BDSS Babelesque

[Aisha Azar]

dance

Not if they have a non-Argentinian "accent" I guess.

Speaking of Argentinians -- do you guys all know Saida? She did the dvds with Mario Kirlis? WOW! That was a serious Superstar. Too bad she was only with them for a season or so... Talk about audience connection! Sigh. I thought "this girl could fall down a flight of stairs and make it look like art, effortless and graceful."

You can make light of it, make fun of it all you want. The fact that we can't define our own dances is one of the reasons why people in other dance genres do not take us very seriously. Why should they when we ourselves don't appear to the outside world to know what we are doing much of the time. When everything is labeled "belly dance" it makes us ALL appear to be people who don't know what in heck we are doing. I find that less than amusing. In fact, I find it tragic.

 

[Reen.Blom]

I am not making fun of it. I just genuinly belive that Belly dance is much more than Egytian style. Maybe you cant call what is done all over Europe as Raqs Sharki, but IMHO it is belly dance.

*hugs*

reen.blom

 

[Aisha Azar]

I am not making fun of it. I just genuinly belive that Belly dance is much more than Egytian style. Maybe you cant call what is done all over Europe as Raqs Sharki, but IMHO it is belly dance.

*hugs*

reen.blom

Dear Reen,
WHY do people keep saying the only style I recognize as belly dance is Egyptian? I have said repeatedly that I also see Lebanese and Turkish as belly dance as well. I do not, however, see something that is totally lacking in the essences of the Middle East as "belly dance" and see no reason why anyone would. What makes all the rest of belly dance in your mind? Where do you draw the line? What qualities and elements does the dance have to have for you to call it bellydance? This is one of the things that constantly flummoxes me ( if that is a word!!). At the very least,I have a clear, workable idea of what is and is not belly dance, when so many people do not seem to. Yet they they feel they have the right to get very critical of my definitions.... and mostly they just accuse me of thinking only Egyptian style is belly dance! I sincerely have great respect for much of what is being done out there, but to call it belly dance when that word means what it means to the general public, is misleading at best and harmful to the dance at worst, as more crazy stuff gets added beneath the umbrella. Westernized styles do not capture the cultural essence of what belly dance is.
Rgards,
A'isha

 

[karena]

I feel like I'm jumping into the lions' den here, but I am asking a genuine question to explore this, so please take it in this spirit.

I'm interested in the ballet analogy. Can people outside of Europe (and we'll add in north America to overcome that problem) do ballet? Or does it then become something else if it lacks the western essence?

Interestingly, I looked on wikipedia (the source of all my knowledge ) to see the origins etc of ballet, and it's interesting that it talks about classical, neoclassical, modern and post structural forms, and developments, changes and splits in the dance form. So is there really one ballet?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

I feel like I'm jumping into the lions' den here, but I am asking a genuine question to explore this, so please take it in this spirit.

I'm interested in the ballet analogy. Can people outside of Europe (and we'll add in north America to overcome that problem) do ballet? Or does it then become something else if it lacks the western essence?

Interestingly, I looked on wikipedia (the source of all my knowledge ) to see the origins etc of ballet, and it's interesting that it talks about classical, neoclassical, modern and post structural forms, and developments, changes and splits in the dance form. So is there really one ballet?

Dear Karena,
Yeah, I often feel like I am in the Lion's Den myself!! I think your question is quite meaningful to the conversation.
There is certainly more than one belly dance, and each ethnic style has its own specific essence. This is one reason why we are able to identify Turkish from Lebanese from Egyptian. It is because of that spirit and essence imprints the style, regardless of what movement set the dancer uses, what kind of music she uses exactly, or what she is wearing. There is always a muddy overlap when it comes to movement, but the cultural essence of the dance is there to the core.
I think there actually IS more than one ballet style. I do not remember much about it since ballet is not my field and was only his costumer, but I worked with Leonard Fowler in the 80s and he discussed ballet as if there was more than one style. I can not say anything other than that I know there is as specific Russian style. I can't tell you anything more, but there are a lot of people here who studied ballet and they might.
You would be laughed off the ballet stage if you tried to pull some of the shenannigans that belly dancers have allowed. this does not mean that we should not experiment, but that development and experimentation should take place within the cultural boundaries of what the dance is. You learn those boundaries by studying the distinct ethnic styles to death. I am qualified to speak in depth about Egyptian belly dance, but I am not the person to talk with for Lebanese or Turkish. I have studied these styles off and on for 34 years, but I have no expertise in either style. I have studied Egyptian belly dance in depth for most of that time and I still study.
As to whether or not people outside of a Middle Easterner heritage can perform belly dance without westernizing it, yes, some can. I also feel that the Middle East and the West have a different approach as to how to make dance happen, so I can not really respond to the question of ballet still being ballet if it loses its essence. From what I can tell, western concepts in dance are so very different from Middle Eastern ones....Take Fifi Abdou for example. She claims to have taught herself to belly dance. I have never met a single ballerina who says she is self taught. Not even amateurs There are many other native belly dancers who claim the same, yet they all have that cultural essence. Right there we already see a parting of the ways in which dance is thought of and about its continuance.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[karena]

