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Thread: BDSS Babelesque

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    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenc View Post
    Who are you calling arrogant............. they must be a very different GP in your part of the world, if they can tell the difference. You are fighting a losing battle if most of the dancers who post on here persist in calling things BD, that you insist that the GP knows are not.

    I can tell you that all my dance teachers call fusion and tribal bellydance, including the native egyptian. But of course, not being members of the GP, they wouldn't know what they are dancing would they........

    Do you think restaurant owners will ever advertise "Live American oriental performers" instead of bellydancers. Do you think you have the slightest hpe ever of YouTube, Britain's Got Talent, or the host of amateur dancers to drop the term bellydancing.

    you have to go with the flow and work out what you can achieve by education.

    I am one of the few people who still knows the difference between uninterestd and disinterested. I feel that the loss of the distinction between the 2 is a loss in clarification of meaning, but there is no point in my fighting it, the difference is lost to ordinary conversation and will soon be simply archaic. We move on we have to accept common usage.

    Same with bellydance as a term. If it's only you and yours who are making a distinction, (oh and I forgot your arab friends) it's time to move on and into the real world. go for something you've got a hope of winning.

    I think one of my teachers dances with a western style. She thinks she thinks she's going for authemtic egyptian. At what point would you say that she's bellydancing. Would it be possible to say, that for parts of a dance she's bellydancing and for other parts, she's not..... And what if some of us disagreed about which parts looked authentic.




    If you choose to think your audience is ignorant, then yes, I am calling you arrogant. No matter where the audience is in the world, we need to be aware that we never know who is in it and what they know. therefore, we treat them all as equals. Ballerinas go on the stage assuming that their audiences have some understanding and appreciation of their talents and what they are offering. I worked with Leonard Fowler for a few years and he was sure of it! Middle Eastern dancers need to learn to do the same thing, instead of assuming ignorance on the part of their audiences. If you can't do that, then you have already treated them with as little respect as possible, so why should they care about you? As for the rest of what you are saying, I have already explained the situation as it was 15 and even 10 and even 5 years ago in comparison to what it is now. I can see the progression and I can also see that many dancers ARE taking the responsibility to clearly define what they are doing for their audiences. this is a definite step in the right direction and I am not going to thumb my nose at it.
    There is no PART that LOOKS authentic. It is a thread that runs through every breath the dancer takes. Even less educated dancers can often spot it. It is not something that can be separated out.

  2. #22
    V.I.P. jenc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aisha Azar View Post
    If you choose to think your audience is ignorant, then yes, I am calling you arrogant. No matter where the audience is in the world, we need to be aware that we never know who is in it and what they know. therefore, we treat them all as equals.
    How dare you assume that I would patronise my audience. I can tell you that in my neck of the woods the dancers wouldn't know what you are talking about, let alone the audience. Of course should a Saudi wander into a Clacton Hafla, I am sure we wouldn't assume anything.

    My Egyptian teacher is happy to call what we do belllydance, even when she teaches us a routine to Shakira, but I suppose she doesn't count as she's not one of your arab friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aisha Azar View Post
    Ballerinas go on the stage assuming that their audiences have some understanding and appreciation of their talents and what they are offering. I worked with Leonard Fowler for a few years and he was sure of it! Middle Eastern dancers need to learn to do the same thing, instead of assuming ignorance on the part of their audiences. If you can't do that, then you have already treated them with as little respect as possible, so why should they care about you? As for the rest of what you are saying, I have already explained the situation as it was 15 and even 10 and even 5 years ago in comparison to what it is now. I can see the progression and I can also see that many dancers ARE taking the responsibility to clearly define what they are doing for their audiences. this is a definite step in the right direction and I am not going to thumb my nose at it.
    I am happy to see dancers define what they are doing for their audiences - but I thought you said that the GP knows the difference anyway. I REPEAT If dancers don't know the difference how do you expect the GP to know it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aisha Azar View Post
    There is no PART that LOOKS authentic. It is a thread that runs through every breath the dancer takes. Even less educated dancers can often spot it. It is not something that can be separated out.
    The vast majority of dancers, let alone audiences, or the GP have never seen anything approaching this standard of dance. are you likely to get them to call what they do anything other than bellydance.......... I don't think so. Even if they had seen the real thing they would still call what they do BD, because they aspire towards it. as they do not ever see it .

    you remind me of Humpty Dumpty

    'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' ...

