Abdominal Muscles - Does it adversely affect belly dancing?

[maylynn]

Ooo, interesting to see that others aren't belly roll/flutter fans - I thought I was alone on that!

I think people like it because of the belly connotation of bellydance as you say adiemus, and from what I gather, belly tricks were a big deal in bellydance in the 70s (in N. America anyway) - coin tricks, etc, so I feel like it's hanging on as a bit of a legacy from then. Can't say I've ever seen an Egyptian dancer do them.

 

[Artemocion Malta]

Belly rolls and flutters not for Arab dancers??????

my Belly dance, teacher was TUNISIAN -EGYPTIAN (tunisian mother egyptian father ) and she did do belly rolls and flutters (she was the one to teach them to me!
I like the use of an isolated belly in belly dance. to me it feels natural to do them ..

 

[Kashmir]

my Belly dance, teacher was TUNISIAN -EGYPTIAN (tunisian mother egyptian father ) and she did do belly rolls and flutters (she was the one to teach them to me!
I like the use of an isolated belly in belly dance. to me it feels natural to do them ..

Belly work is more common in the Maghrib - think of the Oelid Nail. There will be many peopel however, who would not include Maghrebi dance as belly dance (and may who do )

 

[Bellydance Oz]

Everyone's talking about "flat versus fat" - no one is discussing "flat versus flabby". It's quite possible to have a protruding stomach without carrying much fat.

I'm a recent belly dance convert after years of dancing jazz, ballet and flamenco. What struck me forcibly when I started learning was that students were taught to create hip movements mainly by using their knees, not their abdominals or obliques.

The result seems to be dancers who dance with their belly hanging out all the time. That's OK when they're young and slim, but trust me, it is not a pretty look on anyone else! In fact, there's one male dancer I've seen who dances with no stomach control at all - I just can't watch!

Is the teaching method - with all the emphasis on the knees - correct?

 

[suzquuu]

I think it is all about personal preference. Bellydance is for anyone and everyone and there are many styles, and performers/dancers have different strengths when it comes to moves and choreoagraphy. It is also about beauty being in the eye of the beholder. But let's face it, women are built differently to men, and we have extra skin on our belly to allow for an expanding uterus, and after you have had a child or two or three or six, your skin tone isn't the same as it was BC (before children). I found after my first child it took about 2 years for my bellyskin to firm back up again. Now 2 years after my second child, it seems to have gone back to what it was after baby number one. Loose wobbly bits on the belly do not only indicate a lack of muscle tone, or a lot of body fat, it can be the result of having had children, or dramatic weight loss, because when you contract your muscles, you feel them being rock hard.

I think unfortunately we are bombarded with so many images of these stick insect celebreties who have tons of money to pay trainers and chefs and have much more time on their hands to get 'fit', or the money for a mummy tuck and we can't live up to that, nor should we aspire to.

I think that the first thing is that we as dancers have to embrace our own build, and accept our own body as it is and not compare ourselves to others. We are who we are, and it is because of bellydance that I was able to accept my body as it is and NOT compare myself to the stick insects that we see parading around.

I love it that women of all shapes and sizes can do this wonderful dance for either fitness, performance or fun. I used to do mainstream aerobics, and was never happy doing it. Bellydance, yoga and pilates are what I do for my 'workouts' and I am much more relaxed and genuinely enjoy my practices.

I don't perform because I am not inspired to, for now it is for fun and something I do with my children at home.

 

[AngelaJP]

Belly work like rolls, flutters and the like are so challenging for me so I have made it my goal to improve on those, even just a bit, apart from the other moves. Besides, there is no other choice as most of the instructors teach that.

Do shimmies rely on the knees mostly? I don't think I've heard an instructor explain about this.

My upper body is horrendously ungraceful especially with a bony clavicle/collarbone (or whatever you call it) that I feel like a dancing skeleton when I look at my upper body movements, yikes! I badly need upper body grace. But this is off-topic already, haha!

 

[jenc]

Everyone's talking about "flat versus fat" - no one is discussing "flat versus flabby". It's quite possible to have a protruding stomach without carrying much fat.

I'm a recent belly dance convert after years of dancing jazz, ballet and flamenco. What struck me forcibly when I started learning was that students were taught to create hip movements mainly by using their knees, not their abdominals or obliques.

The result seems to be dancers who dance with their belly hanging out all the time. That's OK when they're young and slim, but trust me, it is not a pretty look on anyone else! In fact, there's one male dancer I've seen who dances with no stomach control at all - I just can't watch!

Is the teaching method - with all the emphasis on the knees - correct?

many teachers never tell their students this - perhaps they don't know??? The movements should be driven by the obliques.
i had been with my first teacher for a year, then went to a workshop with Heather burby organised by said teacher, and found out that was what I should be doing.
This was not mentioned by the teacher, either to the group I was dancing with "beginners" or to members of of her advanced group who did not attend the workshop.
i suppose that unless you are already a dancer, or are really dedicated, it takes hard work and practice to develop the correct muscles. So the teachers don't teach correct technique.

