More talented????????

[Tarik Sultan]

I second that, Tarik!

And it's an incredibly beautiful thing to see when a woman who never considered herself beautiful begins to open up like a flower and shine. I may champion the cause of male dancers, but that doesn't mean that I do not have the deepest love and appreciation for my sisters, or that i don't love, appreciate and respect them for being women and all that they have offered the world!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

This is why I put my videos up on youtube, so that potential customers can see what I look like and what I do.

Tarik,
Who and what is this?

 

[AngelaJP]

And it's an incredibly beautiful thing to see when a woman who never considered herself beautiful begins to open up like a flower and shine.

That is one of the reasons I pursued belly dancing even at this late age and even if I had to give up a few other sports. Belly dancing is very liberating in a beautiful kind of way.

Tarik: I may champion the cause of male dancers, but that doesn't mean that I do not have the deepest love and appreciation for my sisters, or that i don't love, appreciate and respect them for being women and all that they have offered the world!

Obviously one of the many reasons why your students love you!
And if I ever visit NYC, I'll attend one or more of your classes.

P.S. (Off topic) My bf and I plan to attend a grand costume party in his country a couple of months from now and of course, I'll be dressed as a belly dancer. He agreed to dress up as an Arab and when I let him choose from among the pictures of the costumes, do you know what he chose? The red costume you wore in the front page of your website We'll probably use a darker color for him though but have red as the accents as he's so blonde and red might not look good on him. I, on the other hand, will wear fire engine red!

 

[Zorba]

And it's an incredibly beautiful thing to see when a woman who never considered herself beautiful begins to open up like a flower and shine. I may champion the cause of male dancers, but that doesn't mean that I do not have the deepest love and appreciation for my sisters, or that i don't love, appreciate and respect them for being women and all that they have offered the world!

I watched this with my wife. It is wonderful!

 

[kayshier]

I think we know what the elements of the dance are, we've seen it, spoken about it adnausium now let's just get out there and dance and let the audience be the judge!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
i am totally exhausted mentally from reading this thread.
to be honest while very informative, the search for absolutes can be very esoteric and and almost daunting to those like myself who just want to learn how to dance properly.

 

[Zorba]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
i am totally exhausted mentally from reading this thread.
to be honest while very informative, the search for absolutes can be very esoteric and and almost daunting to those like myself who just want to learn how to dance properly.

My eyes glassed over about 15 pages back, and rolled up in my head about 10 pages ago... :lol:

 

[kayshier]

My eyes glassed over about 15 pages back, and rolled up in my head about 10 pages ago... :lol:

:lol:
at least i am not alone in this.

 

[Pirika Repun]

Hahaha! :lol: Man, my eye! You're as woman as any woman can get!

Pirika, this is how I see feminine essence but I don't know if I am correct - I believe feminine essence is an individual thing, a combination of each woman's physical, mental and especially spiritual inner peace and balance. Each woman has different strengths and weaknesses. You can find the meek and giving type who finds pleasure in always giving and pleasing and not so in receiving, innocent type who doesn't know much about the world, the experienced and strong matriarchal kind of lady, the seductive type, the adventurous type who finds fulfillment in doing the most unusual things a woman isn't expected to indulge in, the motherly type and soooo many other types of women. It is not easy for me to explain in words as it is something that cannot be seen but felt and when one feels it, it just radiates outwardly.

Feminine essence for me, means the fulfillment, peace and balance they experience being president or mayor and taking care of the people of a country or city, or fulfillment peace and balance from raising children. For me, since I don't have children, it may be from teaching my students with special needs and taking care of my man in the best way I can. There are women whose feminine energy and men whose masculine energy inspire me and draw me to them and help me draw out my own energy as well.

Each person has feminine and masculine qualities and it is important for me to keep in touch with both. Whew, it's difficult to explain probably because I find it difficult to fully understand also.

What do you think? Do you have your own take on feminine essence? This should be in another thread, hahaha!

Tarik says: To me that's like asking what makes sugar sweet. Sugar is sweet because that is the inherent quality of what it is. It can never be otherwise. Squeeze an orange and you don't get pineapple juice. When you are relaxed and in touch with your body and emotions, your femininity naturally expresses itself. Now as you pointed out, there are many different types of femininity. It depends on the individual's dominant personality traits, but all women are feminine. Its just a matter if they are in touch with it, or if they have had so much negative conditioning that they feel they have to suppress it. In the case where it is the latter, this dance can in fact be a very liberating vehicle to helping them overcome that barrier.

Angela and Tarik

I understand both you guys points, and I agree both of you. Thnks for helping me to understand it.

