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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane View Post
    I think there are a lot of gray areas. In my current opinion:

    Craft- The basic technical ability to make a product.

    Art- The ability to communicate the artist’s emotions through an abstract or symbolic medium to another person.

    The Arts- The abstract or symbolic mediums by which the artist communicates their emotions to another.

    Entertainment- The use of The Arts without the emotional content, usually for monetary gain.
    Hhhmmm what about "practicing my craft" as in witchcraft? What is the product?

    Art--Tempting to agree but there are many works of art--Islamic painting and mosaics spring to mind, or Oriental rugs--that are so symbolic or abstract that I don't think anyone could identify the emotion the artist intended to convey, if any?

    Entertainment--what would you say that traditional peoples are doing when they sing and dance together at harvest days, etc. if not entertaining themselves--and in these cases it's not for monetary gain. Or student dance shows, for that matter. The audience might not find them entertaining (or gleep--possibly entertaining in all the unintended ways!) but the students receive no monetary gain......

    Cathy

  2. #52
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathy View Post
    Hhhmmm what about "practicing my craft" as in witchcraft? What is the product?

    Art--Tempting to agree but there are many works of art--Islamic painting and mosaics spring to mind, or Oriental rugs--that are so symbolic or abstract that I don't think anyone could identify the emotion the artist intended to convey, if any?

    Entertainment--what would you say that traditional peoples are doing when they sing and dance together at harvest days, etc. if not entertaining themselves--and in these cases it's not for monetary gain. Or student dance shows, for that matter. The audience might not find them entertaining (or gleep--possibly entertaining in all the unintended ways!) but the students receive no monetary gain......

    Cathy
    And now the grey areas have become clouds!

    So true.. you have a great mind Cathy.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathy View Post
    Hhhmmm what about "practicing my craft" as in witchcraft? What is the product?

    Art--Tempting to agree but there are many works of art--Islamic painting and mosaics spring to mind, or Oriental rugs--that are so symbolic or abstract that I don't think anyone could identify the emotion the artist intended to convey, if any?

    Entertainment--what would you say that traditional peoples are doing when they sing and dance together at harvest days, etc. if not entertaining themselves--and in these cases it's not for monetary gain. Or student dance shows, for that matter. The audience might not find them entertaining (or gleep--possibly entertaining in all the unintended ways!) but the students receive no monetary gain......

    Cathy
    I would think that craft also refers to intangible crafts/techniques.... such as dance/witchcraft/singing/public speaking... as well as woodworking etc...
    think the word "technique" (& the mastery of that in whatever field) would be a key word in the craft definition..
    oooh & in witchcraft... would not the "product" be the intended outcome of such practice???

    art: I think most people would put oriental rugs under the craft category (potentially not me though.... I even think (some) dishes (is this you Gisela??) as "art"... I love the idea of form meets function. or art in everyday objects*... & the sublime in everyday activities... but I live in paradise... & I think that was a different thread!) & as far as mosaics... how is that different from say 'painting' as an art form? I have seen some incredible mosaics..

    *oh & I sooo hate that some people want to separate out the "every day" in art... & put it on some pedestal as separate from everyday-ness though I also acknowledge that art IS supposed to separate (or elevate if you will) one FROM everyday life... which to me is WHY it needs to occur there...
    if that makes sense....

    entertainment: as far as "harvest days" etc... to me the word "entertainment" includes an "entertainer" and an "audience".... I am thinking that in most celebratory type events... there is not an audience (w/ the exception of the very infirm who cannot actually participate)... sort of like going out dancing at a club... you are PARTICIPATING not ENTERTAINING...
    as far as "student nights" well... ya gotta start somewhere...& if your goal is to become a "professional" (as in "paid") entertainer... part of your schooling would/should include "practice" entertaining... don't you think???...
    I am sure the student chef will make hundreds of "free" meals before becoming professional... i know that massage students are required to do HOURS of (usually free) massage before earning their certificate... etc...

    ladies... thank you for fascinating discussion.. making me think..etc.... but must go do some work!!!

  4. #54
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belly_dancer View Post
    I would think that craft also refers to intangible crafts/techniques.... such as dance/witchcraft/singing/public speaking... as well as woodworking etc...
    think the word "technique" (& the mastery of that in whatever field) would be a key word in the craft definition..
    oooh & in witchcraft... would not the "product" be the intended outcome of such practice???

    art: I think most people would put oriental rugs under the craft category (potentially not me though.... I even think (some) dishes (is this you Gisela??) as "art"... I love the idea of form meets function. or art in everyday objects*... & the sublime in everyday activities... but I live in paradise... & I think that was a different thread!) & as far as mosaics... how is that different from say 'painting' as an art form? I have seen some incredible mosaics..

    *oh & I sooo hate that some people want to separate out the "every day" in art... & put it on some pedestal as separate from everyday-ness though I also acknowledge that art IS supposed to separate (or elevate if you will) one FROM everyday life... which to me is WHY it needs to occur there...
    if that makes sense....

    entertainment: as far as "harvest days" etc... to me the word "entertainment" includes an "entertainer" and an "audience".... I am thinking that in most celebratory type events... there is not an audience (w/ the exception of the very infirm who cannot actually participate)... sort of like going out dancing at a club... you are PARTICIPATING not ENTERTAINING...
    as far as "student nights" well... ya gotta start somewhere...& if your goal is to become a "professional" (as in "paid") entertainer... part of your schooling would/should include "practice" entertaining... don't you think???...
    I am sure the student chef will make hundreds of "free" meals before becoming professional... i know that massage students are required to do HOURS of (usually free) massage before earning their certificate... etc...

    ladies... thank you for fascinating discussion.. making me think..etc.... but must go do some work!!!
    When you have finished work, could you turn that into a RAP for me??

  5. #55
    V.I.P. Jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathy View Post
    Hhhmmm what about "practicing my craft" as in witchcraft? What is the product?Cathy
    Worship or outcome of a spell could be a product.

    Quote Originally Posted by cathy View Post
    Art--Tempting to agree but there are many works of art--Islamic painting and mosaics spring to mind, or Oriental rugs--that are so symbolic or abstract that I don't think anyone could identify the emotion the artist intended to convey, if any?Cathy
    Historians know the pourpose behind Islamic painting and mosaics. Some were created to show the majesty of the patron, record a special event, praise God, or put people into a religious mindset. Some Oriental rugs can be elevated from a craft to art, by the emotional content i.e. prayer rugs. The people of that culture would most likely be able to see the emotion, which may not be apparent to outsiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by cathy View Post
    Entertainment--what would you say that traditional peoples are doing when they sing and dance together at harvest days, etc. if not entertaining themselves--and in these cases it's not for monetary gain. Or student dance shows, for that matter. The audience might not find them entertaining (or gleep--possibly entertaining in all the unintended ways!) but the students receive no monetary gain......Cathy
    They would be entertaining themselves and any onlookers. I used the term "usually" for a reason. Belly Dance students dance in recitals to entertain themselves, their audience, even when it's informal, and possibly to prepare for entertaining at a professional level for pay.

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