I also feel that the Middle East and the West have a different approach as to how to make dance happen, so I can not really respond to the question of ballet still being ballet if it loses its essence. From what I can tell, western concepts in dance are so very different from Middle Eastern ones.

I'm glad you said that - I have been mulling over the issue of transferring western values in terms of the way the dance is seen, as in all the stuff surrounding it, not the dance itself. So this is more food for mull.

 

[teela]

I have given a lot of thought to this. I think the big issue in regard to the discussion is the having grown up with it vs learning it at an older age. If you had grown up with middle eastern dance, you would have learned the version your family did, you would just accept it as normal and do it. When you grow up with it, you don't think about adding this or that neat step you found in some other form of dance. If you learn it when you are older, you usually bring in your musicality. For me I am slowly getting past the count it all out. I also play several instruments, so I brought in the count and think in terms of beats and such. There seems to be the instinctual reaction to the music that is much harder for me to learn but I'll make it. It seems to be more of a different culture idea that we can take various moves and incorporate them into something. I've heard it said when you grow up with the middle eastern dance, it often can tell others where you are from. I don't know how true it is because I am not an authority on middle eastern dance. We all have our definitions of what constitutes acceptable belly dance and based on mine, I don't think I'll ever go see BDSS because it has more types of dance that I do not classify as belly dance based on my own definition and comfort levels.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I feel like I'm jumping into the lions' den here, but I am asking a genuine question to explore this, so please take it in this spirit.

I'm interested in the ballet analogy. Can people outside of Europe (and we'll add in north America to overcome that problem) do ballet? Or does it then become something else if it lacks the western essence?

Interestingly, I looked on wikipedia (the source of all my knowledge ) to see the origins etc of ballet, and it's interesting that it talks about classical, neoclassical, modern and post structural forms, and developments, changes and splits in the dance form. So is there really one ballet?

A closer analogy to ballet would be Tribal style belly dance, because ballet is about stylized movement.

There is the big heading "ballet" but that covers everything from Nutcracker and Storybook ballets, to vaudeville toe tap, to contemporary dance based on intellectual ideas (which is closer to "Modern" dance, but still considered ballet) to HIGHLY experimental work that you might not recognize if you're used to looking at Nutcrackers

In the late 90s, "Shenanigans" of extremely experimental work was the trend in the very urban companies. Ballet's been around for SO long that you can expect choreographers to be bored of the same-old same-old and want to break out of that.

As for the cultural essence, ballet does not contain a cultural essence (at least in the last 200 years of it) because it's a stylized form of movement. You have to keep in mind the ballet of 300 years ago is not really the same ballet of 200 years ago, and ballet really changed yet again in the 1940's or so, and the characteristic "ballet" now is what evolved in the 40s.

Ballet is not even really a physical response to MUSIC, which seems weird -- especially to belly dancers who are used to Hossam Ramzy's advice. The music and the dance come together to create a whole picture, but you don't always actually dance WITH the music. The old joke is "dance is what happens between the steps" but in a lot of ballet, that's totally true!

Culturally, ballet belongs to everybody, despite its origins. The National Ballet of China has, over the last 10 years, "reclaimed" some of the most popular storybook ballets (like Copellia and Swan Lake) and reinterpreted them to tell stories in the typical Chinese fashion, and through the Chinese cultural filter. If you can find "The Red Detachment of Women" on video, it's a FANTASTIC example of the fusion of Chinese history/culture and the "western" art form of ballet.