First of all, how you feel feminine is all depends on individual. I was watching TV show "Hidden life of women" the other day, and they show professional female body builders. Some of them have much masculine body than brothers in this forum and ordinal guys. However, all of them said was "I am very sexy, and beautiful woman" with confidence and they were. They believe in themselves and confident on what they are doing and feel feminine and sexy than I do (that I felt).

Actually, I asked one of my friends she also study Oriental Dance, but different teachers than me, and she said "if someone asked me to define what Raks Sharqi means to me I would say it is female empowerment. It teaches women how to tap into the power that is their femininity, their sensuality and use that confidence throughout all aspects of their life. At the heart of Raks Sharqi is softness, grace, flintiness, teasing, and sexiness. I think every aspect of it is designed with the female body in mind. From the hair, to the waist, the hips, the delicate, graceful movements of the hands and fingers, the posture, everything. I do believe that it is a female domain- a man can do it, but he would not be as captivating, as alluring, as seductive as a woman doing it- chest circles: what is he circling? So, bottom line I would not pay to see, or ask about lessons from a female bodybuilder/belly dancer because I don't think they have anything to offer me.”

I asked her if professional female body builder who also good Oriental Dancer, she would accept them. Then she said NO, because for her Oriental dance is more like female figure not feeling. She said Raks Sharki is feminine feeling as well, but she doesn’t accept female body builder who feels sexy as many other women. Yes, she is beautiful woman has very curvy shape and big boobs and many men look at her and ask her out. She loves this dance, but some point I disagree with her. I understand some body claim to Oriental Dance or Belly Dance have to have feminine essence, but if feminine essence is the feeling women feel as female or women, then why they can’t accept masculine body women dance Oriental Dance? Because she doesn’t have curvy body as ordinal women or just an image of masculine body do not match to “Belly Dance”?

Like Tarik said if that is orange, we can get only orange juice, and pineapple. Even if women do not have ideal female body figure, but still women. Like I said before, I do not have such a body shape, and I don’t feel Oriental Dance is designed for just women. Dance is unisex for me. Yes, Oriental dance dominated by women and contain sensuality, but it not necessary to be feminine sensuality if there any feminine sensuality exist. I’m saying if you express your feeling with dance, feel the music and express your emotions and soul, how important body shape or female body? If some one watch I’m dancing and feel my soul and if it is feminine, sensual or more masculine power form me all fine with me. What ever they feel from me is all me!! and that what I express myself and my soul from the music. I don’t think about be feminine or be sexy or sensual or whatever while I dance, I just feel the music and express my emotion, my soul and just have fun! For me, most dances (if not all) have to be having fun to dance, and enjoy yourself. If you think too much of this dance have to have such an element or something, then you can’t enjoy yourself, and what the point to dance with frustration or not having fun? That is my philosophy for the dance, and I know not everybody agree with me, and I’m not force everybody to agree or understand my point of view, because each one of us have different opinion and different view and I respect everybody’s opinion.

 

[AngelaJP]

My eyes glassed over about 15 pages back, and rolled up in my head about 10 pages ago... :lol:

Hahahaha Zorba and Kayshier :lol: Hope your eyes have gone down from your forehead already.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

:lol:
at least i am not alone in this.

And now you know why when I was dealing with a certain person, it just got to the point where I was a sarcastic ass. Stating something a few times, okay. Having to do it over and over and over for upwards of 10 yrs is just fu**ing torture! So instead of talking about "feminine essence", if you see people don't see it or understand MOVE ON! Teach them how to be sensual and move with emotion. Instead of beating a dead horse, show people some video clips of what you are talking about. What qualities a good dancer in the Egyptian style should have like this lady:



She expresses all the qualities of Egyptian dance. She is sensual, she's got a great personality and she hears the music. Her body is a visual representation of the music. She's not focused on doing "tricks", she's expressing her soul. The feminine essence is taking care of itself as will happen when any woman sits back and opens herself up.

Now as a man, do I want to express womanliness, no, because thats not me. So what I had to do was learn. Since sensuality is the central part of the dance, how do men do it and retain their natural identity? Since there were no professional males to look at, I had to go to the source, Baladi and look at those guys and then internalize what I learned from them so I can bring it to the stage:



This is Saad and Dina. He starts dancing with her towards the end. His movements are sensual, he is also expressing the music and his personality, but at no time do you forget that he's a man. These are the qualities that make the dance Egyptian as versus American version and these are the qualities a guy should bring to his dance and stage if he is going to do Sharki.



I don't care about feminine essence, I think that takes care of itself. If the dance is inherently feminine essence then it will be what it will be whether I say so or not. What I do care about is that my dance reflects the qualities inherent in Egyptian dance. So I've shown what those qualities are, lets get off the merri go round and GO DANCE!

