Dancing without knees

jenc

New member
Can anyone give me advice on dancing that will save my knees. Ok this week I have been on my feet 10 hours a day looking after kids at half term, but after dancing last night my right knee is swollen. I assume that I should be doing bent knee shimmy, but I also think hip twists stress my knees!!
 

Tezirah

New member
Hi Jenc,

Hip twists shouldn't be stressing your knees. Its very important to make sure your knees remain in line with your hips - its when you try and keep them still while moving your hip you get problems. Make sure your weight is back on your heels a little, keep your knees a little bent, and allow the knees to move with the hips (they will turn inwards as the hips come forward). Shimmies are done so many different ways its impossible to say what way is right - for me they come more from the hips and the heels, too much knee action may give more movement but could be storing up 'wear and tear' problems for later on.
 

Mara2

New member
Can anyone give me advice on dancing that will save my knees. Ok this week I have been on my feet 10 hours a day looking after kids at half term, but after dancing last night my right knee is swollen. I assume that I should be doing bent knee shimmy, but I also think hip twists stress my knees!!

Hello Jenc!

Make sure you always keep your knees slightly bent, and shift your weight from foot to foot. Most dancers aren't taught proper way (in my opinion), so they end up hurting their knees, hips, etc. Your basic stance should be feet straight ahead, about hip-width apart, then pretend like you're going to sit down. The weight should mainly be borne in your thigh muscles, not your knees.

Also, this twist is a new move to me. I was taught to use my feet to move my hips. To do this, kick your foot (we'll start with the right for the sake of explanation) like you are kicking a soccer ball. The instep of the foot should be facing forward, and foot is lifted very slightly off the ground (about an inch or so). DO NOT move that foot ahead of the other foot, but keep the heel parallel with the instep of the left foot. This will naturally push the right hip back. Now, gradually shift your weight to the right foot while pushing the right hip forward, then the left hip forward. Now, kick the left foot like you're kicking a soccer ball. Repeat to shimmy. It's not easy to perfect, but it's the way I was taught to do, and it's never hurt my knees.

Also, do not use your knee until it heals. You may have injured the miniscus. Keep it elevated, with ice. Hope this helps.

Warmest Regards,

Tegan
 

Aniseteph

New member
Hi Jenc - I can relate to that.

One of my knees protests if I do anything that twists my leg at the top while the lower part is fixed eg. by having the foot flat on the floor with weight on it. I mostly catch it just moving about in everyday life - but for dancing I am very aware of trying to do what Tezirah just said and keep knees in line with the hips.

If you have a knee problem PLEEEASE look after yourself and let it rest. A month or so back I didn't let my grumbling knee rest when I should have, and got 2 weeks confined to the sofa and another 2 hobbling to show for it. :mad:
 

jenc

New member
I have been dancing for almost 2 years - but it's only recently become a problem. I injured the knee 30 years ago. If I get out of condition, the damn thing will dislocate so it's already basically knackered.
I don't normally use my knees to twist until I saw on a dvd that it's apparently difficult to keep level unless you clench your glute at same time and THAT really hurt my knee, so I went back to my old way. I am a child of the 60s after all!!
I think it could be that my current teacher's "warm-up" is actually a fairly complicated bit of follow the dancing but. (She's Egyptian) I will have to fit in a personal warmup between leaving work and driving 18 miles for class.
 

Kharis

New member
I have been dancing for almost 2 years - but it's only recently become a problem. I injured the knee 30 years ago. If I get out of condition, the damn thing will dislocate so it's already basically knackered.
I don't normally use my knees to twist until I saw on a dvd that it's apparently difficult to keep level unless you clench your glute at same time and THAT really hurt my knee, so I went back to my old way. I am a child of the 60s after all!!
I think it could be that my current teacher's "warm-up" is actually a fairly complicated bit of follow the dancing but. (She's Egyptian) I will have to fit in a personal warmup between leaving work and driving 18 miles for class.

If a move gives you problems don't do it, simple as that. I used to have problems with my left knee...then I gave up smoking...and the knee has been fine ever since. Seems like you've got an old injury. Another good remedy for knee injury is Reiki. I'd recommend it.
 

jenc

New member
Have got my knees strapped up after trying African dance workshop at folk festival, ie with no warm up. I was showing off trying to do fantastic hip circles and squatting too much.

I am wondering how should I shimmy to save my knees?
 

Kashmir

New member
I have been dancing for almost 2 years - but it's only recently become a problem. I injured the knee 30 years ago. If I get out of condition, the damn thing will dislocate so it's already basically knackered.
I don't normally use my knees to twist until I saw on a dvd that it's apparently difficult to keep level unless you clench your glute at same time and THAT really hurt my knee, so I went back to my old way. I am a child of the 60s after all!!
Just because it is on a DVD doesn't make it right - or safe!!

When I do a hip twist my knees stay over the middle of my feet and my glutes are fairly relaxed. The work is done with the lateral flexors - such as the obliques - and it is level.

