Cultural appreciation and BD history

[Suhad]

I would also like to point out that once a dance form becomes static, with no changes to it, it becomes "folk dance" and is only drug out for public performances on particular occasions, with no relevance to everyday life in the cultures it arose.

I don't want to see that happen to bellydance; it's too beautiful an art form for that. Are there limits on what could/should be fused? Oh, yeah...I'm thinking body piercing doesn't belong for instance.

The good news is that stuff that isn't widely appreciated, and/or commercially viable just isn't going to stick.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Culture, etc.

Dear Suhad,
I, too, have been researching for over 32 years to trace the roots of belly dance.
I disagree that belly dance is ancient. Movement is ancient, yes; belly dance, no. And you will find movements that are similar or even exactly like those of belly dance in dances all over the world, but that does not make those dances belly dance either. It just means that the human body moves in finite ways and so movements are seen in common, though essence, feeling and meaning in the dances could be very different. Dance is more than just movement, so any movements that "SEEM to be belly dance" as you say, could be anything; in fact not even dance at all. It is easy to see the root movements of belly dance in such dances as Beledi, Saidi and Ghawazi... but none of those dances is belly dance. They are specific folkloric forms developed in their own environments, with their own specific essences, feelings and music... as is belly dance.
As for belly dance developing out of influences from western colonialism, I reject this,and feel that belly dance would have developed out of the folkloric dances of the regions in which it did develop, just as tap developed here in the U.S. as a result of large numbers of people moving into the cities and changing their dances to meet their new situations. ( I have to repeat here, why do so many western thinkers believe that nothing happens until WE get there???)The dance, whether or not Badia Masabni got credit for it, was developing before she made it famous. This is my theory and not proven fact, but this is the usual pattern of dance development all over the world.
Ballet has influenced some movement in Middle Eastern dance, but it has retained its essence because that balletic movement was defined and understood from a Middle Eastern worldview. (Reda has actually done some very poor stuff with ballet because, he does not "Get it". I have some absolutely horrendous footage of some of the dances he choreographed for Farida Fahmy...). When you lose that essence it is no longer the dance.

My point has never been to squelch creativity, but instead to encourage people to clearly define what is being created. Again, I have to wonder why people must twist what I say to the point where it is unrecognizeable by me. I also wonder why people can't simply call what they are doing by some more truthful and meaningful name. Belly dance does not even begin to define much of what is being done out there under that label. I hate to have to repeat myself, but people seem to be totally missing the point that the real definition of dance is its essence, which has not changed from the dance's early development until now in its native environments. I can watch video filmed in Egypt and tell you immediately if the dancer is a native or not... not becasue of movement, but becasue of the way in which the movement is approached in correlation to every other aspect of the dance. It is essence that makes the dance every time; an innate understanding of that movement as part of the wholistic picture of the dance.
And to clarify my point once more about males dancing. I have never said males should not dance and in fact I have coached a a couple of the finest dancers the United States has produced. My personal feelings about it, however, are nothing to do with the prevailing sentiment in the Middle East. There have always been male belly dancers and there always will be, but that does not mean they are accepted as natural or normal in the Middle East, where women dancers, whether socially accepted or otherwise, are indeed considered natural and normal...a little TOO natural and normal and therein lies the problem. Again, the idea of males dancing is just great with me, however, I do not fool myself into thinkiing that this is the general Middle EAstern sentiment. I have watched Middle Eastern men walk out of the room when, in my estimation, the best professionl male belly dancer the U.S. has ever had was performing at his peak. I was saddened by this. I also understood that their own feeling and prejudices would not let them enjoy his work.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[samira shuruk]

My understanding:

Dance is about movement.
Dance is about emotion.
Some dances are ALSO about culture (which would include "essence" as a *part*).

