Not to fan any more flames but.....

[Tarik Sultan]

I'm not keen on 'if you're a woman you MUST like' statements... and to the same extent I would think that there are many men who feel just as grumpy about 'if you're a man you MUST like' statements....
Having said this - there is often a basis for the gender stereotypes that we refer to - it's just that they are only a stereotype, not applicable to each and every man, woman, child or geek.
Perhaps it's possible for some of us at least to treat each other as if we are human beings rather than carbon copies of some gender stereotype that we have been trained to identify with?
I hope so - and in my work in pain management at least, I hope I can have the ability to recognise that men have a softer side, women have a harder side - and all of us can appreciate good friendship!

You are so right. I spoke about this in my class yesterday. Women on stage have to be able to access their strength, emotional and psychological and express that through their bodies. They have to take up physical space, not just with their bodies, how much arm space they use, but put the energy behind it and make the emotional/psychological statement that they have a rightful place in the world and this is it! Women have been brainwashed to be seen but not heard in the world that often gets expressed in posture that is non-threatening, unassertive, passive. Women have upper body strength and muscles. Even if we look at "traditional" women's roles, It takes physical strength to carry a baby AND work in the fields. It takes upper body strength to fetch water, fire wood, wash clothes. Are you kidding me? try doing any of that stuff with butter muscles! Elite women were the ones who were supposed to sit and manage servants not get dirt under their nails and so we've all been brainwashed to strive for that ideal.... and die from osteoporosis from the lack of exercise. Life is so much better for everyone when we can realize so much of what we are expected to do and be is a load of crap and we are better off giving the toilet a good flush!

 

[Brea]

...

 

[cathy]

Hi Tarik

I agree with what you are saying about yin/yang energy and also women taking space, projecting energy, confidence, and strength! (You have been helping me a lot with these ideas, and it can take awhile!) Maybe this dance is a chance to round out character and expression in general, for either gender.

Last time I checked, no one needs a permit in this country to do this dance, or to hold an event and invite any particular group of dancers to perform, for instance, an all male event. No one can stop you! But I can see why it would be really irksome that anyone would try to, or would predict doom and gloom to the future of the dance because of it.

I'm all in favor of acknowledging and developing the humanity in each of us and all of us rather than setting arbitrary limits and definitions in terms of who can be, think, or do what. (As long as it's not hurting anyone of course.)

It seems to me like the parallel insults generated by the patriarchal structure are: women who don't toe the line are called sluts and whores, or at the very least ugly, loud and mannish (Hilary Clinton) and men who don't toe the line are called gay or effeminate. This goes for this dance but also WELL beyond it. Both are designed to shut up the supposed offender, control them through shame and doubt. It's ironic but a lot of times these concepts are enforced more zealously within the gender group than from the outside.

Cathy

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I suppose that was one thing I was curious about, Tarik; the expression of that faux 'maleness' onstage that you believe should be used. I see that you are saying it is for the purpose of showing those men who are afraid that there is nothing to be afraid of (they can still be men and dance). I once had a history prof who said 'you can't drag them kicking and screaming into the light. You have to hold their hands'. His reasoning was that people would just reject anything you suddenly presented but if they were eased into it slowly it would come more naturally to them. Perhaps this is the point you are coming from?

This does confuse people at times. I think there is a major difference between being male and macho. Male is nature, mocho is the faux construct of what maleness should be. What most men are afraid of is being perceived as being weak. This is why they are uncomfortable with effeminate men. When I say manly, I'm talking about body language, the way we carry ourselves as opposed to the way women do. Even when a woman is what we would call butch, there is still a difference in the way she carries herself as opposed to a man. I think it has to do with simple mechanics of how male and female bodies are designed.

What I'm saying is that most guys expect that to step out of the stereotype means to be skipping around and drinking tea with the pinky raised. Know what I mean. What I'm saying is that they need to see men, who still carry themselves like men, not because they are TRYING to LOOK like men, but because they just are who and what they are. The way we see men being just walking down the street for instance, so hard to describe in writing. Anyway, men just being ordinary men, not MACHOs not but still men, being graceful. Okay I guess i have to show it.






Look at the way these guys carry themselves. There's something about them that we recognize as male. They are not trying to BE they are BEING. They are not acting MACHO, but even though they are defying the MACHO stereotype, they do not look effeminate. They are graceful, comfortable in their bodies manly, but not in an aggressive or threatening way. Am I making sense? This is what most guys need to see. That they can access a different energy and it won't mean that they will not look like "women", soft, sissy.... whatever. I don't try to ACT like a man when I dance. I am comfortable with who I am so what I am just expresses itself, I don't have to make it but I look like a man even though I'm not a rugged guy or a MACHO.