 

[Aniseteph]

I LOVE that clip of Ilil, just beautiful. I wanna do THAT! <sigh>

 

[AngelaJP]

What qualities a good dancer in the Egyptian style should have like this lady: She expresses all the qualities of Egyptian dance. She is sensual, she's got a great personality and she hears the music. The feminine essence is taking care of itself as will happen when any woman sits back and opens herself up.

:clap: She is mesmerizing! Totally relaxed, so natural, sensuously and happily expressed the music and just utterly graceful.

I don't know how many lifetimes after will I be able to dance like her :think:

 

[Pirika Repun]

:clap: She is mesmerizing! Totally relaxed, so natural, sensuously and happily expressed the music and just utterly graceful.

I don't know how many lifetimes after will I be able to dance like her :think:

Oh, honey you will. Believe me, if you enjoy the music and feel the music to express your emotion and feeling, you dance like her or anybody truly enjoys the dance. :dance:

For me, dance is not technique or how good you are, but how you love and enjoy the music and express the feeling with it. If you enjoy yourself it doesn’t matter how good you are or bad you are. If technically great the dance is, but no express emotion, it’s boring and dead to me. However, some one just enjoys the music and has fun even off the rhythm, it’s better than no emotion, no fun!

 

[masrawy]

To Tarik and the rest of th gang

I find it all so difficult to go through this thread too I don't remember now the I wanted to respond to your page back. But anyway
the clip you post it for Saad el Sagher and dina is more of a creative license the artists gets by being fames. And the way I see most of his work is more of a comedy than anything else.









The other clip for the Egyptian woman dancer I think it's a good example of somebody who was able connect the dot .... and I might add this piece is not choreographed and most probably why it looks right ..... and that's the way it should be.
Now for the male been accepted an all that Bla Bla Bla ( C..p) The few males that have their hearts bent out of shape about it they have to come to grip with the reality. When a female step into the stage, she owns it is giving by the audience. But when the man step on the stage, there is a suspicious and eyebrows lift, he has to prove himself on the stage. Pretty much the way you describe how you handled yourself on the stage. Yeah $20 is cheap
Zorba ..... get your eyebrows down, take a breath and go have some lemonade, it's on me this time

 

[Tarik Sultan]

To Tarik and the rest of th gang

I find it all so difficult to go through this thread too I don't remember now the I wanted to respond to your page back. But anyway
the clip you post it for Saad el Sagher and dina is more of a creative license the artists gets by being fames. And the way I see most of his work is more of a comedy than anything else.









The other clip for the Egyptian woman dancer I think it's a good example of somebody who was able connect the dot .... and I might add this piece is not choreographed and most probably why it looks right ..... and that's the way it should be.
Now for the male been accepted an all that Bla Bla Bla ( C..p) The few males that have their hearts bent out of shape about it they have to come to grip with the reality. When a female step into the stage, she owns it is giving by the audience. But when the man step on the stage, there is a suspicious and eyebrows lift, he has to prove himself on the stage. Pretty much the way you describe how you handled yourself on the stage. Yeah $20 is cheap
Zorba ..... get your eyebrows down, take a breath and go have some lemonade, it's on me this time

Yes Saad is also a comedian, but that does not negate the validity of his dancing skills. Believe me, I've seen him in concert and he dances for real, not for joke like Rico does. His movements reflect the reality of what you see Baladi guys doing who can dance.

This guy isn't an artist, but he was expressing the same qualities that Saad was in that clip. SENSUALITY and relaxed confidence. Neither he nor Saad looks anything other than a man when they dance. Saad is only reflecting what you find in the streets. The difference is that 15yrs ago no guy would have had the courage to do that on stage in Egypt. They all just stood there like they had a steel pole rammed up their asses. Now the guys are being real, THEY ARE BEING EGYPTIANS instead of trying to look like Europeans with hemorrhoids!



The sensuality and confidence that these guys move with is what guys should bring to the stage and THAT is the point.