There seems to be one main person (on here) with a very narrow definition of what "has the right" to be called "belly dance" getting everyone else all up in arms. It has to be traditional movement, in traditional costuming to traditional music. Nothing else.
That of course cuts out TONS of Arabic and Mediterranean dancers. I'm not sure Aisha feels Mediterranean styles warrent being called "belly dance" as they are not "arabic".
This guy certainly would be considered "shameful":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ50zOJlc94

I think he's good. The crowd seems to enjoy him as well. I suppose one could say his success may indicate Turkey's attitude towards men dancing. But then we fall back on "are you an Arabic elitist or not" question. Is it only "authentic" in countries where they speak Arabic?

Demelza wrote:
Zorba - who said that the dance is beign supressed there? and if it is, who said that it is the religious 'whackoes' as you reffered to them ?

With just cursory kowledge of dance in the ME over the last 30 years anyone would know it is going through a period of repression. Even just watching a few videos would tell you that. Many countries in the region are experiencing conservative and/or fundamentalist religious turn-arounds. Some rather extreme. Demelza- you say you lived in Saudi Arabia and now live in England? You would surely know this.

 

[Recnadocir]

I think that belly dance is perceived as a feminine activity by the general public, not because it has any particular gender essence but simply because the ratio of women to men who perform belly dance has always been highly balanced toward women. Simple as that. The more men perform belly dance, the more it can be perceived as an activity that is perfectly natural for men to do.

Women who participate in activities historically seen as "male" such as wrestling, construction work, and probably even business and politics, are viewed as predominantly lesbian probably because of the mental toughness they have to have to break the barriers.

No doubt a higher percentage of male dancers are gay, relative to the percentage of gay males in the general population, just as a higher percentage of females in competitive sports, especially contact and collision sports, would appear to be lesbian, relative to the percentage of lesbians in the general population. But to say that an activity has a particular gender essence would suggest that all members of the opposite gender who participate in that activity must therefore be homosexual, and I don't think that is the case.

 

[Moon]

Dear A'isha, I don't know what you mean by this sentence:

Ballet has influenced some movement in Middle Eastern dance, but it has retained its essence because that balletic movement was defined and understood from a Middle Eastern worldview.

I would be happy if you could explain what is exactly a "Middle Eastern worldview"?

Dear all, as for my own opinion about cultural appreciation and BD history, I have no problem with fusion styles and I also don't have a problem with terms like "American cabaret bellydance" or "gothic bellydance" as long as there are still recognisable bellydance moves/music in it (whether there is such a thing as "bellydance moves" or not). In my opinion, the words "American cabaret" and "gothic" give clear information we are not dealing with authentic bellydance here. I also think it would be a real loss if authentic bellydance will be forgotten because of all kinds of fusion styles are developed nowadays. I think an audience must know what they are looking at. If you're dancing authentic bellydance, let them know you're dancing authentic/traditional bellydance/oriental dance / raqs sharqi. If you're dancing a modern fusion style, let them know you're dancing a fusion style consisting of bellydance moves with (...). I think authentic bellydance is nicest to watch when danced in an authentic costume, on authentic music and with authentic moves. Doing this, you are also the most honest to the audience.
But, when considering BD history I have some questions. I can imagine authentic bellydance as we still know it nowadays has derived from folkloric dances and is approximately 150 years old. But I find it hard to imagine that bellydance has evolved at the same moment in Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia etc., or is only Egyptian bellydance considered authentic bellydance?
My other question is about authenticity. If, for example, a well respected Egyptian dancer "makes up" a new move herself and incorporates it to her dance, is she still dancing authentic? And what if a dancer from a Western country, who dances authentic Egyptian style, incorporates a new move? Does it make a difference whether someone is from the middle east herself? (I personally think it should not make a difference).
What if a dancer incorporates more than one move? At what point she's not authentic anymore? Where do we draw the line?

 

[Aniseteph]

Wow, this thread seems to be exploding all over the forum. I'm probably going to regret this, but...

It seems to me that a lot of it is to do with the ownership of the term bellydance. Everyone seems to be using the same word but on a global level it now has a much wider meaning than what would be understood as bellydance by someone with a ME cultural background.

