Fighting for Muslim women's Rights--BBC story

[Farasha Hanem]

Hi Farasha,

Yes I know about the other books of the OT but am not closely acquainted with all the details of Jewish law (though I did read at a bar mitzvah recently in the Torah sitting there in the --reform--temple that YHWH made some of his people eat their own babies as a punishment! :shok. What I was specifically wondering about is when the practice of animal sacrifice died out in the early Christian practice. Whether it was abandoned in the first century AD or later.

I think Communion is celebrated with bread and wine because that's what Jesus used at the last supper? Another thing to look up. Further to my previous point, I think most of the parables of Jesus are taught as metaphors but the "I am the Son of God" was interpreted at least by some quite literally along with "this is my body" and "this is my blood" sayings.

There are a lot of cannibalistic overtones in it all.

Hi, cathy. I came back on to check on my Shalwar Kameez thread before getting ready for work, and noticed your response. Gee, I kinda feel guilty, wondering if I've strayed us a tad off-topic! If the mods wish, do you want to start a new thread for this? Anyway, yes, Jesus did use bread and wine at the Last Supper, and some people do have a problem with it, because on the surface, it does seem like cannibalism, but that's not what it is at all. I believe the Catholics do believe that during their version of the Lord's Supper (holy communion), the bread and wine are transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ (my mother's side of the family are staunch Catholics, and I know this is what they believe). However, the bread and wine are only symbols; they merely represent the body and blood of Christ as it was broken on the Cross. Jesus did say, "This is my body," "This is my blood," but He was speaking metaphorically. Much of His teaching is symbolic. He took ordinary things from everyday life in order to teach a spiritual truth. As for when the sacrifices died out, let's just say they should have ended at the Cross, because He was the ultimate sacrifice prophesied from Genesis on through the Old Testament. However, the majority of the Jewish religious leaders of the day refused to recognize Christ as the prophesied Messiah, so yes, the sacrifices did go on for a time after His death, burial, and resurrection. The sacrifices probably ended either in A.D. 60, 70, or 80 (I'm writing from memory, so I can't remember the correct date oO;;;; ), 70! That's it! when Titus destroyed Jerusalem, or A.D. 160 or 180 (again, my memory fails me), when Israel as a country was destroyed for the next two millenia.

I'm so sorry I don't have time to double-check my information, but for now I have to get ready for work, and I work this afternoon from 2 til 11 this evening. If I get time this weekend, I'll brush up on my Bible and my historical facts. Thank you and A'isha for making this a very interesting discussion; it's very seldom that I talk about Christianity to anyone. I try to live it rather than to bang people over the head with it.

 

[Makeda Maysa]

ITA with everything Farasha just said.

 

[Sita]

Ya Am,

It's not a big deal...it's a discussion! :lol:

Sometimes when we learn about something 'different', we have to deal with what we see as the biggest differences first.
Or at least the things that jump out at us the most.

Muslim life in the UK has until quite recently been a very closed community.

When 'Nadey al Cul' was set up in Liverpool back in 1996, our aim was to bridge the Arab and non Arab community of Liverpool.

This was how the Arab Arts festival was born, the Arts proved to be the most fruitful and positive way to bring people together.
Hey Caroline just curious when and where is this festival I know some people who would be really interested in attending such an event (myself included

There is a need generally for more intergration and interaction but people need a forum to say exactly what is on their mind and explore the issues they are interested in.

This needs to be a safe forum where everybody needs to feel listened to and not judged. There are still very few places in the UK where this interchange can happen. Where else can this happen?

Last year I was providing training to youth workers in 'Muslim youth work'.

The main topics raised were all those which are percieved to go against equality (which for most should be a principle of life).
What people eat and drink and do in their spare time was fairly low on the agenda. The delegates needed most all all a space to question their current knowledge and understanding and gave examples.

My co-worker in the training was a disabled Egyptian guy called Khaled Shalaby (who was famous for being the first disabled person to swim the English channel).

Khaled was patient, calm and understanding and made everyone feel at ease.
This approach allowed the particpants to feel ok enough to face some of their feelings around these issues and challenge them.

It only takes one defensive person in the room to send everyone retreating back into their shell.
This is what annoys me about the media and politicians like Jack Straw - their ill advised and un-informed statements push everyone back into defensive positions and discourse comes to a HALT.

We all get passionate and impatient, and online I do it more than in life because I dont see the person before me.

We have something valuable going on in this forum, lets keep it going... lets continue to explore and debate important issues.
Let us create an atmosphere which allows this to continue without insult.
Let us continue to challenge ourselves and others but in a way which doesnt exclude people.