With the "bent knee" shimmy, again the work is done with the lateral flexors with little tension on the knees.

One thing you can do to help your knees is to build up your quads. A simple exercise is to sit on the floor with you legs out straight and press your knees into the floor a few times; then lift one leg at a time (to keep the stress off your back); then lift with resistance on the inside and outside of the leg/foot (such as with a band)
 

adiemus

New member
First of all, if you've got swelling you've got inflammation - this means it's important to use 'RICE' initially - rest, ice, compression and possibly elevation (but not for too long).
This will reduce the swelling and help reduce pain - it's also important to retain the range of movement, so slow and gentle flexion/extension is good too - with the weight off the limb. The you can turn to using voltaren gel or another of the anti-inflammatory topical applications (gels etc) to help reduce inflammation as well, especially good while you're exercising. For pain relief - 200mg paracetamol every six hours is our basic prescription at pain management, works really well and is well-tolerated.

You said that you've had problems in the past: it might be important to have your knee re-assessed for the best management, before you start on a programme of lots of strength training.

I agree with Kashmir about working your quads - that's definitely the first step to improving the stability of your knee whether you have surgery in the end or not. To progress from the exercises she's suggested, your next step is to stand about a foot away from a wall, lean up against the wall, and slide up and down (to about where your knees are at 90 degrees). Holding that lowered position will tire the muscles on both sets (quads and hams), and you'll work quads when standing up again.

Another good way to exercise them is in water - either aqua-jogging, or simply walking in water or exercising along the side allows resistance training with less impact/jarring than on land.

I hope this helps - but do go and have your knee reviewed by an orthopaedic surgeon and/or physiotherapist before much longer. If it's collapsing over rough ground, and you don't really trust it, and its swelling and so on, it's time to get it looked at!
 

Kharis

New member
Have got my knees strapped up after trying African dance workshop at folk festival, ie with no warm up. I was showing off trying to do fantastic hip circles and squatting too much.

I am wondering how should I shimmy to save my knees?

Drive the shimmy from the thigh, this minimises knee movement. Also, any twists should be driven from the waist not the hip or thigh. Again, this minimises knee movement.
 

jenc

New member
If you mean straight leg shimmy - I think this is what is giving me probs as pushing the knee back it is so easy to go too far back with a knee that is damaged anyway.
But thanks
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
If you mean straight leg shimmy - I think this is what is giving me probs as pushing the knee back it is so easy to go too far back with a knee that is damaged anyway.
But thanks

K, keep the knees BENT when you do this shimmy. Just slightly, but enough that you won't want to slam the knee backward. You MAY have to relearn this shimmy and practice it slowly until you can get to the point where you're not slamming the knee back.

The "Twist" is a fundamental movement in Egyptian dance, and it's often one of the first movements a real Arab will show you. But do like Kharis said -- twist from the waistline (the obliques). If you twist this way, you should see NO MOVEMENT at all in the knee. A lot of people twist and manage to torque their knees because they allow the knee joint to absorb the twist. Don't. Keep it totally in the waistline.

Same thing goes for Figure 8s or any move where the hips are not on a direct plane with the knees and feet. Make sure the waist muscles absorb the twist. You should see hardly any movement at all in the knees when you do figure 8s or circles or anything.

Jen -- I don't FULLY understand the anatomy involved, but I'm told a lot of knee problems and pain are related to tightness in the ilio-tibial (IT) band (the muscles on the side of your thigh.) I know extensive glute work can lead to tightness there, and a lot of ballet instructors will now tell you to work with a foam roller to get a kind of deep-muscle massage of the IT band. You might try that. It hurts for the first few times you do it, but after that it feels remarkably good.
 

Reen.Blom

New member
Jen -- I don't FULLY understand the anatomy involved, but I'm told a lot of knee problems and pain are related to tightness in the ilio-tibial (IT) band (the muscles on the side of your thigh.) I know extensive glute work can lead to tightness there, and a lot of ballet instructors will now tell you to work with a foam roller to get a kind of deep-muscle massage of the IT band. You might try that. It hurts for the first few times you do it, but after that it feels remarkably good.

Does that mean that glute driven shimmies a-la Suhaila are out? Does that mean they have bigger impact on the knees than Egyptian shimmy?
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Does that mean that glute driven shimmies a-la Suhaila are out? Does that mean they have bigger impact on the knees than Egyptian shimmy?

Well, to clarify -- Suhaila always says she doesn't shimmy. She vibrates. I think she uses two different words because she views these are two different things.

No, glute-driven hipwork or vibrations aren't out at all -- but when we do a lot of glute work, we're strongly encouraged to massage the IT band, and to use the foam roller thing on the area of the IT band. (I was told the same thing by my trainer last year, but I ignored her because I didn't want to mess with massages and the roller, cuz it's not comfortable.)