There are various "styles" of ballet, but they aren't really styles of dance so much as styles of SCHOOLS or styles of training. The most prominent in the US are the Italian School (Cecchetti), the Russian school (Vaganova) and Balanchine's school, which is based on Vaganova technique. (The English have RAD technique, the Dutch have their own, and supposedly there was a German offshoot of RAD that was popular there.)

Each school teaches a slightly different way to do a movement. (like, when starting a pirouette, is the back leg straight or bent, and to what degree. Where is the beginning of the weight shift, in front or back of the pelvis. Etc.) Because the technique is slightly different, the dancers in each technique have a slightly different look.

Now there are performance "Styles" inside each technical school as well. The best example of this was, before the fall of the USSR, the diff between Kirov ballet style and Bolshoi style. Kirov was more "lyrical" in performance, and Bolshoi was more physical and technical. (I think I have the distinctions attributed right. It's been a while!) The diff between ABT and NYCB was noticeable in the 80s (the Baryshnikov years). But I think 99% of that is the AD and the choreographers.

Ballet isn't self-taught because it has developed into a stylized system of very complicated and extensive long-term training. You can be a self-taught country or contra dancer, and you can teach yourself the court dances and figure forms upon which ballet was based originally, but modern formal ballet is so far removed from those self-teachable roots that it's a different art form altogether.

Belly dance has not developed into that same stylized system. Not yet. Therefore it is still possible to be self-taught, especially if you're talking about the social dance form.

As more Arab dancers get more extensive dance training (in whatever form), I think you will see Raqs Sharqi becoming something a little "harder" for the general public to just pick up by observation. You can see the beginnings of this in the dancers now, if you look with a critical eye. They might DECIDE to take the social dance in a much more stylized and stage-designed fashion, or they may bring it back to a more "homegrown" level. Who's the designer -- is it Eman Zaki? Used to be a dancer and now makes costumes? She had said she hoped the Egyptians would adopt a more technical approach to both presenting and teaching the dance. I guess future Ahlan Wa Sahlans will tell us how this plays out...

So short answer is that ballet doesn't have and isn't supposed to have a "western" accent, although it approaches music and movement from a western perspective. It's completely unlike Belly dance in that way. You can't look at Kirov and say "oh that's so representative of the Russian culture, or the Latvian culture" or whatever. There are Russian and Latvian folk dances that do that.

 

[gypsy8522]

I feel like I'm jumping into the lions' den here, but I am asking a genuine question to explore this, so please take it in this spirit.

I'm interested in the ballet analogy. Can people outside of Europe (and we'll add in north America to overcome that problem) do ballet? Or does it then become something else if it lacks the western essence?

That's an interesting question. I always wondered why the soloists in the Egyptian opera house ballet are either Russian or Eastern European, it seems whenever I look at the names on the program it is always Olga, Ivanova, Oksana etc... Since most of it, if not all, is soley based on technical ability, Egyptians should have no problems getting it. There's only one Egyptian soloist in that company whom I liked, her name is Nadine.. the rest always look so uptight and stiff (and may I say boring?) for some reason.

 

[TribalDancer]

American Tribal is all about fusion and its meaning and essence is far removed from anything of Middle Eastern belly dance.

Regards,
A'isha

I have to pop up and agree on this one point (not sticking my foot in the other points . ATS/Tribal is a fusion dance. It is a fusion BELLYDANCE. Of course that is where A'isha and I diverge in opinion on this--I still believe it is bellydance, but a fused and tweaked version of it. Any tribal dancer worth her salt will be able to talk about the dance and movement and its origins. "The move Ghawazee is literally taken from the nomadic Ghawazee dancers of Egypt. The wide swinging hips were derived largely from the clothing worn at the time--if you have very voluminous clothing on, the only movement you would be able to see would be big movement. The Re-Shamka is a move derived from Indian dance. The movement was passed down from Megha of Devyani, from her Indian dance teacher. The exuberant hip movement is reminiscent of bellydance hip bumps, and the arms flowing up overhead evokes the uplifted movement that is common to ATS vocabulary..."

Etc...

If you can't talk about where the move came from, even if you say "I saw it in an Aisha Ali dance video and really liked it. It's a North African movement, and the earthiness of the footwork really drew a parallel for me with tribal..." then don't do it. If you are doing fusion you have to have some idea of what you are fusing and why.