To a ME person it may be obvious what is and isn't real bellydance - maybe to any ME person, maybe just those with a dance background, I don't know. I don't have that cultural background. I respect that it's there, and I want to learn as authentic a style of dance as I can, but to me (don't be offended anyone) bellydance is:

• a hobby and social scene where I get to move and dance in a way my culture generally finds inappropriate in someone my age
• a chance to enjoy and share dancing with others
• a whole new world of music,
• a chance to wear (or aspire to wearing ) gorgeous costumes without thinking that is for someone half my age with a flat tummy.
• And I get to learn new stuff and talk to people all over the world (that's you lot).

I'm not into all the heavy sisterhood therapy stuff, I'm just an ordinary Western female who like thousands of others has gone along to a bellydance class and found something much more. I don't know how many of us "get" the spirit/essence of the dance, but that's what bellydance is to me. I'm not into tribal or fusions or incorporating BD into my own personal freedom of expression eek: ), but even if I was I don't think my list would be much different. And if it isn't bellydance, I don't know what to call it. When I explain it to anyone I say I go bellydancing, because that is the best word to get the message across. Bauchtanz? - I have to translate first. ME dance? - far more connotations of authenticity than bellydance.

And even if the bellydance community could relabel whatever we do that is outside the Real ME Bellydance, you are never going to get the word back from Joe Public. He has over 100 years of cultural baggage associated with the word - burlesque and stag-night strippers, I Dream of Jeannie, harem girls and the Sultan's favourite, jewelled navels, Shakira, etc etc. He may be wrong, he probably doesn't care. He even thinks it's Middle Eastern (half the attraction of course!) rather than mostly just a US fantasy.

IMO there is as much chance of reclaiming the term bellydance for the true roots of the dance as there is of me persuading you Americans that you are wrong in your definition of pants and bums. You are talking about different things.

Rant over.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Cultural appreciation, etc.

Dear Moon,
Worldview in general is a sociological and anthropological term that describes how people from specific cultures look at things. It is, of course a general term, since all any of us can ever do is write in generalities when we are describing groups of people. But most generalities do have legitimacy for "most" people. The Middle Eastern worldview is as complex as any other and can not be discussed in ubiquitous terms except for stuff like, "patriarchal society, monotheistic, etc. It is better described in specific aspects, such as, "In many Middle Eastern countries, women are required by law to wear hijab" (cover their hair). This is because hair considered to be very sexy and women must dress modestly so as not to call attention to themsleves".

Dear Samria,
Though it might suit you to believe that I am the only person with "a very narrow definition of what has the right to be called belly dance", I can assure that I am not alone in my thinking on this subject. Many people, however are afraid to voice their views for fear of putting up with what I have to put up with for daring to go againt what many feel is the status quo. Do you not see that anyone who is debating with me has their "narrow definition" as well, or do you just prefer as usual to point your finger at me? As for me speaking predominantly of Arabs, that is because these are the people with whom I am most familiar and feel that I am qualified to speak about. I also feel that the Turks were developing their belly dance at roughly the same time as the Egyptians, and for pretty much the same reasons, which I have discussed on this forum. However, I am not as qualified to talk about the development of Turkish dance, so I leave that to people who are. I am willing to say what I know and do not know. While I do not claim any Arab elitism, and in fact am currently studying both Rom and Turkish Belly dance, I do claim to know much, much more about Arab culture than Turkish or Greek. We have several people from those cultures who can tell us what we want to know. Aya, how do Greeks feel about male belly dancers??
Demelza, having lived in Saudi Arabia, might in fact know very little of what has been going on in the world of belly dance in the Middle East, since belly dance is only very infrequently seen at extremely private parties in Saudi. Samira, since you claim so much knowledge, YOU should know that. (Demelza, this is the second time today that I have seen her picking on you without justification, and you just keep on keeping on, Honey!! Your views have validity and meaning, just as do anyone else's on this forum)