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    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    We have yet to convince the vast majoirty of the GP over here(UK) that belly dancing aka Arabic dance, Egyptian dance, Turkish dance, danse orientale is anything other than low brow entertainment. A few of the arty crowd may come out of curiosity and then see it as otherwise.
    Presenting ME and North African folkloric dance to the GP might result it being elevated to the status of something cultural!
    Mass media footage has been Sophie Mei on Britains Got Talent..colourful, fun, glamorous and probably did little to elevate the dance up there with ballet and contemporary etc. But I hasten to say no harm done either. And again some exposure thanks to BDSS. I would say the GP saw bellydancing on a par with the slick showgirl and again no harm done there.
    Whatever my point the GP is ignorant about all the variety that is belly dance just as I am ignorant about say...football (soccer). To me it's 12 men kicking a ball about a bit of grass. I don't understand what makes a game or player great and don't bother trying to. That doesn't make me stupid no more than it makes a person who has had little or no exposure to belly dance.
    Ignorance is bliss they say but it isn't necessarily an insult..if it is I am inordinately stupid regarding golf and quantum physics.
    The best we can do in this country is put on put on interesting, informative and entertaining shows in local arts theatres that expose the dance as being worthy of being seen in a wider cultural celebration.
    This is not to decry the efforts of skilful restaurant and party dancers who go all out to be tasteful and classy.
    We will also always dance with a Western accent but we can still do justice to the technique and flavour of Egypt and Turkey and if we get the tuition Am Camb.
    Tribal well there's a scene that can fit in with street dancing and contemporary dance in festival and the like.

    To return to BDSS: I am afraid they appeal to an informed audience already in the BDscene and very few beyond that at this present time and I don't see much change. And that informed audience will either like or be disasatisfied.
    Those of us welded to Egyptian dance will only ever see them as second best to visting Egyptians but that isn't to say they are not welcome. I just hope the next show is a lot better than the one in Blackpool as I heard a lot of dancers saying they would support Raqs B as a workshop event but not the BDSSstage show

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    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenc View Post
    How dare you assume that I would patronise my audience. I can tell you that in my neck of the woods the dancers wouldn't know what you are talking about, let alone the audience. Of course should a Saudi wander into a Clacton Hafla, I am sure we wouldn't assume anything.
    And how dare YOU decide for all the other dancers n your neck of the woods whether or not they respect their audiences enough to give them a little credit. And quite frankly, you never know where Saudis, or Egyptians or Tunisians, or Iraqis, etc are going to wander. I have run into them in some very unlikely places. My living room for instance. And at least I have spent time listening to and talking with the natives for the last 34 years instead of just assuming they won;t show up. And I actually DO consider their input into their own dances and culture to be very important and worth reporting. I might also add that I am not talking 3 or 4 people here, but hundreds, but you would not want to do anything so rash as to try to give me any credit for taking the time to research first hand, would you? It's just so much more fun to be sarcastic about that instead of acknowledging it.

    My Egyptian teacher is happy to call what we do belllydance, even when she teaches us a routine to Shakira, but I suppose she doesn't count as she's not one of your arab friends.
    I have never seen your teacher and have no idea whether she counts or not,

    I am happy to see dancers define what they are doing for their audiences - but I thought you said that the GP knows the difference anyway. I REPEAT If dancers don't know the difference how do you expect the GP to know it.
    There is a difference, obviously to subtle for you to understand, between "assuming" the intelligence and knowledge of one's audience and relying on it or denying it. My dance company narrates every show we do so that the audience gets an education in dance. However, we do not ever say,"Well, they don;t know the difference anyway, so we can do whatever we please."