That is all from me on that!:dance:

 

[TribalDancer]

Belly dance has not developed into that same stylized system. Not yet. Therefore it is still possible to be self-taught, especially if you're talking about the social dance form.

Isn't that a telling phrase right there? I loved all your history there, Aziyade, and so appreciate it! But this line right here really struck me...

Bellydance HAS a social dance component. What other dance forms, which we constantly compare ourselves to, have that? When was the last time you saw a group of people bust out into a ballet dance-off in a nightclub? How about a little lyrical dancing at your family gathering (well, maybe your family but not mine!)? How many people hire tap dancers to entertain them at weddings?

There is that social dance/ethnic dance component to bellydance which separates it from the western dances we so often compare ourselves to. We ask 'Why won't the GP take us seriously?' and yet, there is a very integral social/casual facet to the dance roots that makes it a very different animal...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

I have to pop up and agree on this one point (not sticking my foot in the other points . ATS/Tribal is a fusion dance. It is a fusion BELLYDANCE. Of course that is where A'isha and I diverge in opinion on this--I still believe it is bellydance, but a fused and tweaked version of it. Any tribal dancer worth her salt will be able to talk about the dance and movement and its origins. "The move Ghawazee is literally taken from the nomadic Ghawazee dancers of Egypt. The wide swinging hips were derived largely from the clothing worn at the time--if you have very voluminous clothing on, the only movement you would be able to see would be big movement. The Re-Shamka is a move derived from Indian dance. The movement was passed down from Megha of Devyani, from her Indian dance teacher. The exuberant hip movement is reminiscent of bellydance hip bumps, and the arms flowing up overhead evokes the uplifted movement that is common to ATS vocabulary..."

Etc...

If you can't talk about where the move came from, even if you say "I saw it in an Aisha Ali dance video and really liked it. It's a North African movement, and the earthiness of the footwork really drew a parallel for me with tribal..." then don't do it. If you are doing fusion you have to have some idea of what you are fusing and why.

That is all from me on that!:dance:

Dear Sharon,
This is partly what I mean about the difference between the Western and Middle Eastern approach to the dance. Here, you exemplify the things that make Tribal akin to Middle Eastern as a movement in common with the Ghawazi.
The Middle Eastern approach is more in line with thinking the movement itself has only a partial meaning in the dance instead of being THE thing. The Middle Eastern dancer seems to think something more along the lines of "the music makes me respond with this general kind of movement", as opposed to thinking in terms of the movement alone, or the precise, perfect, technically out of human range movement.
In the West it seems to have become so much about movement that every other element of the dance is eating the dust. Not only that, but movement is ubiquitous and and many movements that we refer to as "belly dance: movement, can be seen in dances all around the world. They are not "belly dance" movement unless other dance criteria are met. I hope that makes sense.

Another thing that makes the dances very different is that belly dance is a solo performance art where Tribal seems to be based in a community participation on the physical level. Belly dance as a professional art form is a solo dance and the audience participation comes on the level of observer and responder rather than as participant. This in itself distinguishes the feelings, essences, and spirit of the dance forms from one another.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

That's an interesting question. I always wondered why the soloists in the Egyptian opera house ballet are either Russian or Eastern European, it seems whenever I look at the names on the program it is always Olga, Ivanova, Oksana etc... Since most of it, if not all, is soley based on technical ability, Egyptians should have no problems getting it. There's only one Egyptian soloist in that company whom I liked, her name is Nadine.. the rest always look so uptight and stiff (and may I say boring?) for some reason.

The fall of the Soviet Union sent a lot of dancers scrambling for jobs elsewhere. Up to that point, the government itself paid the salaries of the dancers, choreographers, directors, etc. (As opposed to in the United States, where the city ballets are businesses, and rely on feeder school tuition, fund-raisers and limited government arts grants to pay the bills.)