 

[Brea]

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[Caroline_afifi]

The Middle East does have gender stereotypes although holding hands, dancing and greeting with kisses are perfectly ok.
There are definate roles for both men and women and rules of society in relation to both genders.

What men generally are able to do with MED is take the aspect of MED culture which is acceptable and bring it into their dance.
I cant explain this well.
There are things in MED which men can adopt whilst rejecting other aspects. Having the freedom to dance in this way without being judged for is one of them.
Women do the same, we often take the things we like from the Middle East and express it because it allows us to do things which our own cultures may frown upon.

 

[Brea]

...

 

[Sara]

:think: I'm not too sure about the stereotypes that girls and boys MUST like this and that. Perhaps it applies where you live, but here it is not so.

Yes there are general sterotypes, but it is not that we must or mustn't do or like something, just that generally different genders do. For example a typical night at the pub.

I LOVE ale, cider, owt in a pint glass. Give me a pint of larger and I'm a happy bunny. Generally this is seen as a guys drink because it's mostly guys that like it. It's not because they must, just there prefere it. Most of my girl friends will get spirits with soft drinks or wine. I abhor wine, but enjoy spirits. They don't get it because they've been programmed to think that it's girly, they just enjoy it. I think this is what makes for the difference between the sexes as seen and understood as general.

People do things they enjoy. Stereotypes like this exist because generally it's what a large majority of the sex enjoys doing. All my girl friends, whatever their background, enjoy going clothes shopping. They like to dress themselves up in whatever fashion. But I know guys that like it too. It's just more of my guy friends would rather go to play rugby than go shopping. It's just how it is. No one is saying or influencing them. They are simply doing what they want to do. I know a lot of the rugby team enjoy clothes shopping. I think people rarely act by stereotypes, they just do as they please, and it so happens that these things can generally be stereotyped. That is the case of things here at any rate.

 

[khanjar]

Interesting what you say there Sara, as I do know with the younger, the traditional male and female stereotypes are not as prevalent, this I am seeing in Britain, and welcome it as a good thing, maybe there is a possibility that Britain is moving forward.

You see, we are now seeing as far as cosmetics goes, cosmetics for men, and a whole industry being raised up on making a male make the best of themselves, clothing and even 'man bags'. Now I understand this could be an untapped area for marketing to make a living in the already swamped women's personal care industries, but when I was younger, men did not wear cosmetics and moisturiser, what was that ? Oh, to moisturise the skin, why ? But, now it has all changed, and male attitudes are changing with it. Hopefully for the better

Now having said that about the personal care industries nor targeting men, it does occur that us later males are different. Different in that aside from aftershaves, cosmetics for men are something very new, as are some of the fashions and with that the attitudes, just as it is for the older generation, what we do in this present generation is different to the older and their attitudes. We of our age group have been brought up with the notion that males who dance are different.

My youth, well males who gyrated around a dance floor were seen as strange and possibly 'puffy' as we used to say. Discos and the like, the females danced and the males quaffed their ale. Occaisionaly a male drunk enough would get up to dance, well, they got up onto the dance floor, but it wasn't dance, more of a case of someone wanted to show they were brave in entering an area where angels fear to tread. I remember one person who dressed differently and kept himself to himself, when a particular song came on, he got up and impressively did his thing, a well rehearsed piece and pretty impressive at that, the likes of which we only saw on tv, only to get run out of the club for being different and possibly a 'puff'.Such were the attitudes to dance in my youth, it was not a man's thing to do. Oh, the elder generation often danced, but that was an elder thing, barn dances and ballroom dancing.

I know no one of my age group who is male and dances, so this is where I base my oppinion on how males of my age group might see a male who dances, especially MED, as this in our past was pretty unusual, and what we knew of it, it was a female dance.

It would be interesting to know of what age in reality those who might question a male who dances MED are. Is it just a product of the past, or is it the same now with the younger generation ?

It would also be interesting to see how the younger generation of males view a male who does BD, thus indicating whether we are really moving forward or not.

 

[Brea]

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[jenc]

I don't think that the UK is doing so well. I am particularly worried about gender differntiation for children. Pink princesses BRATS . There is so much girly stuff around that gender lines seem to be getting tighter. Yes men now take more care of themselves with better grooming, but this is just a cosmetic change in more ways than the obvious ie it is a surface change.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I don't think that the UK is doing so well. I am particularly worried about gender differntiation for children. Pink princesses BRATS . There is so much girly stuff around that gender lines seem to be getting tighter. Yes men now take more care of themselves with better grooming, but this is just a cosmetic change in more ways than the obvious ie it is a surface change.