Suhaila believes that knee-driven shimmies are not good for you. I do not share this belief, ASSUMING that you're doing the shimmy in proper form, and not slamming the knees back, and not hyperextending.

Now, it's not like I can actually DO the glute-driven vibration for any length of time, and I can barely get it to begin with, but this particular movement doesn't seem to have any noticeable affect on the knee JOINT at all. (The part that actually vibrates is the gluteus medias, which is kind of the upper part of the glute.)

But, you know the foot bone's connected to the whatever bone, and I THINK the way this works is that the glute muscle (gluteus maximus) is somehow connected to the IT band, and that's all working with the muscles around the knees, and so if you overwork one, you risk overworking or hurting the others, and that's why you're supposed to roll on the foam roller. I REALLY should have listened to my trainer, and I didn't, so I may be getting a lot of this wrong, but what I got out of out sessions was this:

Knee pain -- could be from tight IT band -- (multiple causes of tight IT band) -- fixed by rolling on the foam roller.

My last ballet teacher always swore by "rolling" only he used tennis balls. He was crazy that way.

OTOH:

My partner in dance has always done the "american shimmy" or whatever, where you shimmy by using your obliques and waist muscles. She can "shimmy" while sitting in a chair, just by alternately pulling up her side muscles. She's never complained of knee pain and thinks THIS shimmy is the safest.

your mileage may vary...
 

jenc

New member
I was thinking I would develop the american shimmy as I have worked the waist muscles.

I think that my particular knee probs are more likely to be the result of not enough exercise - not too much of any kind!!!
About 4 years ago, my right knee started to dislocate sideways. Whe I tried to get out of car, my thighs moved sideways and my foot remained stationary!! OUCH!! had to stand up and kick foot out hard to get leg back. Eventually I lost some weight and I don't remember how but it went away.
Apart from doing straight leg shimmy drill without warming up - the other probs i have with that leg are:
1 Hip is hypermobile and turns out unless I control it
2 Foot pronates (rolls inwards and flattens) This is acerbated by
3 Weakness in ankle due to break in 2005.
This means that unless vI concentrate very hard (or keep muscles very well-exercised) the weight does not travel down my leg in a straight line. I need to find some exercises to strengthen leg to straighten it up. Otherwise any time I bend my leg, or shift my weight, my knee is twisted in one plane or another and therefore uneven stress causes pain.
I know, I should see a physio and I should go private to avoid 6 month NHS waiting list!!
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Here found the muscule pix:
HIP AND THIGH - myDr.com.au

So IT band is not muscule... LOL

Eeeek I do have trouble idolating the glutes...


Thanks - I am probably so BADLY misquoting all this. Thing is, I HAVE the ACE anatomy book, and I'm supposed to be studying for this, but I just haven't. (Shame)

I only half-listened to my trainer because at the time I just wanted her to tell me what to do and then go away. She was kind of humorless. I didn't care to hear reasons or philosophies. I always figured I'd learn that later. mistake.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
You poor thing!!

Yeah, strength in one area and weakness in another always can contribute to injuries. In ballet, we were supposed to ALWAYS work out and work certain groups of muscles to balance out the ones we tended to overuse. (Of course that never happened, and as a result we ended up with weaknesses and injuries.)

Get the book DANCING LONGER DANCING STRONGER by Watkins and Clarkson. It's a MUST. It will give you exercises to do to strengthen your weak areas, and has a series of questions to help you figure out what exercises you need to do.


I was thinking I would develop the american shimmy as I have worked the waist muscles.

I think that my particular knee probs are more likely to be the result of not enough exercise - not too much of any kind!!!
About 4 years ago, my right knee started to dislocate sideways. Whe I tried to get out of car, my thighs moved sideways and my foot remained stationary!! OUCH!! had to stand up and kick foot out hard to get leg back. Eventually I lost some weight and I don't remember how but it went away.
Apart from doing straight leg shimmy drill without warming up - the other probs i have with that leg are:
1 Hip is hypermobile and turns out unless I control it
2 Foot pronates (rolls inwards and flattens) This is acerbated by
3 Weakness in ankle due to break in 2005.
This means that unless vI concentrate very hard (or keep muscles very well-exercised) the weight does not travel down my leg in a straight line. I need to find some exercises to strengthen leg to straighten it up. Otherwise any time I bend my leg, or shift my weight, my knee is twisted in one plane or another and therefore uneven stress causes pain.
I know, I should see a physio and I should go private to avoid 6 month NHS waiting list!!
 

jenc

New member
YouTube - Cassiopeia Belly Dance How To - Rocker Shimmy



You can see here that this shimmy isn't knee driven. Checkout the rest of of Cassioeia's stuff on YouTube, including 4 more demos of this shimmy with variations. She's the only YouTube instructor who's always worth watching and the only one that I would pay to get a dvd of her YiouTube stuff

Wher has the YouTube icon gone? I had to insert that vid by hand (writing in code)
 
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