    The vast majority of dancers, let alone audiences, or the GP have never seen anything approaching this standard of dance. are you likely to get them to call what they do anything other than bellydance..
    And as I have said a million or so times, that is one of the very reasons why it is important to define clearly. However, in the process, if we assume the intelligence or our audiences, we can manage to keep ourselves honest with the dance and with each other.

    ........ I don't think so. Even if they had seen the real thing they would still call what they do BD, because they aspire towards it. as they do not ever see it .
    You never know. A few people are already doing so, and I think that number will grow. In fact I have seen it grow recently.



    you remind me of Humpty Dumpty
    Ummm, there's a well thought out,constructive remark.

    '
    When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' ...
    Yes, you tend to always fall back on scornful and sarcastic rather than try to carry on a civilized conversation. I even fall into the occasional trap of doing that myself when I talk to people like you.
    Last edited by Aisha Azar; 07-27-2008 at 04:18 PM.

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    V.I.P. Reen.Blom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenc View Post
    I REPEAT If dancers don't know the difference how do you expect the GP to know it.
    That's a great point, Jenc! This is so often the case.... Indeed most ppl think that bellydancer is a woman in skmpy outfit mocing hips to shakira...LOL

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    I'm not sure where I stand on this topic. I understand about the Gp perceptions. None of my friends have a clue what Raqs Sharki is when I tell them, and when I say Belly dance they tease me a bit for being a 'dark horse' and all that.

    But then again, I am always too scared to undermine the audience. I am one of these people that has to take into account every possibility. And so I'm never under prepared (unless it's for important things like uni stuff).

    I guess you have to find a balance. I think in Britain at least right now belly dancing is still seen as wiggling your hips in a two piece and not a lot more. At least from my experience. My ex still dunt get it and thinks I spend my time winking at other lads and smiling while shaking my boobs at them. But better to be prepared than not.

    My gram always said that the rabbit with many holes is less likely to get caught than the rabbit with just one.

    Btw- did I spell the show name right? I keep reading it as Babel-esque, as in the babel fish off Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.
    Last edited by Sara; 07-27-2008 at 10:33 PM.

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    V.I.P. Aziyade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sara View Post
    I'm not sure where I stand on this topic.
    Good, it means you're still considering all the possibilities.

    Of course, I will only speak for the Arabs and Turks I PERSONALLY have known, and I suppose you could always argue and say that they're lying to me or telling me what I want to hear, but what I have got from them over the years is this:

    "It's just dance."

    That is the overwhelming response to ANY of my questions about authenticity. Nashwa in KY likes Tribal. She thinks it's a more artistic way of representing bellydance (her words). Who am I to argue with an Egyptian? ;P

    Many of my Arab associates truly enjoy Rachel Brice, and none of them say she's not a belly dancer. (Although they all seem to hate her new costuming style.) Rachel doesn't really "do it" for me, but who am I to argue with Egyptians and Moroccans and Lebanese when it comes to how they define "belly dance" ? I have one friend who is INSANE over Suhaila -- even one particular performance that I'm not crazy about. He claims she "really feels the music; she really is a DANCER" (emphasis his).

    But 9.999 times out of 10, unless I'm talking to a musician, the Arab/Turkish people I'VE met don't care about "styles." They know it all as "belly dance" -- and they use THAT phrase -- not Raqs Sharqi, not Beledi. If I listen to a conversation in Arabic, a lot of times I will hear the phrase "Ra'issa" (dancer) but I've never heard any of them say "Raqs Sharqi." Of course, they're probably just censoring themselves around me because they want to tell me what I want to hear.