Dear Aniseteph,
I do believe that all people who get into belly dance do so for their own reasons. For me, I can say that the dance has led me to a life long study of not only the dance itself, but to the people, the culture, the food, the clothing and every other aspect of Arab life. What I began to realize after really getting to know some of the people from the cultures and countries of the Middle East, was that if I wanted to claim to be doing their dances, I had better get some depth of understanding of the elements of their lives that make them think as they do, feel as they do, act as they do and also, dance as they do. The dance can not be separated out and remain what it is.
I have no problem with fusion or any other styles. I do suggest that we name them properly. And despite what Samira implies, there are many people coming to that same conclusion.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Recnadocir]

Content deleted, inadvertent double post

 

[Recnadocir]

What if we apply the "strict cultural" rule, or whatever you choose to call it, to other forms of dance? Well, sorry, you can no longer perform ballet movement unless you dress in a tutu, or even closer to the roots of ballet, Louis XIV era dress, and you can only dance ballet to early Baroque music, preferably by Lully. And jazz or tap? You are required to wear garments appropriate to vaudeville, or Harlem at the turn of the century, and can only dance to music of the period. Latin? It has to be a zoot suit, and old 78's of Beny More, none of this techno samba stuff. And to dance modern, you simply must wear an Isadora Duncan-esque, diaphanous flowing gown of some sort, and only dance to Wagner or Chopin.

Movement from all of these dances and others has been in most cases completely removed from its cultural origins. Has the movement suffered as a consequence? I think not. Have we we forgotten the cultural origins of these dances? Of course not. It's all in the dance history books. And you can find teachers to teach you the "pure" forms, whatever those are, in any major city in the US, Europe, even Asia and Latin America.

 

[Suhad]

Aisha, my point was NOT that bellydance only came about because of colonialism!!! My point WAS and IS that the way it is presented NOW, and over the last 150 years or so, is because it made money for the very poor, possibly marginalized members of the society that was colonized/imperialized. Of course the dances were there before that! And of course they are older than 150 years!

You on one hand insist that bellydance is only 100 years old then you turn around and in almost the same sentence say it developed out of folk dances, which to me is bordering on a logical fallacy. It's not either/or; it's something entirely else. The folk dances ARE the dance, all melted into one dance rather than many. And thank you for proving my point about evolution/borrowing. Yes, I think that many people moving to the cities also had something to do with the melding of many different dances as well.

 

[Sara]

Hm... Right.

I am torn between both sides of some of the arguements, but ah can really see where A'isha is coming from. If you think about it, Raqs Sharki is what it is because of the culture it has evolved out of? Right?

You can take the movements used, cause movement is universal and without boundries, but for it to be Raqs Sharki or whatever style of dance, it has to follow a certain method of executing those moves, and a certain flavour and feel behind it. I do like fusion and I aren't a police lady or whatever , but when talking about a specific style, I do think cultural awareness and appreciation is essential to really make it say, Raqs Sharki, or Romany dance, or whatever.

For example, I do sometimes feel touchy and annoyed when I see the term 'Gypsy Dance', cause to be fair, Romany people I know don't really like that word, and it's considered derogatory. Me gram, bless her, would kill me if I called her a gypsy, and she would never call any one else one! They should at least call it Romany. And I know it may be easier for the audience to 'relate' to if it's called that, but it's not what it is. I think though, this happens, becuase people aren't aware of what the word actually means, and the effect it can cause to Romany people.

Thats why I think it's important to understand and appreciate culture to be able to perform a dance. Even if you don't follow that culture, you're knowledge and respect for it should increase your understanding of that dance. Say in Romany dancing, you could wave your skirt around or stamp your feet all you want, but what does it actually mean? Why do they do that? What influenced it? It has to be their culture, and way of understanding things.

That's just my view. I really don't want to offend anyone or anything, but I thought A'isha needed some support, cause what she says has truth to it.

 

[Suhad]

And now that I'm a little upset about your insistence on being right, I'd like to point this out as well: your opinion, regardless of how many of your close friends and associates share it, is just that -- an opinion. Your opinion has no more, and no less validity than mine, or anyone else's on this forum. The research you have done appears to validate the opinion you want to have and you do not seem interested or able to consider any other opinion or any other option in addition to your own. That's great that you've danced for 32 years, it's great that you were taught by Arab dancers, and it's great that you think you know based on that. My instructor has been dancing basically her entire life, also sought out and took instruction from native Arab dancers, and has an entirely other opinion from your own.

I happen to believe, based on common sense and the ability to extrapolate, not to mention the months and years I have spent trying to find information on them, that those dances have been around for a LOT longer than 100 years; that they are very ancient; that they may or may not have been connected to fertility rituals/goddess worship. I think they probably were/are simply because so many other societies around the world have dances for similar purpose; I also tend to think so because Islam frowns on dancing...why would Mohammed care unless they were connected with another religious tradition? As was the drinking of alcohol, which was strongly connected with ritual drunkenness.

I know I'm not going to change your opinion. I do want you to know that insisting you're right, because your Arab friends also think the same way, will only alienate you from a lot of people on this board -- not because your friends don't have any credibility, but because a lot of us here have also done research and done talking and asking, and have come to different conclusions.

 

[Sara]

Ehy deary me, this is a right un! In the words of goole ole Len Wilde - There's nivver nowt but what there's summat!

I hope I got what I said earlier right.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Male belly dancers considered shameful by ME males

Hello all:

I’ve been following this thread from time to time for the past few weeks. Forgive me for not chiming in earlier. It was the posts between Aisha and Jamil which motivated me to respond. They seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, but in fact they aren’t, in fact, there is a cornel of truth in everything that has been said. I hate reading big blocks of text on the internet, so I’ll spare youy all by chopping this up into several posts. Let me start with the issue of the “essence” of Oriental dance, (available either in the spray or bath oil at Macys).http://forum.orientaldancer.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

The professional version of this dance known in Arabic as Raks sharki, is based on the movement vocabulary of the native dance social dance, Rak Baladi. As to whether or not it is feminine in essence….I would say yes and no. Now when I use the term masculine and feminine, what I’m referring to is expressions of energy. Masculine energy is aggressive, forceful, assertive. Feminine energy is nurturing, loving, for want of a better word…passive. Now if we look at the nature of this dance, either the professional or the social version, we will see that it has more of the feminine qualities. Why do I say this, because it is a happy, loving, accepting, friendly. Depending on who is dancing it can have some of the masculine qualities as well such as assertiveness, or it can be coy and shy, or can be both, assertive one moment and coy the next. Nevertheless, it has more of the gentler energy. Does this necessarily translate womanly or female, no. A very manly man does not become womanly when he’s cuddling a puppy or a baby, even though the emotions and act of cuddling is an expression of feminine energy.

So the next logical question: Is the professional version a womanly dance? Once again, yes and no. The professional version of the dance we are familiar with, whether you call it Oriental, Sharki or belly dance, which developed in the late ‘20’s and the ‘30’s in Egypt, was specifically designed with the female performer in mind. They were not concerned with representing the reality of the folk culture, in fact, they tried to distance themselves from it as much as possible. Yes it was artistic, but it was also commercial as well and the clientele was and still remains, primarily male. Therefore, the dance and dancer were redesigned to represent the epitome of feminine beauty and grace. The highest expression of this feminine ideal was represented by the new Hollywood inspired costume designed to enhance the natural contours of a woman’s body, where traditional garments are designed to conceal the body. Therefore, the current professional version of the dance we are used to, performed in nightclubs, restaurants, and film remains an expression of femininity, even though the movement vocabulary itself is in fact unisex.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Culture etc.

Dear Suhad,
I have never denied that belly dance has its roots in folkloric dances. However, that does not mean that belly dance is the same as those dances, which it is not. I have video of Fifi Abdou on stage asking the audience what kind of dance they want to see. She very much delineates between belly dance, Beledi and Saidi. She is a native Egyptian. Anyone who has seen the video where she dances to Agheeb Agheeb has also seen this. It is what she is talking to the audience about before she comes out to do that dance. Yes, there is no doubt that dance evolves, but that means it becomes a new thing and you notice that no one refers to Saidi or Beledi or Shaabi as Raqs Sharghi. They are separate dances and acknowledged as such. that is what I am calling for with those fusion dances that have evelved out of what is legitimately belly dance. So, thank YOU for supporting MY point as well.