I agree with you Jenc.
Women drinking pints and men dancing is nothing to do with societies expectations of men and women. Things are changeing and have changed and the years and the lines have become more blurred. Through many years of unemployment etc. the male role has diminished and has become less defined.
Studies have shown that this is half way responsible for the rise in aggressive attacks and domestic violence. Women have always been hard workers and laborers and have always been able to fight and defend. Equality is not about mimicing each others behaviour or sharing the same interests, it is much deeper than that.

 

[lizaj]

I don't think that the UK is doing so well. I am particularly worried about gender differntiation for children. Pink princesses BRATS . There is so much girly stuff around that gender lines seem to be getting tighter. Yes men now take more care of themselves with better grooming, but this is just a cosmetic change in more ways than the obvious ie it is a surface change.

Damn !!!the grand daughter loves pink. However Barbie or Bratz appear to have been either banned or sidetracked by her mother in favour of puppies.

 

[Sara]

I was trying to explain that stereotpyes of what genders must and mustn't like are influenced by what that particular sex do or don't generally like.

I think all these Barbies and Bratz are nothing compared to Playboy! My cousin bless her, was desperate for a Playboy compact set thing for her 9th birthday! It's everywhere. Pens, notebooks, chairs, computer mice pads. Hate Playboy.

 

[Brea]

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[Shanazel]

Would you grow chest hair for me?:lol: Seriously, this is exactly the same situation. Mind you now, it isn't that anyone has discriminated against me really. I mean I did know that there was no other teacher that was going to encourage me the way Morocco did, but this was compensated by what I did get. I certainly am welcome wherever I go, but there's just that something. Like going to Rakassa, seeing all those fabulous costumes knowing there will never be one in my size, so I can't share in the shopping experience the same way. Sounds silly, but you know what I mean, there's just that thing. Like if you were the only American in the middle of China. Even though you are made to feel welcome, you know you will never be able to relate quite the same way or experience the world from the exact same perspective. Not having any other guys to watch dancing was huge. I didn't have a clue or a sense of security as to how to be a man in this dance till I went to Egypt and saw them. It gave me a clear vision of how men express themselves physically in the dance and how to bring that energy to the stage. I could compare it to what the women were doing and see the similarities and differences. I guess its like how girls feel seeing a successful woman like Oprah, or the way she felt seeing a black woman like Diane Carrol on T.V. in the 60's. Some people need that connection, others don't. None is better than the other, just different.

Sorry, kiddo, the chest hair thing is probably not going to happen, though when my son and half a dozen of his friends gather at the house there is enough testosterone in the atmosphere for one to get a contact high.

Being the only member of the non-represented sex in any field gives one a unique point of view. In retrospect, I wouldn't change my past experiences as the lone woman in my former field. It was intersting, challenging, if not always comfortable or companionable. I got a unique education and so did the guys with whom I worked. Even so, I understand the pleasure you took in seeing men dance in Egypt. The first time I worked with a female crew was amazing.

 

[khanjar]

So, what is the source of all this social disharmony, surely it cannot just be the fact that we are people and we will never change, there has to be an influence that perpetuates the problems, perhaps creates problems even where there should be none.

What about marketing, I mentioned before about the cosmetic industries causing a change, be it a surface change, but a change none the less.

Could it be, we as a society are being controlled and manipulated by industry, clever marketing creating a need and feeding the need and stuff the consequences as money matters more ?

Marketing always has been a science which incorporates human psychology and understanding how a social group thinks is the key to marketing. Marketing takes aim at social groups, not individuals, as groups are the most profitable and they have the ability to influence.

How many activities has one seen that as soon as commercial interests take hold, that activity, music being a good example, rapidly expands out of all proportion and often takes on guises that were never meant ?

Guns and knife crime, why is it that has increased, why do people, children even, seem to think a weapon is a must have?

From what I hear, the last knife amnesty in Britain, the only people that benefited from that were the cutlers, all those kitchen knives having to be replaced and with ease,( a kitchen knife being the most popular knife handed to the police)

Could it be that marketing is responsible for a lot of the ills in society and there the same misunderstandings we seem to have ?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

So, what is the source of all this social disharmony, surely it cannot just be the fact that we are people and we will never change, there has to be an influence that perpetuates the problems, perhaps creates problems even where there should be none.

What about marketing, I mentioned before about the cosmetic industries causing a change, be it a surface change, but a change none the less.

Could it be, we as a society are being controlled and manipulated by industry, clever marketing creating a need and feeding the need and stuff the consequences as money matters more ?

Marketing always has been a science which incorporates human psychology and understanding how a social group thinks is the key to marketing. Marketing takes aim at social groups, not individuals, as groups are the most profitable and they have the ability to influence.

How many activities has one seen that as soon as commercial interests take hold, that activity, music being a good example, rapidly expands out of all proportion and often takes on guises that were never meant ?

Guns and knife crime, why is it that has increased, why do people, children even, seem to think a weapon is a must have?

