Plus Size Dancers

[da Sage]

Seperatism??

OK in my city we have a dance festival for the over 50's funded by North West Arts and we have Youth dance festivals and we have cultural festivals etc.
However... a show of larger women? I would say no to be honest.
I would not try to talk anyone out of doing it if that is what they really wanted, but dividing on an issue of body image is a strange path to take. The BDSS only have slim women so a show of larger women will look like a comedy version whether you like it or not, because that is how people will view it (Vicar of Dibley in a Tutu, can anyone get it on youtube?).

Drawing attention to ones body shape in this way is not a positive move.
I think there is already a secret discrimination of bigger women in this dance.
I dont think it will threaten anything by doing so but it will look like you are trying to prove something.

Well, I think they ARE trying to prove something, that is the whole point. And I disagree that such a show will look like a comedy version. The idea is to create a show where large is normal, where their skills and interpretation become the focus. Maybe some of the women who participate wish to not be "the biggest one on stage" for once. Of course, someone always has to be the biggest in every show.

It shouldn't be necessary, but...if it's strongly desired, it probably has its place.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Well, I think they ARE trying to prove something, that is the whole point. And I disagree that such a show will look like a comedy version. The idea is to create a show where large is normal, where their skills and interpretation become the focus. Maybe some of the women who participate wish to not be "the biggest one on stage" for once. Of course, someone always has to be the biggest in every show.

It shouldn't be necessary, but...if it's strongly desired, it probably has its place.

Prove what exactly? does that mean we need a big boob/small boobs shows to prove that small breasted women are as good as big ones?
where does this end?

Like I said, if that is what people want to do then so be it...but, in the real world do you not think that fat is used as comedy? as a fetish? very sad but I am afraid it is true.
In trying to prove something, the opposite may occur and this would be my primary concern.
Why cant fat people be appreciated as part of any show? for me it is the opposite of the male only show. In a male only show, I would argue that the fact they are all men would reduce the novelty value, I am not sure a fat belly dance show would be the same, infact I think the opposite.
For me it is like saying 'we know we are not as worthy but we will try to prove we are'.
A big fat risk me thinks.

 

[da Sage]

Prove what exactly? does that mean we need a big boob/small boobs shows to prove that small breasted women are as good as big ones?
where does this end?

There are already threads on tribe which proclaim the superiority of small-breasted-dancers' figures. But I doubt anyone will get any closer to a small-busted show that the BDSS has, already.

Like I said, if that is what people want to do then so be it...but, in the real world do you not think that fat is used as comedy? as a fetish? very sad but I am afraid it is true.

It is true. But if fat women fear being used for "comedy", they would never leave the house.

In trying to prove something, the opposite may occur and this would be my primary concern.
Why cant fat people be appreciated as part of any show? for me it is the opposite of the male only show. In a male only show, I would argue that the fact they are all men would reduce the novelty value, I am not sure a fat belly dance show would be the same, infact I think the opposite.

That is the tricky part of this idea, and why I am (as I said previously) not so enthused about the idea myself.

For me it is like saying 'we know we are not as worthy but we will try to prove we are'.
A big fat risk me thinks.

There is that side of it, but I will not try to restrict people from saying what they want to (and how they want to), even if I think they could say it better another way. Freedom of speech = freedom of art.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

[

QUOTE=da Sage;81646]There are already threads on tribe which proclaim the superiority of small-breasted-dancers' figures. But I doubt anyone will get any closer to a small-busted show that the BDSS has, already.

Well thank goodness I do not belong to tribe.

It is true. But if fat women fear being used for "comedy", they would never leave the house.

it is really not about this. It is about slapping a label on something. Women of all shapes and sizes are just women when they are joined together doing something. Like A'isha said earlier, it is about the dance not about anything else.
I am just trying to be truthful about what I think may happen.
If larger women stayed in doors then the streets would be empty and nothing would get done.

There is that side of it, but I will not try to restrict people from saying what they want to (and how they want to), even if I think they could say it better another way. Freedom of speech = freedom of art.

[/QUOTE]
Agreed but it is nice to have a discussion on the topic to explore all eventualities. Ater all, it is what this forum is about.

 

[TribalDancer]

There are already threads on tribe which proclaim the superiority of small-breasted-dancers' figures. But I doubt anyone will get any closer to a small-busted show that the BDSS has, already.

What threads are those exactly? I belong to a ton of bellydance tribes, and don't recall anyone touting superiority of any particular body type over another in the bellydance world. On the contrary, they tend to have similar feelings as on any board--that all body types are welcome and have their own beauty!

Well, I will step up and say that I am not so supportive of plus-sized shows as I am of plus-sized classes. The idea is that the plus-sized class is an educational tool, and the plus-sized show is a promotional and bonding event. I wish that plus-sized dancers should not feel that they need their own event; I would hope that after a dancer is advanced enough in skill to perform at a showcase, she (he?) would feel a part of the bellydance world, such that a large-dancer show would have little appeal for them. But story after story proves this is not the case, so I cannot come down on dancers who are intrigued by the idea of a show "just for them".

But the problem is, by creating size/sex/whatever specific shows you send the message that there does in fact need to be separate events. By creating what you see as "opportunities" for a specific cross-section of dancers, you are sending a message to dancers and the public alike that they are different/separate and/or they need to be separated for some reason. Instead, creating events which encourage and showcase dancers of all shapes, sizes, and ages, you reinforce the important message that all are equally welcome and valued!

 

[jenc]

I agree - it is a catch22 situation isn't it? Did you know that all the magazines that have interviews with "real life stories" will only feature size 12 and under. A journalist did an interview with a size 14 war widow and was told never todo it again. What we need is more mainstream featuring of all sizes and looks.

 

[lizaj]

I agree - it is a catch22 situation isn't it? Did you know that all the magazines that have interviews with "real life stories" will only feature size 12 and under. A journalist did an interview with a size 14 war widow and was told never todo it again. What we need is more mainstream featuring of all sizes and looks.

Nothing amazed me more in my life ( well a bit of an exaggeration) when size 14 moved to outsize. Dear lord I just got back to size 14.
Isn't the average UK size 16?
In which case aren't size 16 and there abouts really- real people?
Which magazines? I obviously don't read them as I've never heard of such a thing but then I've moved onto books a while back
Just where is this story about a size 14 war widow and journalist having hand smacked? And what size was the editor and journalist?

Back in the early 1970s I dieted to my lightest ever 8 and a half stone and was all skin and bone but size 10-12 and..... got ordered by my doctor to put some of the weight back on! How times change!

 

[da Sage]

What threads are those exactly? I belong to a ton of bellydance tribes, and don't recall anyone touting superiority of any particular body type over another in the bellydance world. On the contrary, they tend to have similar feelings as on any board--that all body types are welcome and have their own beauty!

I remember there was one talking about the superiority of Bozenka's average bust/generous hips figure for bellydancing. And there are multiple threads about the Indigo girls. I'm sorry I cannot refer you to the exact threads. If my making the statement without backup offends you, I can delete or retract it.

But the problem is, by creating size/sex/whatever specific shows you send the message that there does in fact need to be separate events. By creating what you see as "opportunities" for a specific cross-section of dancers, you are sending a message to dancers and the public alike that they are different/separate and/or they need to be separated for some reason. Instead, creating events which encourage and showcase dancers of all shapes, sizes, and ages, you reinforce the important message that all are equally welcome and valued!

Agreed, when it is a body/gender/ethnic-restricted show - the message will always be mixed, and the undertaking will always be political. I'm not saying I would do it, I'm just saying that there are few situations in which I would discourage those that do want to do it.

 

[Sara]

That's the Vicar of Dibley for yas! Bit long, but you get to the ballet eventually :lol:

I have to say that I don't really agree with larger people only classes. I think that it encourages more of a segregation. We have to take into account that there aren't classes for smaller dancers. So wouldn't a larger people only class just encourage more of a divide between dancers?

I can underdstand the situation, but I think it is important to remember that it is not just larger people who have issues and concerns with their body. I know when I'm in a class I have body worries and concerns. After our class we all end up banging on about our body concerns and general banter, it's what helps us all gel more and we have a laugh about it.

I don't really agree with segregation on any sort of level to be honest. In my area you have seperate schools for most nationalities and if anything it just makes the problems a lot worse. In the past every society has gone through some sort of problems, and I think to breach that gap and make for more understanding people need to mix together. That way we all get to have a better understanding of eachother. I don't think it's right for people to judge who has and who hasn't had a hard time of it, cause most people have in many different ways. But that's just my opinion.

ttfn!

 

[gisela]

This post has somehow disappeared. Maybe for the best...

 

[jenc]

Nothing amazed me more in my life ( well a bit of an exaggeration) when size 14 moved to outsize. Dear lord I just got back to size 14.
Isn't the average UK size 16?
In which case aren't size 16 and there abouts really- real people?
Which magazines? I obviously don't read them as I've never heard of such a thing but then I've moved onto books a while back
Just where is this story about a size 14 war widow and journalist having hand smacked? And what size was the editor and journalist?

:

It was in the Guardian media Section a few months back so I only saw it by chance. i know marie Claire was mentionned but don't know which others. Will check

 

[gisela]

This is weird. I had to post to be able to read the last page of this thread. It wouldn't open otherwise. I have nothing to add to the debate right now unfortunately. Sorry .

 

[Sara]

Hey Gisela! I got that too, lol.

Btw- upon reflection on your point, I can see how in terms of health benefits a class as such could be necessary. Thanks for the point for consideration.

 

[Shanazel]

Large usually means heavy which means a lot of strain and stress on ligaments, knees etc. For learning to move in a soft and safe way and not being tempted into doing a backbend or deep knee bend without having the strength for it there would need to be a teacher with special knowledge in excersise for obese people or something. There are loads of excercise classes at the gym with weight training for overweight people or aerobics for obese etc etc. This is a group of people with a special need.

I have had a lot of students in a lot of sizes over the years and I have not yet needed to suggest a special class for any of them. Do you really think heavy people are more likely to be tempted into moves they aren't ready for than thin people? Then let me introduce you to some thin folks who have strained their backs trying improper backbends or twisted knees because they tried spins before they learned how to move their feet to keep from sticking to the floor or strained their necks because they executed too enthusiastic a head toss.

Size has nothing to do with awareness of physical limitation, and often little to do with physical limitation at all. Come dance sometime with my student "A" who easily weighs 250 pounds, runs a cattle ranch by day and takes BD lessons by night. After seeing her wrestle a few dozen cows to the ground during branding season and undulate through a hafla, one might wish to rethink the whole physical limitation thing.

 

[TribalDancer]

Regarding classes I believe that they are usually created for health and safety reasons. Sure thin people can have issues with their bodies but I don't think this is just a psychological question. Large usually means heavy which means a lot of strain and stress on ligaments, knees etc. For learning to move in a soft and safe way and not being tempted into doing a backbend or deep knee bend without having the strength for it there would need to be a teacher with special knowledge in exercise for obese people or something. There are loads of exercise classes at the gym with weight training for overweight people or aerobics for obese etc etc. This is a group of people with a special need. What would be the physical special need for starting a class only for thin people???

Oh Gisela...I know you're not meaning to be rude, but your statements are so sweeping and stereotyping that I can't help but cringe a little.

You think that large women are the only ones with physical issues and concerns. That large women are somehow more presdisposed to be unaware of their limitations and try to do things which may injure themselves?

I can attest that the thin gals in my troupe complained of knee and joint issues long before I ever did (mine were related to something other than dance, and it wasn't weight). It wasn't because they were heavy or because they were dancing incorrectly either. Bodies have issues, whatever weight or size. And to imply that "fat people need a class for themselves to be safe, thin people don't need that kind of help" rubs me way the wrong way. People of all sizes have their own issues, and we can't create a special class for every issue. We just teach sfe technique, teach our students to be body aware and learn to get into their bodies to better utilize them...they don't need special help or attention no matter what their weight.*

I am not feeling very eloquent today, so I will stop there and hope someone who can access language better than me today can explain better....

(*Unless we are talking morbidly obese, which I have never had in any class I have ever taught or been in, so I can't speak to that.)

 

[TribalDancer]

Um something else wierd happened. My post came up as Gisela's post. Then Gisela's post went away. Something fishy in this thread?

 

[da Sage]

Oh Gisela...I know you're not meaning to be rude, but your statements are so sweeping and stereotyping that I can't help but cringe a little.

You think that large women are the only ones with physical issues and concerns. That large women are somehow more presdisposed to be unaware of their limitations and try to do things which may injure themselves?

I can attest that the thin gals in my troupe complained of knee and joint issues long before I ever did (mine were related to something other than dance, and it wasn't weight). It wasn't because they were heavy or because they were dancing incorrectly either. Bodies have issues, whatever weight or size. And to imply that "fat people need a class for themselves to be safe, thin people don't need that kind of help" rubs me way the wrong way. People of all sizes have their own issues, and we can't create a special class for every issue. We just teach sfe technique, teach our students to be body aware and learn to get into their bodies to better utilize them...they don't need special help or attention no matter what their weight.*

I am not feeling very eloquent today, so I will stop there and hope someone who can access language better than me today can explain better....

(*Unless we are talking morbidly obese, which I have never had in any class I have ever taught or been in, so I can't speak to that.)

For what it's worth, the local bellydance class that was offered for "people with body issues" (sorry for the poor phrasing; I didn't attend the class, so I forget the exact name of it) included a slender person with joint problems, besides (mostly) people of greater-than-average-size whose body issues were largely self-esteem related. And as far as I understand it, this was a by-request class...meaning these ladies got together and found an excellent local teacher. So if that's the class they wanted, what's wrong with letting them have it?

Fat people generally don't have the same body preoccupations that skinny people do. Their preoccupations are usually different. As a fat person, I find some of the local "standard" strengthening exercises and dance moves difficult/uncomfortable to do (Triceps pushups, anyone? Hoppy steps?).

What you find condescending, another would-be dancer might find accommodating. I say, let the market sort it out.

 

[gisela]

Oh Gisela...I know you're not meaning to be rude, but your statements are so sweeping and stereotyping that I can't help but cringe a little.

You think that large women are the only ones with physical issues and concerns. That large women are somehow more presdisposed to be unaware of their limitations and try to do things which may injure themselves?

No, I don't think that. Did I really say that??? I thought I was saying that there could be a physical issue as well as/instead of the psycological issue of being insecure with your looks which was the only issue suggested in some previous posts.

If you are brand new to bellydancing and the teacher is very slim and fit and the rest of the students are as well, then maybe, just maybe there are things you think you can do that you actually shouldn't do even if all the other ones can do it?

Bodies have issues, whatever weight or size. And to imply that "fat people need a class for themselves to be safe, thin people don't need that kind of help" rubs me way the wrong way. People of all sizes have their own issues, and we can't create a special class for every issue. We just teach sfe technique, teach our students to be body aware and learn to get into their bodies to better utilize them...they don't need special help or attention no matter what their weight.*

(*Unless we are talking morbidly obese, which I have never had in any class I have ever taught or been in, so I can't speak to that.)