Dear Sara,
Thank you for understanding what I am saying, and giving some really valid reasons from a cultural standpoint about why I am saying it. I notice that many people criticize my point oi view, but they just prefer to criticize instead of answering in any serious way my one often repeated question.
Why do people not want to refer to their dances with names that much better describe what they are actually doing as opposed to just calling anuthing they do "belly dance"? It is a serious question and an honest one, and it deserves a real answer instead of people just getting all offended by my suggestion. But then, of course it is easeier to point fingers at what a "narrow minded" person I am rather than carefully, thoughtfully to explain their point of view. I have at least doen that in the most civil way that I can. I notice that their usual replies are :"I don't care; 'its all about me", or "I don't have to worry about what Arabs think because I am in America", or "How dare you question the status quo. Think like the rest of us or you are a bitch"
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Demelza]

Wow !!.... Your talking some sense xxxxxx I love you x

 

[Aniseteph]

The dance can not be separated out and remain what it is.

Hi A'isha
I agree. It presumptious in the extreme to say you are performing a particular peoples' dance (let's call it "True" bellydance for now, though same goes for any dance) without learning about the cultural background. If you are from outside that background you'll be studying a lot if you want to do it properly. You owe respect to the culture that made it (whether or not you disagree with how they treat women, etc etc) - as you point out, YOU are doing THEIR dance, you should respect the spirit and essence of it and not go turning it into something else and presenting it as the original article.

The point I was trying to make is that the word bellydance now covers more that that. For me and I imagine thousands of hobby/amateur level students, bellydance is what I described in my last post. We are unlikely to make it to a full understanding of ME culture and the role or nature of "True" bellydance as described above. BUT we still love it - don't shut us out - and we call it bellydance because in our culture that is the word that best describes it. And the same word is used for the guys dancing, tribal and fusions etc etc, and all Joe Public's dubious connotations.

Yes, "True" bellydance should be differentiated from this mishmash of bellydance, and defended and protected. Many of the mishmashers care very much about "True" bellydance, but a lot don't. My point is that the word bellydance can't be "rehabilitated" back from the mishmash to the true: first Joe's strippers and the hootchy cootchy did for it, then just as you try to get past that the freedom-of-personal-expression artists do their thing with it. So, when you say, to a Tribal dancer for example, "that is not bellydance" there is going to be a misunderstanding and/or heated debate; your meaning is "that is not "True" bellydance", but they hear "that is not (mishmash) bellydance" With the widespread common usage of the term bellydance you need something more specific to define the "true".

Why do people not want to refer to their dances with names that much better describe what they are actually doing as opposed to just calling anuthing they do "belly dance"?

Depends who and where they are - professionals or students/amateurs? and with what audience in mind? a) they might mean belly dance in the mishmash sense described above and they don't know what the better names are, or b) they are trying to appeal to an audience who understands belly dance in the mishmash sense but not the better names. If the audience does understand the better names the dancer just looks ignorant.

She very much delineates between belly dance, Beledi and Saidi.

So what is the Arabic term? or does she say the English phrase belly dance? If there is an Arabic term for shouldn't we be using that for the specific form, rather than a word which is a catch-all in the UK and USA, whatever it might mean in Egypt?

 

[samsied]

I think part of our problem is we are using the same word "belly dance" but with different meanings...

For some, belly dance is any dance from or inspired by the Middle East, North Africa and related areas (the people who refer to saiidi, beledi, khalegy, ATS, schickette, Turkish Rom, raqs sharqi, tsiftitelli etc.) From this point of view, it seems rash to say the dance is only 100 years old since many of the folk dances have much older origins.

For others, it is specifically Raqs Sharqi/Oriental or the modern performing art nightclub version. I have heard dancers from the Mideast refer to folkloric dance or Oriental dance as different names. Some would include American Caberet and other western nightclub styles in this category. By this definition (the purist or inclusive version) I agree the evidence seems to be that this dance is fairly modern 100-150 years, but nobody is denying the folkloric dances the nightclub style evolved from is not older than that.

For still others, belly dance is any solo dance form that originated from torso and core muscles. I have heard people describe bollywood, hula, burlesque (yikes) as bellydance including an ocasional member of the general public.

I know that is simplifying this greatly and I am not sure which definition I use. In general, I think bellydance is the informal, English name for Raqs sharqi/Oriental Dance and it's Western equivalents. However, I have sometimes erred towards the first even though I don't consider all Mideastern dances to be "belly dance" (Debke, Dervish, Khaleegy to name a few), but I would by very happy to see them included in a "Bellydance" show or event. Likewise with fusion styles--though I prefer they are labeled as fusion, fantasy, experimental or interpretive dances as a shorthand way to say they are something different than traditional bellydance.

As a hobbyist dancer, I love that our scene offers venues where people of all ages, sizes and skill levels can share their love for dances. And I like that we currently have a rather broad range of dance styles shown at events (including "non bellydance" styles like the fusions, bollywood, flamenco and others that keep cropping up). Sometimes I do think it would be better to describe our events as "World Dance Fesival" rather than "Middle Eastern Dance Festival" or "Bellydance Festival".

As a hobbyist, I also love that this dance has caused me to be interested in cultures that did not previously interest me. When I meet people from the Middle East and North Africa, I find it much easier to connect with them. And they are usually surprised I have learned something about their culture, food, know some of their music, etc. In turn, they are usually happy to explain what a song means, what a gesture means, suggest a new song, etc. I once had a male Turkish housemate (in a large shared house) that was offended by my interest in bellydance. But he is very religious and could not understand why a "seemingly nice girl" like myself is interested in prostituting myself for free. (Uh did he just call me a slut?). The current trend in attitudes like that among *some* fundamentalist people is unfortunate, but it is unfair to pin that on everyone from these cultures.

Still pondering. This thread has given me much to think about...

 

[samira shuruk]

Tarik,
Very well said. Thank you so much for your input... and congratulations on your first post on OD.net

 

[samira shuruk]

Demelza, having lived in Sauda Arabia, might in fact know very little of what has been going on in the world of belly dance in the Middle East, since belly dance is only very infrequently seen at extremely private parties in Sauda. Samira, since you claim so much knowledge, YOU should know that.
Regards,
A'isha

No, no Aisha, if you read her posts carefully you'd see that according to her posts she lived in Sauda Arabia, has spent time and traveled in the Middle East (Jordan, Palestine, Lybia and Egypt). She lives in England. She has seen professional shows (and lots of social and club dancing). She presents herself as someone who knows. THIS was why I found it surprising when she said:
"Zorba - who said that the dance is beign supressed there? and if it is, who said that it is the religious 'whackoes' as you reffered to them ?"

and I found this (amongst other things) to be expressing prejudism:
"I'll be honest with you, when I first went to Egypt many many years ago I used to giggle when I saw a guy belly dancing..I used to get embarrassed FOR THEM...I just used to think that they looked so gay - a bit like when 2 straight male friends will hold hands as they walk through the streets of cairo! however it grew on me (not the holding hands thing - still don't get that "
So with that in mind I replied:
"With just cursory kowledge of dance in the ME over the last 30 years anyone would know it is going through a period of repression. Even just watching a few videos would tell you that. Many countries in the region are experiencing conservative and/or fundamentalist religious turn-arounds. Some rather extreme. Demelza- you say you lived in Sauda Arabia and now live in England? You would surely know this."
based on the fact that she 1) has travelled and 2) is in England with access to news, internet, videos etc 3) is interested in belly dance 4) living in Saudi Arabia would give her a leg up on the reform that has been happening.