From what I hear, the last knife amnesty in Britain, the only people that benefited from that were the cutlers, all those kitchen knives having to be replaced and with ease,( a kitchen knife being the most popular knife handed to the police)

Could it be that marketing is responsible for a lot of the ills in society and there the same misunderstandings we seem to have ?

Phew.. what a question!
I feel that generally there is a distinct lack of postive role models for young people. Popular media does not help with all the latest 'must haves' etc. what about the 'have nots'?
We have a huge problem amongst young men and women in the UK. High rates of teenage pregnancy, smoking, knife crime, alcohol abuse and anti-social behaviour etc. Young people are literally killing each other.
Some of the images in musicare based around hard men and sexy girls (ho's) the music and youth culture is a large part, along with X BOX etc. Grand Theft Auto games and the rest.
Of course there has to be more to it than that as all the boys I knew played cow boys and Indians and weilded bows and arrow and guns etc. but turned out OK.
Unfortunately we grew up in Thatchers Britain which destroyed local communites and invented the Yuppy. Most turned to enterprise of dog eat dog including selling drugs and dealing weapons.
Football and rock music used to be the way out of the Ghetto, now it is selling drugs and bagging yourself a footballer.
For the working classes, the band Pulp said it best in the late 90's.. 'We drink, we dance and we screw cos there is F*** all else to do' its still true.

 

[khanjar]

Phew.. what a question!
I feel that generally there is a distinct lack of postive role models for young people. Popular media does not help with all the latest 'must haves' etc. what about the 'have nots'?
We have a huge problem amongst young men and women in the UK. High rates of teenage pregnancy, smoking, knife crime, alcohol abuse and anti-social behaviour etc. Young people are literally killing each other.
Some of the images in musicare based around hard men and sexy girls (ho's) the music and youth culture is a large part, along with X BOX etc. Grand Theft Auto games and the rest.
Of course there has to be more to it than that as all the boys I knew played cow boys and Indians and weilded bows and arrow and guns etc. but turned out OK.
Unfortunately we grew up in Thatchers Britain which destroyed local communites and invented the Yuppy. Most turned to enterprise of dog eat dog including selling drugs and dealing weapons.
Football and rock music used to be the way out of the Ghetto, now it is selling drugs and bagging yourself a footballer.
For the working classes, the band Pulp said it best in the late 90's.. 'We drink, we dance and we screw cos there is F*** all else to do' its still true.

Yes, that is a point, when I was younger, cowboys and indians was the game, and yes everyone I knew turned out ok, and I grew up near Liverpool in the eighties where there was no hope with near on one in four out of work. Rubbish job to rubbish job and very low pay, but I didn't turn to drugs and crime, neither did those I knew, so what happened? All I can think of, is what has happened since, where has the violence come from ?

Then we have tv now, terrestrial tv I am thinking, what is on tv, well there are sitcoms where males are made out to be stupid, fly on the wall people watching programmes, soaps where reality is twisted, too many police programmes where they appear constantly to be prosecuting people and this latest thing, 'The Apprentice ' and the like, that is appalling that programme and it's popular, why ? Is this indicative of our nation, if it is, then I can see the rot.

Where I used to live I learned something about crime and children, that was that some children think nothing about committing crime, as there is no one to stop them. I am not talking petty crime here, but car theft, underage driving and that recklessly, destruction of property and assault, adult crimes. The police, pretty useless in the fact that they were even scared to deal with fourteen year olds, because fourteen year olds knew their rights better than anyone and the justice system is incapable in that anyone the police try to prosecute generally gets let off with at worst, an anti social behaviour order which the police are meant to control, but can't because children know their rights. Plus the fact that p.c. plod knows children carry weapons and appear not afraid to use them and with that a lone copper always will think twice about his actions, as it is not worth risking loss of life or injury for someone that seems above the law.

So, society is rotting, going backwards, the lawless kids what will they become I wonder. I cannot help thinking this over emphasis on a person's human rights and the associated sychophants have something to do with it, as often public order and human rights do not coincide.

So, what does this mean for the rest of, those of us who just want to get along with each other and enjoy social gatherings where we may engage in dance of all things, without fear of segregation and abuse ?

Society is changing, but not all in the same direction at the same time, maybe it is that fragmentation of societal groups is the only way forward, those of us who want to get along go one way and leave the rest to it?

 

[Aniseteph]

I read something recently about a woman in S London who works with problem kids and puts the knife culture and all the aggression is down to lousy parenting - they are brought up so badly with no one taking proper care of them or setting boundaries etc. that they are like cornered animals ready to attack at the slightest perceived threat, eg someone looking at them "funny". And once there's an element behaving like this it spreads to the less disturbed ones who then think they need knives for protection.

And before they get old enough to get a bit of sense and maturity they are off breeding more feral kids.