    What does the general public think is bellydance? Take your own informal poll. Ask the people you work with to define bellydance, demonstrate it, tell you where they would find it. In the US, most people would say you'd find it in Greek/Lebanese restaurants, because that's been the biggest venue for 30 years. They may imitate clapping finger cymbals, or pull a pretend veil over their eyes. This IS belly dance in the US. It's not "Raqs Sharqi" -- which I think 99% of us would define as the specifically Egyptian style of the general "Belly dance." And it's not Raqs Beledi. Or Shaabi. Or Schikhatt or the polka. It's BELLY DANCE.

    Are some fusion dancers becoming annoyed that hiphop-fusion artists are crossing over and calling it "belly dance" ? Well yes. But the pendulum is swinging, and right now it's on its farthest out-swing. Dancers are trying to make a name for themselves by trying to out-do one another in being "different." This will pass. The SAME thing happened/happens in modern dance and it happened in ballet after the years of the "superstars" in ABT and NYCB. The pendulum settles. This too shall pass...


    The BDSS are catering to their audience. The earlier shows were less fusion and more straight-up Cab and Tribal-fusion. The dancers in the audience didn't want that. They said so on Tribe, on Bhuz. They told Miles they wanted to see something DIFFERENT. So now they have more fusion/experimental pieces. If 75% of their feedback had been "show more ethnic dance" you can bet Miles would have more ethnic dance. But those people clamoring for more "ethnic dance" (like me) were in the minority. We were LOUD but we were still the minority.

    As for me:
    I adore Egyptian style especially the "golden age" style, and I'm really liking the weirdness I'm seeing coming from Randa. I'm not a huge fan of what Aida and Lubna were teaching in Texas. I'm not a big Raqia fan, either. I still love Sohair Zaki and I still can't stand most of what I've seen of Nagwa Fouad.

    I DO believe belly dance to be, at heart, a dance with ethnic roots, and I believe we SHOULD stay true to those roots -- but it's a matter of DEGREE. I don't think "American Cabaret" (or whatever we're calling it) is a FUSION dance, and I refuse to call it that. It's belly dance. I don't think tribal is a FUSION dance. It's belly dance, just stylized, and I'm going to call it belly dance. Tribal FUSION may be a fusion of Belly dance and something -- but I don't do or teach that so I don't usually comment on it.

    I believe there IS an essence, a spirit to the dance that defines what is Turkish dance and what is Egyptian dance, AND what is American Belly dance. I think the essence exists in the dancer's relationship to the music, and in her understanding of the folk roots of that music. When the dancer responds, viscerally, to the sound of the Qanoun, or the violin, or especially for Turkish dancers, the clarinet or mijwiz -- when you really GET that internalized, and you can't HELP but respond physically to what you're hearing -- THAT, THAT is the "Essence" that I believe makes it really "belly dance" and not just torso/hip articulations.

    your mileage may vary...


    Btw- did I spell the show name right? I keep reading it as Babel-esque, as in the babel fish off Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.
    Yep, Babel (Tower Of) from (Babylon) -- in this case meaning "Like the entertainment found in ancient Babylon."

    ( BTW - A gorgeous reconstruction of the Lion Gate of Babylon is featured in the otherwise lame film "Alexander." )

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    V.I.P. Aziyade's Avatar
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    As far as winning us over to his show, he really obviously cares less what we think. I know this as a result of discussing it with him for 4 hours straight. Dancers, he says have been giving him suggestions forever and he chooses to put on the show he is putting on in spite of that.
    He has been listening to the MAJORITY opinion, and the majority opinion (on Bhuz and Tribe) is they want more double veil spinning, fire, and fusion.

    You and I are part of the minority. I told him I wanted to see Ghawazee and Schikhatt. He said when he got 100 posts a day from dancers wanting to see that, he'd consider adding it. Again, we're a VOCAL minority, but we're still the minority. Just check out tribe, the message boards for the BDSS, and any of the facebook/myspace sites. I know the Copeland group certainly is!


