792
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    From the research I've been reading (relevant to sports and also pain management), the 'cold' muscles people talk about is about the level that you and I are in when we walk around the house. If we go dance vigorously without getting the heart rate up we're quite likely to 'strain' something.
    If we're intending to extend our ROM - yes it's the tendons, ligaments and other connective tissues that do the majority of the lengthening, but it's also the slight breakdown of the muscle tissue that occurs that builds muscle fibre and strength. To have good ROM we need both length and strength in the muscle unit (for want of writing the whole phrase out!). And if we try to do this without increasing the heart rate and consequent oxygenated blood flow, then we do risk strain. Pilates and yoga and other stretching regimes work best if your CV level is a little raised.
    On another level, doing a bit of whole body jigging about also increases neural connections from brain to body to improve coordination before you start dancing...
    I could list a whole lot of literature, but I'm not feeling particularly academic tonight. What I wanted to rant about was the DVD's that go straight into long ROM stretches without a murmer about needing to jog about a bit and get the big muscles active.

    ah well, here's a couple of articles for the keen...

    Warm-Up and Stretching in the Prevention of Muscular Injury
    Authors: Woods, Krista1; Bishop, Phillip1; Jones, Eric1
    Sports Medicine, Volume 37, Number 12, 2007 , pp. 1089-1099(11)

    This is a link: stretching exercises | stretching injuries | stretching warm up

    Basically the evidence does not support stretching before exercise as a way to prevent injury in runners or dancers, but it does have some evidence to support it after exercise. Instead, it's suggested you do some basic CV warmup, do a bit of loose stretching to improve coordination and 'connection' - then go dance! Cool down properly with a good stretch and you'll be fine.
    Last edited by adiemus; 05-15-2008 at 05:33 AM.

  8. #8
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South West England
    Posts
    1,915
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Interesting, the need to warm up. i don't dance yet, so maybe I will need to learn this, but other exercises I do for example hill walking, cycling and yoga, I do not warm up for, I just start slowly and increase the pace as I go. Perhaps a slow pace is my version of warming up, but the walking and cycling are not such pastimes, but a means to get to places as transport. The yoga, well, it's stretching.

    I have never experienced muscle problems from not warming up. I have for pushing myself too hard, but that only lasts no more than a day.

    What do ME dancers in the originating countries do, warm up, or just go for it ?

  9. #9
    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Pacific Northwest USA
    Posts
    5,313
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Stretches, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yasmine Bint Al Nubia View Post
    Well, in several of the DVD's I own, many of the instructors encourage the student to perform a full warm-up before practicing the dance.
    But you know what, I don't believe that one needs a full cardio exercise prior to stretch. Your muscles are already warm, unless you've stepped out of a freezer! The natural body temp is anywhere between 98-99. Cardio, will raise the temperature(and heart rate and oxygen demand) even more. So just how warm do you need to be? I know this is the newest trend out there, but so far i've gotten by without it and I'm injury free.

    For me dance is the cardio portion! What I will do, is a few rounds of Sun Salutations. These stretches, gently increase my flexibility, breath control so I feel energized to dance...not tired. Oh well....
    Yasmine


    Dear Yasmine,
    Do you know Shakira of Ohio? She attended both medical school and some other type of discipline to learn all about it and she rather agrees with you about this issue, except for the dance being cardio, which I also do not think it is because of the starts, stops, etc in the process of performing the dance. ( I have cardiac issues and have learned to walk for cardio stuff.) Anyway, Shakira warms up with belly dance movement and nothing more, for a quite short period of time. My theory on stretching has been roundly denounced, but I feel that when animals are getting ready to do any action after a rest period, they do what? STRETCH!!! It appears to be a natural body response to getting ready to work physically.
    Except for arthritis in my right iliac joint and the place where my heel and the rest of my foot connects, I am also injury free, but Shakira claims my warm-up stretches are "not really stretches". I was never quite sure why not, but next time I see her, I will ask her to elaborate. She has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
    When I teach now, I suggest to students in workshops and in my continuing classes that they do what feels right for them rather than stress anyone out by asking them to follow my warm-up.
    Regards,
    A'isha

  10. #10
    V.I.P. Yasmine Bint Al Nubia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Akron, Ohio
    Posts
    1,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by A'isha Azar View Post
    Dear Yasmine,
    Do you know Shakira of Ohio? She attended both medical school and some other type of discipline to learn all about it and she rather agrees with you about this issue, except for the dance being cardio, which I also do not think it is because of the starts, stops, etc in the process of performing the dance. ( I have cardiac issues and have learned to walk for cardio stuff.) Anyway, Shakira warms up with belly dance movement and nothing more, for a quite short period of time. My theory on stretching has been roundly denounced, but I feel that when animals are getting ready to do any action after a rest period, they do what? STRETCH!!! It appears to be a natural body response to getting ready to work physically.
    Except for arthritis in my right iliac joint and the place where my heel and the rest of my foot connects, I am also injury free, but Shakira claims my warm-up stretches are "not really stretches". I was never quite sure why not, but next time I see her, I will ask her to elaborate. She has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
    When I teach now, I suggest to students in workshops and in my continuing classes that they do what feels right for them rather than stress anyone out by asking them to follow my warm-up.
    Regards,
    A'isha
    Hi Aisha, I do know Shakira of Columbus. In fact she has been a guest instructor at our school on several occasions! Yes she also is certified in Feldenkrais Method and Alexander Technique, both of which are theories relating to safe and effective movement. Speaking specifically about Shakira, she is one of a handful of teachers that really understand how and where movement originates. In terms of dance, she brings a wholistic awareness of what's happening in the body.

    My take on all this: The terms 'warm-up' 'cold muscle' have different meanings for wide variety of people. The lay person and this includes many dancers, have a poor understanding of the body's physiology, and yet they bandy about these terms with an air of authority. Even if one bought an anatomy poster, it would be difficult to understand how the muscle works(much less pronounce it) in relation to movement. So if one doesn't have a working knowledge of anatomy and physiology, then stop trying to use terms you don't understand. It's not really necessary to teach bellydance anyway!

    In terms of cardio,(vascular exercise)- it's not what you are doing but what is happening to your heart as you increase its work to 60-85% above it's resting state. In other words, your heart has to reach a maximum effort for it to be defined as cardio workout. Now how many of us stop and check our heart rates during dance class? Cardio can be further defined as low intensity and high intensity. Dance fits into the low intensity category. Other types of exercise can range from low impact to high impact: walking, swimmimg, biking, hey even sex! As long as the heart rate increases, rich oxygenated blood will circulate faster to the body...thus warming it to higher internal temperature. Moving the muscle doesn't make it warm, moving the heart makes the entire body warmer!

    Stretches: before or after...whatever. Depends on what you are doing. Micro tears occur everyday within the muscle fiber. In fact they go unnoticed. Large muscle group tears occur because someone wasn't using common sense. In relation to belly dance, the risk of large muscle tears are miniscule. If one is sore after dance or a workout, it's not because the of muscle tears. Complex chemical changes takes place within the muscle during intense muscle use. This acidic envionment is the cause of muscle soreness.
    And I agree about how animals stretch after resting. Try this experiment: once you get off the computer, stand up straight and reach youir arms toward the ceiling. include your torso. feel this whole body stretch. Ok when you relax, you should feel you heart begin to beat a little faster and you'll take in a deeper breath. Now doesn't that feel better
    Yasmine
    Last edited by Yasmine Bint Al Nubia; 05-23-2008 at 05:16 PM. Reason: typos

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •