Great dancer vs. Dancer with a degree???

[samira shuruk]

Dear Mayte and Mariesaffron,
You will both also hear a lot about "certification" as well as degrees. Mahmoud Reda once said something pretty reasonable about the idea of westerners giving out certifications in Middle Eastern dance. He basically intimated that even in the Middle East there is no certification, so who do we think we are to give them out?? I agree wholeheartedly with his opinion.

And he has since started his own teacher and professional certification program. http://www.safticraft.com/events.asp

I agree that the American certifications are specifically certifying people in their own style of American belly dance.

From the original post- I'd have to say a flat out NO- you cannot learn online and in books what they teach you in a university dance program.
AND you cannot learn in university the same things you learn in real-life, out there working. I think they both combine to create a more complete education.
At the same time everyone is correct in saying there is no degree in Middle Eastern dance, although there are some in dance ethnography. I think this could be very relevant and could also provide you with invaluable knowledge and skills to really optimize your time in Arab/med countries (or with those of the culture). Not to mention that "precious" piece of paper so many Americans look for when hiring for teaching positions.

 

[Recnadocir]

I spent nearly 4 years in the college dance environment. The most valuable things I got were:
1. For the most part, good technical training, particularly in ballet and modern, from teachers who had been with some of the top dance companies
2. Good training in the craft of choreography. No one can give you the inspiration, of course, but choreography has craft, and like painting, sculpture, music or writing, it is the craft or form which can be formalized and taught. Louis Horst, Doris Humphrey, and others have written very valuable texts on choreography. Most of what they teach is applicable to choreographing all forms of dance, not just modern.
3. Education about the major historical artistic movements, and musical form, which help develop musicality. In my choreography 2 class, we focused on pre-classic dance forms and Baroque music. In choreography 3, the advanced class, we mostly followed the choreography course developed by Louis Horst, when he was accompanist for the Martha Graham company.

What I didn't get was formal training in how to teach, especially kids. I've developed my own teaching style, or should say I am, as I think it's a perpetual work in progress. But I try to emulate the best of my best teachers. Teaching kids, however, is an art unto itself. I may yet go back and take a course in child development, another in adolescent psychology. Other than that, it's mostly o.j.t. There are numerous good written resources, though, and many workshops for dance teachers, especially in jazz and ballet.

As the Suhaila Salimpour school has the most structured, rigorous and intense training, and as Suhaila is one of the most sought after teachers for workshops around the world, I did most of my belly dance training there. I've taken class from a number of teachers, and few have come close. That being said, though I've taken her classes up to level III, I don't do the certificate thing, too expensive for me. I do think it is clever marketing on her part, and certainly don't see any great sin in it, it just isn't necessary to my goals. However, I think what she and her mother have done, in codifying the dance form, introducing a syllabus, etc. should be recognized as one of the great achievements in belly dance in the last 30 years, whether or not you like Suhaila's personal movement style. Personally, I like the style very much, and I think the anatomically and biomechanically referenced codification makes the movement much easier to teach and learn, and gives it much more legitimacy in the company of Western dance forms, than the use of vague, non-specific terminology does.

In general, degrees and certificates are most useful, I think, in securing teaching positions. To become a tenured dance faculty member an advanced degree is mandatory. To teach kids or adults in private studios, having a track record is more important, as is having a respected body of work as a choreographer. In my case, I haven't been teaching kids that long, and I didn't get my actual degree in dance. It's my choreography that carried the most weight in getting my new position, so they told me.

 

[Recnadocir]

And he has since started his own teacher and professional certification program. http://www.safticraft.com/events.asp

Isn't that interesting!

I agree that the American certifications are specifically certifying people in their own style of American belly dance.

No argument there.

I'd have to say a flat out NO- you cannot learn online and in books what they teach you in a university dance program.
AND you cannot learn in university the same things you learn in real-life, out there working. I think they both combine to create a more complete education.

Absolutely true!

And there is now at least one BFA program in Flamenco Dance in the USA, at UNM. I've seen them dance, they are awesome. Perhaps a BFA in Middle Eastern Dance is not a bad idea, as it could only increase the legitimacy of belly dance in the eyes of the performance arts presenters and university dance people in this country. More mainstream= more performance ops= more $$$ for all.

 

[Gabi]

Dear Mariesaffron,
Morocco has no degree in dance. She and I have discussed this in depth. Sahra , who is a really NICE person as well as an excellent Egyptian dancer, got her real dance education in Egypt. Let me assure you this is true. It is entirely possbile to go back to some of her early American style dance videos and see the truth of what I am saying. She was in fact, a mediocre dancer before she went to Egypt. She is one of the few who came back from there, having immersed herself in the culture, setting aside her own world view, getting an understanding of the people and the dance and taking it into her heart anhd body.This was her true education. She may even teach at university now, but believe me there is no degree in Middle Eastern dance, or if there is it is a VERY recent development. The degree is usually in other froms of dance, with perhaps a class or two in Middle Eastern dance. I think Angelika Nemeth does the same thing, and perhaps Andrea Deagon, too.
Regards,
A'isha

So your opinion is that a dancer cannot be excellent unless they go to Egypt?? Am I reading this correctly??

I would offer that opinions undoubtably vary as to what constitutes "excellence"

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I think what she was saying was that for Sahra, the Egyptian experience actually changed the way she danced.

Shareen el Safy has said basically the same thing.

There's a huge difference in the way Americans (typcially) view dance and hear music, as compared to native Egyptians (or fill in the blank with your chosen ethnic dance). People who have studied extensively in Egypt will tell you this.

I studied Spanish dance (briefly) in Jerez in Spain. THAT was an eye-opener. There is no substitute for being In Culture. The smells, the heat, the body language of the people, the language, the hostilities, the history -- all that wraps up into this amazing package that just can't be duplicated in books or travel videos.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Degrees

Dear Gabi,
I did not in any way imply that I think one must go to Egypt to be an excellent dancer. I stated clearly, precisely, that Sahra Saida had learned how to dance in Egypt. I also said that she is "one of the few" who do go and come back with a really changed style in their dancing. Sometimes people go and come back with no visible changes in their style.

Dear Aziyade,
I study with Shareen el Safy every chance I get! She is my very favorite person to take classes with because she is so there with the dance! The first time I ever took a class from her I learned more in that one 3 hour workshop than I had learned in years! I have continued to find that I get something of great value every time I manage to get to study with her. I can not say enough good things about her as a teacher or dancer! She gets to the very soul of the dance and is both eager and able to share that with others.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Gabi]

Dear Gabi,
I did not in any way imply that I think one must go to Egypt to be an excellent dancer. I stated clearly, precisely, that Sahra Saida had learned how to dance in Egypt. I also said that she is "one of the few" who do go and come back with a really changed style in their dancing. Sometimes people go and come back with no visible changes in their style.

Well thank you for clearing that up

edited for bitchiness

 

[Gabi]

I think what she was saying was that for Sahra, the Egyptian experience actually changed the way she danced.

Shareen el Safy has said basically the same thing.

There's a huge difference in the way Americans (typcially) view dance and hear music, as compared to native Egyptians (or fill in the blank with your chosen ethnic dance). People who have studied extensively in Egypt will tell you this.

I studied Spanish dance (briefly) in Jerez in Spain. THAT was an eye-opener. There is no substitute for being In Culture. The smells, the heat, the body language of the people, the language, the hostilities, the history -- all that wraps up into this amazing package that just can't be duplicated in books or travel videos.

Thank you - I am sure you are correct that if one wants to approximate as closely as possible how the dance is in that particular culture this would be a great help.

 

[Maria_Aya]

Wow, this is a flame subject in Greece last year.
Some info:
In Greece exist ESXE, its the National Dance Council.
They give the certificates for all the latin/ball room dances and the system they use is the International.
Now what happened the last year, for us the dancers and teachers of middle east dance, or bellydance, is outragous.
ESXE gave permition to ONLY 1 dance school, to certificate teachers for bellydance.
I've seen the sylabus for the programme and it is based in the way latin dance is teached. But we all know that oriental cant be teached this way.
I've seen the first dancers/teachers that got the bronge level......
How could people from ESXE with NO experience and NO knowledge in oriental dance, decide that someone (a teacher that is really a sweet sweet girl, and I understand that she is doing the best for her and her school from professional point of view) be qualified to decide ???
There was many objections from the begining from many oriental dance teachers.
My point of view is: a) I was mad at the begining
b) I dont care at all now.
Why? because the essence the feeling and the soul of oriental dance can not be captured in a certificate.
And what's the point of having a paper if you dont have the real knowledge?
At the end of the day, people recognize the real, hard work and go to the good teachers, certificated or not.

My 5 cents.
Maria Aya

 

[Lydia]

great dancer vs dancer with a degree

a verry big i agree with A,isha ,thank you very much!!!

 

[Asheba]

I personally do not feel that a certificate makes you a better dancer, than someone who has otherwise....dancing comes from the very heart of your soul and I think that you have to feel the moves, the music, the moment...it is something that cannot be explained only felt....it can move you to tears because you love it so much....yes one can decide to train for years but if the feeling isn't there, it all becomes very perfunctionary......dancing from within is something that you want to do every day of your life, it makes you feel happy, you forget any problems you may have...you sing inside...anyway thats how it makes me feel. xxxx ps. i also think it shows in performances..there always seems to be something missing it becomes wooden.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I get to study with her next weekend! Whoo hoo! We're trying to bring her to the Louisville area, but it's slow-going.

I was SO mad about the "review" of her last DVD in Gilded Serpent that I wrote a letter to the editor about it. Shareen called me to thank me for it. I was elated for months! I keep telling her she needs to put her old videos back into print, but I realize she's got other fish to fry. Sigh...

I study with Shareen el Safy every chance I get! She is my very favorite person to take classes with because she is so there with the dance! The first time I ever took a class from her I learned more in that one 3 hour workshop than I had learned in years! I have continued to find that I get something of great value every time I manage to get to study with her. I can not say enough good things about her as a teacher or dancer! She gets to the very soul of the dance and is both eager and able to share that with others.

 

[Aisha Azar]

culture, etc.

Dear Aziyade,
I think its so wonderful when Shareen gets the accolades she deserves. I hope the workshop is very full so that more peopoe get some exposure to her methids and concepts. I have seen her actaully teach a room with 60 people in it and still make sure everyone gets the attention they should have on a personal basis. I feel that I can still give good individual attention with about 30 people, but not 60. She is amazing and her material is always so right on!
She is one of the teachers who really wants people to walk away with a fuller understanding of what they are trying to do and I love that.
Regards,
A'isha