 

[jenc]

Duplicate post

 

[Bellydance Oz]

many teachers never tell their students this - perhaps they don't know??? The movements should be driven by the obliques.

Thanks, JenC, that's what I thought. Watch ATS dancers closely and you can actually see the obliques working! Obviously there is something about the way they teach technique that gets them activated.

I do suspect that a lot of teachers don't know. Here in Sydney, the belly dance scene is very empowering and supportive but sometimes I think it has gone a little too far - in that there are a lot of dancers who feel qualified to start teaching with only a few years' belly dance experience and NO other dance background. They may be beautiful dancers themselves, but that doesn't mean they understand how they do it.

 

[AngelaJP]

many teachers never tell their students this - perhaps they don't know???

I have encountered a couple of teachers who dance well but do not teach well.

Either I haven't been listening well to the instructions and explanations of the good ones or they really didn't explain it. There are also probably a couple or so teachers who explain the moves well but I just can't recall with the shimmies Probably a general universal thing with teachers? Hehe....

 

[jenc]

As to shimmies there a fair number of teachers and dancers who state that only knee shimmies are authentic egyptian. Others disagree. There is a thread on Bhuz and poss on here about this. Try searching as I haven't time right now but will post later.

 

[jenc]

Egyptian dancers use their obliques. you are right, It is western dancers who have misunderstood and use their knees to drive everything.

 

[Bellydance Oz]

As to shimmies there a fair number of teachers and dancers who state that only knee shimmies are authentic egyptian. Others disagree. There is a thread on Bhuz and poss on here about this. Try searching as I haven't time right now but will post later.

Wow! I am stunned. A few minutes of Googling and I've confirmed what I've been suspecting - that what I'm being taught is far too simplistic.

There are glute shimmies, knee shimmies and hip shimmies and goodness knows what else!

I do understand that using your knees to get the movement is an easy option for beginners, but what is happening is that dancers are starting out as teachers too early in their career, before they've learned that using the knees is one way, but not the best way. Thanks Jen!

 

[Kashmir]

I'm a recent belly dance convert after years of dancing jazz, ballet and flamenco. What struck me forcibly when I started learning was that students were taught to create hip movements mainly by using their knees, not their abdominals or obliques.

The result seems to be dancers who dance with their belly hanging out all the time. That's OK when they're young and slim, but trust me, it is not a pretty look on anyone else! In fact, there's one male dancer I've seen who dances with no stomach control at all - I just can't watch!

Is the teaching method - with all the emphasis on the knees - correct?

Personally I think using your knees (or worse your heels) to generate movement should be discouraged. From day one I teach beginners that their goal is to generate movement from their abs - those who cannot are shown the leg/knee cheats and encouraged (through various drills) to learn to use their abs to generate rocks, slides, circles, twists, and figure eights (some of these need a little glute assistance).

I also show them the effect of using legs vs abs as far as movement texture and quality - and with something like a figure eight - knee position.

If your teacher is only showing knee generated movement, maybe you should shop around. There's a wealth of good teachers in Oz I'd imagine.

 

[Bellydance Oz]

If your teacher is only showing knee generated movement, maybe you should shop around. There's a wealth of good teachers in Oz I'd imagine.

As it happens, I have "shopped around" quite a bit - not due to dissatisfaction, but because I've moved suburbs and jobs a few times and tried to find a teacher close to home or work. All up, I've experienced almost a dozen teachers around the Sydney area. None of them has ever talked about using the abs! There was one teacher - she's retired and was just filling in for my usual teacher one day - who mentioned using the glutes in a movement, just in passing, as if she assumed we knew all about it. She's the only teacher who has ever mentioned them.

I feel like hopping on a plane to Christchurch right now!

 

[jenc]

Yes, I've never had a teacher mention this - out of 5 I've been to. The nearest is when they insist on heels on the ground for Mayas - but without stressnig abs driven movement students tend to assume that extra knee is needed - so are a bit perplexed

 

[adiemus]

I must be lucky then, living in Christchurch! but I've also read about it here and on other forums. I find it difficult to only use knees!! Thanks Kashmir - you've taught me well!

 

[AngelaJP]

I sure am glad I'm going to Christchurch, for that and many other reasons! :dance:

I think many teachers know what they are doing but probably just fail to explain the shimmy well. Or they must have assumed students already know?

 

[Salome]

I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot of people teaching who do not know what they are doing, or that using the legs/knees to drive a movement is not proper in relation to some movements across the board. But I just wanted to throw in the mix here that there are movements where the technique used to produce them varies a bit depending on the style. When I see an Egyptian style dancer do a hip lift, the leg straightens a little bit but the emphasis seems to be on the glute contraction. Giving it that more internal, subtle feeling. When I see a Turkish or American Oriental dancer, the leg drives the movement significantly, engaging the oblique a bit, giving it a much bolder, larger range of motion... I wouldn't say that the Turks are doing it wrong, they are doing it differently.