Somehow I have managed to offend people. Did I say anywhere that fat people should be turned away from ordinary class to go to fat people belly dance class? No way! It's offered just like any class for those who wish to take it (and I think here it's only beginner level).
FYI I'm pretty heavy myself at the moment and I manage just fine in ordinary BD class, though I was not this heavy when I started dancing.

I still think it is good that classes for larger women exist for those who choose it, as well as there are BD classes for pregnant women and post-birth women which offers movement and dance-excersise for their special needs.
When a dance teacher sees a lucrative business idea in "classes for extra thin people" or "only for redheads" then I guess those classes will come as well.

 

[TribalDancer]

What you said was quoted above in my message. You clearly said that you felt that overweight people needed to learn to "move in a soft and safe way and not being tempted into doing a backbend or deep knee bend without having the strength for it there would need to be a teacher with special knowledge in exercise for obese people or something."

Then you followed with "This is a group of people with a special need. What would be the physical special need for starting a class only for thin people???".

And I am simply saying that this is a gross overgeneralization--a stereotype--that only overweight people need to be careful with their bodies, and that somehow thin people have no special physical needs that must be met by an appropriate teacher. I was pointing out that I know plenty of "thin" people who push their limits beyond their abilities, who take from teachers who don't know how to teach things safely regardless of who is learning from them; and that overweight people are not the only ones with physical issues which may call for altering moves or skills to make it accessible to them. The implication that only overweight people would need access to such information, and this necessitates special "fat people classes", is what I found to be misinformed.

I am not offended I guess, so much as surprised and disappointed at the lumping of people together based on any single attribute, and in this case it is weight.

I wouldn't disparage overweight people who think they need to be among "others like them" to feel safe and comfortable. But it's because they are told again and again by society that they are lesser or weaker or "special needs". They are not empowered to believe in their own strength and abilities as valuable and equal, even if they are different in some way from what is idealized in our society. And for every class that pops up for "fat people", we are reinforcing that misconception that they need some special attention for their "weaknesses", and marginalizing those people even more. That is what I object to.

And again, I wanted to be clear that there are morbidly obese people who do have actual special needs, many of which have been diagnosed by doctors, and their exercise needs to be moderated by someone who is sensitive to those issues. But we weren't talking about that, from what I was reading up until now. What I was reading was more about women who have body issues who don't feel comfortable in a "thin person class", and I would hate to help create an even greater segregation between "fat" and "thin" by creating special separate classes, when one class by a good teacher--who encourages all her students to work at their own pace and find their own unique beauty and strength--would do.

 

[gisela]

And again, I wanted to be clear that there are morbidly obese people who do have actual special needs, many of which have been diagnosed by doctors, and their exercise needs to be moderated by someone who is sensitive to those issues.

Hello Tribaldancer,
I do agree with you in a lot of things you say. Maybe we have different views on what plus sized is. I think I was thinking of this group you are mentioning. You also stated that you have never seen any in your classes. Maybe that is why these special classes start. To reach some people that wouldn't otherwise excersise. I'm saying maybe, because I don't know, I'm guessing.

I'm also completely agreeing with that people of all sizes have body issues. Both physical and psycological. My point was that the single issue of being very heavy can have an influence on your body. I didn't think that being thin could be a physical problem in itself, unless being VERY underweight. For thin/medium weight persons then the body issues would have another reason than the weight, but this was my thought and I may not be right.

When I was out buying sneakers for running the shop-assistant adviced me to get shoes with extra cushioning soles, because he said I needed it to protect my body, being quite large. I was at first a little bit sad that he said that, but I also knew it already. That's why I went to him to get advice.
IMO this is kind of the same thing. If you know that you are not used to excersising, that your muscles are not trained or that you have problems with you knees, wouldn't you want to acknowledge that, to get the right training?

I don't know how to explain myself better without writing the same thing over and over. I do not recognize my opinions in what you write about me and would like to be able to answer better but I'm not able to, I think.