Soviet ballet dancers were among the highest paid in the world in the 80s and didn't have to rely on artists' unions to negotiate their contracts (assuming that wasn't all government propaganda.) Their feeder/training schools were EXTREMELY selective because they had a HUGE pool of dancers from all the countries in the USSR to choose from. Thus they became known as having the best training, and in the US there is definitely still a prejudice TOWARDS having a former Soviet dancer in your company or school. (Whether that prejudice is warranted or not is a matter of great debate.)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

This is what I don't get about you. This is where I think you are being a tad arrogant. You assume quite a bit about anyone who says "in my experience" and proceeds to tell you something that doesn't fit your theories or is something YOU don't want to hear.

I thought I responded to this yesterday, but don't see my response so here goes. Aren't you getting just a bit nasty here for no good reason?

How do you know HOW WELL I know the people of whom I speak? You don't know me. You've never been to my area of the country, and yet you presume to tell me what the Arabs around me are thinking. Or you tell me that they're lying to me to be polite. You are not privy to our conversations. You can't tell me WHAT they mean or don't mean.

I don't... and never have claimed to. I respond in generalizations, which is all any of us can do when we do not personally know the people involved. If YOU take it to mean you personally, then you are reading me incorrectly. However, there are certain social ways of dealing with things that hold true as a very broad and usually accurate statement when dealing with any culture. It is true among Arabs that because of their own cultural and social rules about being polite, they often do not tell you , or me, or anyone what they really think until they have established a trust relationship. In many of the countries where they live, this is not just about being polite, it is also about being very careful, and it is deeply ingrained. YOU may consider it lying; I do not. YOU may or may not have established these kinds of relationships. i do not know and speak only in generalizations, as I have stated before, so why you take this as a personal affront, I do not know. I have taken the pains to see the reasoning behind this kind of social behavior and find it is sensible. If you consider it arrogant to have an understanding of it, so be it.

Perhaps I should give you an example and write out what has been said about an instructional video produced by one of the members of this forum?

I don't know what this above means....



Yes I did. You chose to miss it.

NO, you talked about essence as a thing that spans all cultures in the same way and that is not the case. Otherwise we would not be able to see the difference between one dance form and another that uses the same movement families. You relegated essence to the rile of human feeling only, which it is not. I coined the term in its descriptive role in discussing Middle Eastern dance and that is how I know its meaning. The only person who seems to ever remember that is Andrea Deagon who has credited me once or twice when talking about essence. In all fairness you may not have been dancing then unless you have been dancing for about 20 years or so.

Maria, I know your story well! I've seen a few young restaurant dancers that I've thought needed to go back to class for a few years! And two Greek restaurants in the Midwest have complained that they can't get a tsiftitelli dancer -- that they keep getting Belly dancers!

So then, it would appear that it is not all the same thing to people who's dances these are.

Around here, the general feeling is that Egyptian style doesn't belong in restaurants, and the dancers of that style sort of have an "attitude" about that. It's not that they're "too good" for restaurants, but they don't feel that a restaurant is the appropriate venue for Egyptian dance. I tend to agree, but I don't see a whole lot of opportunities outside of the restaurant industry here. of course, I don't see a WHOLE lot of difference between a Casino boat and a restaurant, but I guess it's a subtle difference.

I wonder why they feel that way....I am an Egyptian dancer and I have danced in both clubs and restaurants and done occasional shows on cruise boats as well. I danced for a couple of years at one Arab owned restaurant alongside American belly dancers. Guess who they hired for all the Arab parties? They can and do distinguish the differences between the styles. I also danced as the featured dancer for 12 years at a different Arab owned restaurant. I have also danced in both Arab and Greek clubs in Seattle. I am too old now for both scenes, but there was certainly a preference for Egyptian dancers in those locations in the Northwest.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Belly dance as a professional art form is a solo dance and the audience participation comes on the level of observer and responder rather than as participant.

Actually, I was just reading the articles in Arabesque (1976 starting in Jan-feb issue) about Badia Massabni, and Badia's "Casino Opera" dancers were essentially a chorus line. They all danced together for some of the show, and then individual soloists would come forward and dance.

This is consistent with the article in Aramcoworld:
"In the early days, they did not appear singly but in a kind of chorus line, with Miss Badia in the front singing, clapping the sagat and occasionally dancing herself. Those who had particular talent made it to the front row and eventually stardom. Miss Gamal, as a child, used to perform western dances with her mother at Casino Opera. One night she found herself alone on stage and, overcoming her initial fright, began belly dancing. "Miss Badia was so happy that when I finished she came on stage, kissed me and gave me ten Egyptian pounds, a fortune in those days," Miss Gamal recalls."