    I said:
    I'd never really thought anything about the whole idea until I read the Desert Roses casting call email that everyone went NUTS over. INSTANT press. No money down. Controversy explodes and amidst all the craziness, I end up buying my first Hakim CD, introducing me to Miles's record label. Brilliant, really.
    And of course when one does a casting call they do it through the groups that have experience in the form they are doing. It does no good to do a casting call for belly dancers at the local tavern where they hire musicians, or at the ballet school.
    My point was that I bought a CD that I probably never would have, simply because I kept hearing all this buzz about Mondo Melodia and Ark 21. Heck, I drove over 4 hours to see the first show just because I kept hearing about it so much. I would NOT have done that, if people hadn't made such a huff about that one email.

    Brilliant, again. All press is good press when it sells tickets.

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    V.I.P. Maria_Aya's Avatar
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    Hi all
    I can give a new point of view to the whole thing about arabs and oriental dance as on Friday night I had a huge fight with a restaurant owner in Athens (he is egyptian).
    I went to his place with some friends from Egypt also, it was a mix company with dancers and egyptian community in Greece.
    The place had a "dancer" the girl was just dancing greek chifteteli in a bellydance costume.
    She was fun and polite and decent and a good greek chifteteli dancer.
    She danced 3 songs running around the tables, all the egyptians in my table was laughing at her, and asking me to stand up and dance.
    I didnt ofcourse, until she left the place.
    After there was a baladi and stood up and danced.
    And the owner came and he was saying aiwa this is dance blah bla bla.
    And i asked him, so why since this is dance you dont hire dancers that know how to dance?
    He said why? to pay more? I get girls for 30 euro per night !!!
    What happens is that THESE girls go out and think that they are master's since an EGYPTIAN hired them !!!!
    And we started fighting over this.
    Dont know about other countries but over here i havent heard the word bellydancer from an arab, its raqassa or raqs sharqi or baladi or saidi and this is it.
    Maybe because what doesnt fit in this category they call them "chifteteloudes" which come from the word chifteteli and they add the oudes like a bliah thing.
    Anyway I total agree with Aisha that we GOT to respect our audience if we want to be considered serious artists.
    About the BDSS for me its show bizz and it follows the rules of the business.

    Maria Aya, Greece

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    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
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    But 9.999 times out of 10, unless I'm talking to a musician, the Arab/Turkish people I'VE met don't care about "styles." They know it all as "belly dance" -- and they use THAT phrase -- not Raqs Sharqi, not Beledi. If I listen to a conversation in Arabic, a lot of times I will hear the phrase "Ra'issa" (dancer) but I've never heard any of them say "Raqs Sharqi." Of course, they're probably just censoring themselves around me because they want to tell me what I want to hear.

    You may be sarcastic about it, but often times, they WILL tell you what they think is the most polite thing, that being more what you want to hear than their honest opinion, unless you know them well. Most of the Arabs that I know are very clear that there is a big difference between what the Americans call "belly dance" and what they do. Yes, I'm such a bitch for even bringing that up. I would assume it is because it is what you do not want to hear.


    What does the general public think is bellydance? Take your own informal poll. Ask the people you work with to define bellydance, demonstrate it, tell you where they would find it. In the US, most people would say you'd find it in Greek/Lebanese restaurants, because that's been the biggest venue for 30 years. They may imitate clapping finger cymbals, or pull a pretend veil over their eyes. This IS belly dance in the US. It's not "Raqs Sharqi" -- which I think 99% of us would define as the specifically Egyptian style of the general "Belly dance." And it's not Raqs Beledi. Or Shaabi. Or Schikhatt or the polka. It's BELLY DANCE.
    The issue is and always has been that they, for the most part, think what they are seeing is authentic belly dance from Middle Eastern countries, whether or not they have any more than a vague Orientalist view of what that might be. Its easy enough to ask people "Where does belly dance come from?" and they answer usually that it comes from "Arabia", or Turkey or sometimes India. (I took that poll years ago.) They never say America, oddly enough..... Some people know a little more abut it and say Egypt or Lebanon, or talk about when they were living in a country of origin and used to go and see the dancers