Now as far as the comment you made about the stage. This is 100% correct. Women are given automatic validity to be on it. A guy has to earn it. And this is why we have to come correct or not come at all. For any guy going to do this, you have to have a pair of real balls in your pants! Not a pair of shriveled raisins or a bouquet of roses. You have to have some heart, because someone eventually will challenge you. Like one time I was dancing at a street fair and some guy yells out "DON'T NO BODY WANT TO SEE YOU ONLY A WOMAN SUPPOSE TO DO THAT"! My response: MOTHA FU**ER YOU SEE A WOMAN UP HERE? EVERY BODY YOU HAVING A GOOD TIME? YEAAAH! ADIES YOU HAVING A GOOD TIME? Yeeeeah. THEN MOTHA FU**A SHUT THE HELL UP! The audience loved it. You have to be strong to do this. The second you come across all weak and whimpy, they'll be on you like a dog on raw meat. So yes, I know I have to prove myself every time I get out there. I see the raised eyebrows, but by the time I finish, they're calling me back for more, and that's what's important, because that means they had a good time. And if the had a good time, I've done my job and earned my money!

 

[kayshier]

I don't care about feminine essence, I think that takes care of itself. If the dance is inherently feminine essence then it will be what it will be whether I say so or not. What I do care about is that my dance reflects the qualities inherent in Egyptian dance. So I've shown what those qualities are, lets get off the merri go round and GO DANCE!

and this is what i have been trying to understand from the beginning when i started to learn ME dance.

it began to worry me a great deal if i would get anywhere near where I want to be or rather where i should be, given the complexities of what i began to read on the forum in various threads. it did begin to feel like a merry go round,
for me it bordered on disillusionment really. it seemed like such an unattainable goal, especially in an environment such as mine where there aren't that many learning options.

all i care about really is learning how to dance properly, absorbing myself in as many examples as i can get, studying and learning and hopefully one day being able to do the best that i can do.

 

[masrawy]

you should be worry too

Tarik,

All I have to say it is for one man and real Egyptian it's lower class to the other. Back in time when I lived in Egypt "Ahmed Adwia" was for the lower-class now he's considered to be a classic. Hill we got " Shaban abdel Hameed" to replace him ... God knows what's we going to get 10 years from now. As you can see I'm not optimistic
The more I read through this thread as well as others in this forum on this subject I see things a little bit different. it seems to me people are using bd as sexual identity validation/crisis to what they are or think they are not, it is just used and abused plane and simple. So if you are a serious about bd as I can see you are, you should be worry too. ray:

 

[Zorba]

But when the man step on the stage, there is a suspicious and eyebrows lift, he has to prove himself on the stage. Pretty much the way you describe how you handled yourself on the stage. Yeah $20 is cheap
Zorba ..... get your eyebrows down, take a breath and go have some lemonade, it's on me this time

Eyebrows are down - 'cause you're quite correct. Doesn't make it "right", but that's the way it *is*...

 

[Zorba]

I don't care about feminine essence, I think that takes care of itself. If the dance is inherently feminine essence then it will be what it will be whether I say so or not.

Yes it does! Or the "masculine" essence for that matter. Another Tarik "quote for the ages" - couldn't agree more!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

The more I read through this thread as well as others in this forum on this subject I see things a little bit different. it seems to me people are using bd as sexual identity validation/crisis to what they are or think they are not, it is just used and abused plane and simple. So if you are a serious about bd as I can see you are, you should be worry too. ray:[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

This is exactly the point I've been making for a very long time. And yes, it did worry me, but you know what? I realize that there is nothing I can do about it, and trying to do so will only burn up energy that I should be using to create and end up burning me out. There's all kinds of weird shit out there these days. And just when you thought you've seen it all the weird shit goes and has babies!

All I can do is dance from the purity of my soul and share with the world the beauty of Egyptian Oriental dance and show them the beauty that is there. I can help them to experience touching parts of their souls they were afraid to explore. I can share with them the beauty I see and feel and in doing so, I keep the dance alive and inspire them to go and explore the treasure chest that is Egyptian dance. There really is so much there that is unexplored.

I was just hanging with a buddy of mine and he played me a bit of Al Ghadan al Qak by Um Kalthoum. I'd never heard the full introduction before. Its magical! When I hear that it inspires me and I want to share that beauty with my students, my audience, with the world.

As for the sexuality thing. Look. Any guy who is a dancer, no matter what dance, is going to have to deal with the fact people will automatically assume you're gay. That is the stereotype. But you have to be bigger than that, just like Dina and every dancer has to be bigger than the sharmuta assumption. If you spend all your tim,e worrying that people think you spend half your life on your back, or that everyones thinking you take it up the ass your not going to have the energy left over to express the passion that is inside you. Whatever someone may be thinking is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you DANCER, express the truth of your authentic self. That is the ultimate truth. That is a spiritual energy that cuts through all the condition and dysfunction that society throws at us. When I see a guy or girl on a feluca or in a wedding in that zone, tarab, THAT is truth! And that is what the human soul responds to. If you do that, and they don't see it, feel it, they are DEAD! Walking corpses. And my mother always taught me that children shouldn't play with dead things.