Saudi Aramco World : La Danse du Ventre


So it started out on stage as a group dance. I keep trying to figure out from the pictures if the folk version of belly dance (before it got put on the stage) was done in groups or mostly singularly. The pictures seem to be about half-and-half. I know Andrea has said it was a solo dance, so I'm wondering f the other "dancers" pictured in so many drawings and paintings are just supplementary musicians, "set dressing," or if they were "partners" -- like the Ghawazee, who seem to (at least back in the day) perform in groups, but usually only 2 or 3 dance at once.


P.S.
Something I didn't realize until I had one of the extant "ads" for the Casino Opera translated was that Badia had actually opened a school there, which lasted at least until 1950 (she billed it as the first of its kind -- I don't know if she meant first dance school in general or first belly dance school.)

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Let me give you this link so you know what I'm talking about:
NS Enterprises

On either Randa's or Diana's dvd, (can't remember which one right now) she starts off demonstrating the "folk" step and then shows how you do it "in Oriental style." The overtone of the technique part of this dvd is that there are 2 ways to dance -- 1. At a party with friends and 2. On stage as a paid performer.

This is consistent with what Shareen el Safy has taught -- that there is a social dance step, and an "Orientalized" version of the same. (Where a folk/social version would include a bigger twist/pivot or something in place, the more "Oriental" version would be more upright, lifted, possibly traveling, and usually smaller.

(The word "Oriental" is the word used by both of the above teachers -- it's not my word choice.)

Bellydance HAS a social dance component.

Oh, I don't doubt that at all! That's what I think the above instructors are referring to when they talk about the folk or folkloric dance. (I asked Shareen if she was talking about Reda-style, and she said no.) I have social danced with the Lebanese and Turkish kids at our University and the Moroccan people I work with now. It's definitely a fun -- and pretty easy -- social dance, and the goal of the whole night is to just have fun. I LOVE dancing with the Lebanese boys! They were the first ones to teach me how to teach the "Basic Egyptian" (step and hip lift or hip twist) by telling me " you say this: "step forward and with the other foot you squish a bug." "

But they also insist that belly dance on stage is a different dance. They seem to think there's a lot of ballet involved. I don't argue.

What other dance forms, which we constantly compare ourselves to, have that?

The only thing I can think of is hip-hop or breakdancing, both of which are starting to develop a technique-based method of learning. ???

I mean, Irish step dance a la Riverdance comes from Irish folk dance, yes? I've only done a little Irish, but some of the "footwork" reminded me of my pitiful attempt to master Colin Dunne's video on "how to learn riverdance dancing" or whatever it was called. Modern step is stylized folk, at least as I understand it.

But I think I'm missing your point!

There is that social dance/ethnic dance component to bellydance which separates it from the western dances we so often compare ourselves to. We ask 'Why won't the GP take us seriously?' and yet, there is a very integral social/casual facet to the dance roots that makes it a very different animal...

Wait - are we agreeing that there are sort of two different forms o' belly dance or did I miss something?


But it's really unfair to compare social/folk dance to ballet, because you will never see a ballet dancer break out in a "folk section" because that has through the years been considered "beneath" the art form. Character pieces are as close as you'll get, and that's still ballet with a couple of different traveling steps. The earliest codifiers wanted to make it more complicated than regular old set dancing. (which even the court nobles could master.)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

Actually, I was just reading the articles in Arabesque (1976 starting in Jan-feb issue) about Badia Massabni, and Badia's "Casino Opera" dancers were essentially a chorus line. They all danced together for some of the show, and then individual soloists would come forward and dance.

This is consistent with the article in Aramcoworld:
"In the early days, they did not appear singly but in a kind of chorus line, with Miss Badia in the front singing, clapping the sagat and occasionally dancing herself. Those who had particular talent made it to the front row and eventually stardom. Miss Gamal, as a child, used to perform western dances with her mother at Casino Opera. One night she found herself alone on stage and, overcoming her initial fright, began belly dancing. "Miss Badia was so happy that when I finished she came on stage, kissed me and gave me ten Egyptian pounds, a fortune in those days," Miss Gamal recalls."