    Are some fusion dancers becoming annoyed that hiphop-fusion artists are crossing over and calling it "belly dance" ? Well yes. But the pendulum is swinging, and right now it's on its farthest out-swing. Dancers are trying to make a name for themselves by trying to out-do one another in being "different." This will pass. The SAME thing happened/happens in modern dance and it happened in ballet after the years of the "superstars" in ABT and NYCB. The pendulum settles. This too shall pass...
    It may or may not pass without some help from dancers. I have watched it get continuously worse for the last 30 some years...

    The BDSS are catering to their audience. The earlier shows were less fusion and more straight-up Cab and Tribal-fusion. The dancers in the audience didn't want that. They said so on Tribe, on Bhuz. They told Miles they wanted to see something DIFFERENT. So now they have more fusion/experimental pieces. If 75% of their feedback had been "show more ethnic dance" you can bet Miles would have more ethnic dance. But those people clamoring for more "ethnic dance" (like me) were in the minority. We were LOUD but we were still the minority.

    Having spoken to him at length when he was a little tipsy, I got an entirely different story. He refuses to do any folkloric, he says because he doesn't want that kind of show. It has nothing to do with what anyone wants or does not want. He has stated repeatedly that he is interested in the general public, (not belly dancers) as his target audience. Instead, he is getting the same niche market that we all draw.... namely dancers.

    As for me:
    I adore Egyptian style especially the "golden age" style, and I'm really liking the weirdness I'm seeing coming from Randa. I'm not a huge fan of what Aida and Lubna were teaching in Texas. I'm not a big Raqia fan, either. I still love Sohair Zaki and I still can't stand most of what I've seen of Nagwa Fouad.

    I don;t love every Egyptian dancer, either, but even in those I don;t like, such as Nagwa fouad, I can still see that cultural spirit and essence shining through. That is what makes the dance what it is, not a set of movements alone.

    I DO believe belly dance to be, at heart, a dance with ethnic roots, and I believe we SHOULD stay true to those roots -- but it's a matter of DEGREE. I don't think "American Cabaret" (or whatever we're calling it) is a FUSION dance, and I refuse to call it that.
    Refusing to call it what it is does not change its nature, and it is indeed fusion. It's essence, the approach to how to execute movements, the mishmosh of musical input, the costumes even, are all a fusion of west and east, and there is no pure cultural essence except one, and that is purely American. Why is it not belly dance? Because belly dance has a meaning to the general public, and to people from countries of origin, that means those specific dances, with those specific cultural essences, not something created in California.

    It's belly dance. I don't think tribal is a FUSION dance. It's belly dance, just stylized, and I'm going to call it belly dance. Tribal FUSION may be a fusion of Belly dance and something -- but I don't do or teach that so I don't usually comment on it.
    American Tribal is all about fusion and its meaning and essence is far removed from anything of Middle Eastern belly dance.

    I believe there IS an essence, a spirit to the dance that defines what is Turkish dance and what is Egyptian dance, AND what is American Belly dance.
    Yes, and the essence of American Oreintal is very different from that of authetnic ethnic belly dance. It is purely American. Belly dance is not an American dance.


    I think the essence exists in the dancer's relationship to the music, and in her understanding of the folk roots of that music. When the dancer responds, viscerally, to the sound of the Qanoun, or the violin, or especially for Turkish dancers, the clarinet or mijwiz -- when you really GET that internalized, and you can't HELP but respond physically to what you're hearing -- THAT, THAT is the "Essence" that I believe makes it really "belly dance" and not just torso/hip articulations.
    You did not even mention cultural spirit, essence and feeling as part of the dance itself, yet these are the strongest elements that define the dance.

    Regards,
    A'isha

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