[

url=http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197105/la.danse.du.ventre.htm]Saudi Aramco World : La Danse du Ventre[/url]

Actually, I am reading notes on that subject myself right now as I am presenting a history of belly dance to a Sci-fi convention this week-end. They also did solo work according to the info in the Belly Dance museum, among other places and its clear in watching old movies where there might be a chorus line, but there is also a prima dancer. I started receiving Aramco back to 1979,and have a copy of that article as well that I sent for separately. I should soon be receiving a Disc from Aramco with back issues of some sort on it and hope this is one of them. That article also claims that Nadia Gamal credits the Phoenicians with inventing belly dance.

So it started out on stage as a group dance. I keep trying to figure out from the pictures if the folk version of belly dance (before it got put on the stage) was done in groups or mostly singularly.

I am not sure that there was a folk version of belly dance as such. I do believe it was developed from the beginning to be an entertainment and shaabi versions followed. However, I also think it was very much influenced by the fundamental movements of dances that we call Ghawazi, Beledi, Saidi, and the dances and other skills of the Elmehs. While Ghawazi and Al,eh might always signify professional entertainment, Beledi and Saidi do not and sometimes mean party dancing.

The pictures seem to be about half-and-half. I know Andrea has said it was a solo dance, so I'm wondering f the other "dancers" pictured in so many drawings and paintings are just supplementary musicians, "set dressing," or if they were "partners" -- like the Ghawazee, who seem to (at least back in the day) perform in groups, but usually only 2 or 3 dance at once.

I think Ghawazi, according to people like Flaubert at least was done both solo and in groups, though mostly I have seen video of them in duets or trios. The nature of the dance is very different than belly dance in some ways as it is a communal form, more. Also, the fact that they seem to perform for hours, hours and hours, might be one of the reasons that it developed that way.

P.S.
Something I didn't realize until I had one of the extant "ads" for the Casino Opera translated was that Badia had actually opened a school there, which lasted at least until 1950 (she billed it as the first of its kind -- I don't know if she meant first dance school in general or first belly dance school.)

Jodette spoke of the school and I have read about it in several places. She gets a bad rap, but a lot of her info turns out to be real when further study is done. Masabni had to train her dances in the new form as well teach choreographies. All the most famous dancers seemed to add their own improvisational skills so the dance. Tahia Carioca is very famous for adding samba to her opening numbers, implying very much that she was dancing solo. She was there in the 1930s at the Casino Opera The main thing is that the dance always retained the cultural essence, no matter what was thrown onto it, just as happens now in countries of origin.

 

[cathy]

On either Randa's or Diana's dvd, (can't remember which one right now) she starts off demonstrating the "folk" step and then shows how you do it "in Oriental style." The overtone of the technique part of this dvd is that there are 2 ways to dance -- 1. At a party with friends and 2. On stage as a paid performer.

This is consistent with what Shareen el Safy has taught -- that there is a social dance step, and an "Orientalized" version of the same. (Where a folk/social version would include a bigger twist/pivot or something in place, the more "Oriental" version would be more upright, lifted, possibly traveling, and usually smaller.

(The word "Oriental" is the word used by both of the above teachers -- it's not my word choice.)

Hi Aziyade,

In a seminar I took from Raqia Hassan about 15 months ago, she also specifically demonstrated two versions of the same movement and specifically identified one way of doing it as "folk" and the other way of doing it as "oriental."

Also, I most definitely think that Raks Sharki or Oriental dance (which I consider to be the best word in English for this dance, as you know!) has a corresponding social or folk form or style that was done before Badia Masabni and is still done by men, women, and children today--Raks Beledi. It's all Raks.

And as to whether any other dance forms have a social equivalent--what about ballroom dances? Dinner-dance-waltz & foxtrot might be going more the classroom and competition route now compared to say the 1960s, but the old tradition of girls learning from their dads isn't dead yet. This seems an apt comparison to me also in that I might be terrible at the waltz (true) but when I do the waltz to 3/4 time music, and when the winner of the international competition in waltz do it, we are doing the same dance, just one really very haltingly and amateurishly, and the other very polished and professional.



Just my two cents.

Cathy

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

In conclusion

What I think keeps getting lost is that all of us on this board understand the importance of studying the originating cultures, dances, and music in depth. Nobody is advocating ignoring the cultural "essence" altogether. Those of us who have "cross-trained" in Persian dance or Central Asian dance or Flamenco, or West African dance can see the contributions and influences of all these dances on one another. We see how they differ and how they are built around different rhythms. We all understand this.

One of the biggest sticking points for us is defining "bellydance" period. I think the vast majority of the dancers in the world would consider me a belly dancer, even though I'm sure I dance with a distinctly American accent. For those who don't think I'm a belly dancer -- it's a free country. Change the channel. You each have to decide for yourself at what point you maintain the cultural "essence" while still dancing like YOU. (I really recommend reading what Ibrahim (Bobby) Farrah has to say on the matter. Whether you like his choreography or not, he's a very well-spoken person who has some VERY interesting things to say about making art out of ethnic dance.)

There are SO many more resources out there now than were available when my teacher started dancing in the 60s. There seems to be MORE of a demand for information on ethnic dance than there ever has been. There is more scholarly information about it, more actual field recordings, more videos, more 1st hand accounts -- more of everything. Including fusion. But it's not hard anymore to find good sources for whatever you want.


As for fusions --

I have video and have been to workshops with real Egyptians, doing real Egyptian style. Loie Fuller's fabric manipulation didn't keep me from finding real Egyptians. And I didn't have to look that hard.

I've taken class with some great Turkish style and Turkish folk dance instructors. Ruth St. Denis's oriental fantasy nonsense didn't keep me from find authentic Turks teaching authentic Turkish dance. And I really didn't have to look that hard.

I have videos of Reda Troupe and Aida Nour's solo show. I can study with Aida if I want to go back to Dallas. I have quasi-local Egyptian and Syrian instructors to study with. Neither Bou Saada nor Jamila Salimpour nor the Bellydance Superstars have prevented me from having access to this. And I don't have to look that hard to find good quality instruction.

Despite Suhaila's "fusions," one workshop with her was a life-changing event for me, and I swear it saved my marriage. The BDSS have just released an instructional video on basic Hula. I haven't seen it yet, but I plan to get it because I'm interested in Hula and prior to this the available resources have been scant. They are distributing the Bellydancers of Cairo dvd which is a FABULOUS resource that I would probably have heard of eventually, but I heard of first through a BDSS performance dvd insert.

Do I like all the fusion dances? No, some of them bore me to tears. Some of them wow me beyond words. But what I don't like I can always fast forward through, daydream through, or yes, even CHANGE THE CHANNEL! mwahahaha.


carry on.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

Hi Aziyade,

In a seminar I took from Raqia Hassan about 15 months ago, she also specifically demonstrated two versions of the same movement and specifically identified one way of doing it as "folk" and the other way of doing it as "oriental."

Also, I most definitely think that Oriental (which I consider to be the best word for this dance, as you know!) has a corresponding social or folk form or style that was done before Badia Masabni and is still done by men, women, and children today--Raks Beledi.

And as to whether any other dance forms have a social equivalent--what about ballroom dances? Dinner-dance-waltz & foxtrot might be going more the classroom and competition route now compared to say the 1960s, but the old tradition of girls learning from their dads isn't dead yet. This seems an apt comparison to me also in that I might be terrible at the waltz (true) but when I do the waltz to 3/4 time music, and when the winner of the international competition in waltz do it, we are doing the same dance.

Just my two cents.

Cathy

I do this same thing, referring to one as professional belly dance and the other as beledi or shaabi, or Saidi. Beledi is one of the dances from which belly dance took root movement, but the entire psychological and social concept is different, along the meaning and purpose dances. Since one is belly dance and one is not, I do not refer to them both as "belly dance", though they both might be "oriental" in that they come from the Middle East. It is also true that in Egyptian belly dance, the music sometimes dictates that the dancer utilize the more social form as opposed to the professional form to interpret the music or mood. These are not two forms of belly dance. They are two separate forms of dance that use some of the same movement base. I have studied a lot with Shareen el Safy and she does make a distinction between what the people do and what professional dancers do. Fifi Abdou has made that distinction on a video that is available through Saut wa Soura. If you are interested in knowing which one, I will go downstairs and get the title for you. Otherwise I am inclined to sit here and pop in when I get stuck on my lecture.
right now I am trying find out when Fifi's first big public show was.... Not having much luck so if anyone knows of a resource that has this info.
Regards,
A'isha