Sita

 

[Sita]

Hi, cathy. I came back on to check on my Shalwar Kameez thread before getting ready for work, and noticed your response. Gee, I kinda feel guilty, wondering if I've strayed us a tad off-topic! If the mods wish, do you want to start a new thread for this? Anyway, yes, Jesus did use bread and wine at the Last Supper, and some people do have a problem with it, because on the surface, it does seem like cannibalism, but that's not what it is at all. I believe the Catholics do believe that during their version of the Lord's Supper (holy communion), the bread and wine are transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ (my mother's side of the family are staunch Catholics, and I know this is what they believe). However, the bread and wine are only symbols; they merely represent the body and blood of Christ as it was broken on the Cross. Jesus did say, "This is my body," "This is my blood," but He was speaking metaphorically. Much of His teaching is symbolic. He took ordinary things from everyday life in order to teach a spiritual truth. As for when the sacrifices died out, let's just say they should have ended at the Cross, because He was the ultimate sacrifice prophesied from Genesis on through the Old Testament. However, the majority of the Jewish religious leaders of the day refused to recognize Christ as the prophesied Messiah, so yes, the sacrifices did go on for a time after His death, burial, and resurrection. The sacrifices probably ended either in A.D. 60, 70, or 80 (I'm writing from memory, so I can't remember the correct date oO;;;; ), 70! That's it! when Titus destroyed Jerusalem, or A.D. 160 or 180 (again, my memory fails me), when Israel as a country was destroyed for the next two millenia.

I'm so sorry I don't have time to double-check my information, but for now I have to get ready for work, and I work this afternoon from 2 til 11 this evening. If I get time this weekend, I'll brush up on my Bible and my historical facts. Thank you and A'isha for making this a very interesting discussion; it's very seldom that I talk about Christianity to anyone. I try to live it rather than to bang people over the head with it.

Just to try and explain the Catholic tradition of the Eucharist...


"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you … he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him" (John 6:53-56)

The issue of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church is complex and I'm not sure where to start. They key word is Transubstantiation in which once prayed over by the Priest the bread and wine is transformed (through the power of the Holy Spirit) and Jesus is present in whole within the sacrament (as Jesus was rressurected his body can no longer be seprated so in fact it is more than just his body and blood but Jesus is in whole within the Eucharist) .

The 1551 Council Of Trent explains it thus: "by the consecration of the bread and of the wine, a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of His blood; which conversion is, by the holy Catholic Church, suitably and properly called Transubstantiation."
Nor is it only the Catholic Chruch who believe in this transformation.

The key word here is substance; the essence of something is changed the reality but not the appearance; it is a metaphysical, divine transformation ... please remember we are discussing divinity - the holy Trinity; God himself - so anything is possible....

but to answer the question yes the Eucharist could be seen to have cannablistic overtones by some however the difference is that Jesus is not physically present but substantially present.

I just wanted to try and explain the position as it was mentioned above...
Sita

 

[Aisha Azar]

Eucharist

Just to try and explain the Catholic tradition of the Eucharist...


"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you … he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him" (John 6:53-56)

The issue of the Eucharist in the Catholic Church is complex and I'm not sure where to start. They key word is Transubstantiation in which once prayed over by the Priest the bread and wine is transformed (through the power of the Holy Spirit) and Jesus is present in whole within the sacrament (as Jesus was rressurected his body can no longer be seprated so in fact it is more than just his body and blood but Jesus is in whole within the Eucharist) .

The 1551 Council Of Trent explains it thus: "by the consecration of the bread and of the wine, a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of His blood; which conversion is, by the holy Catholic Church, suitably and properly called Transubstantiation."
Nor is it only the Catholic Chruch who believe in this transformation.

The key word here is substance; the essence of something is changed the reality but not the appearance; it is a metaphysical, divine transformation ... please remember we are discussing divinity - the holy Trinity; God himself - so anything is possible....

but to answer the question yes the Eucharist could be seen to have cannablistic overtones by some however the difference is that Jesus is not physically present but substantially present.

I just wanted to try and explain the position as it was mentioned above...
Sita

Dear Sita,
I was told as a child in Catholic school never to bite the little wafer of bread because it was the body and blood of Jesus. Nice stuff to tell a child of 5..... I understand their position perfectly, I just disagree with it. In the end, it is STILL bread and wine, a sacrifice just exactly like that of Cain when you get right down to it. Saying it is flesh and blood does not make it so. In my eyes as a teenager..... and still....... this seemed one of the biggest hypocracies of the Church. ( Yet I never DID get the courage to bite into that little paper thin piece of bread!) In the Old Testament, Cain got in big trouble and was rejected by God because he brought him fruit and vegetables instead of a steak, yet every day of the week God's representative here on earth in my community would drink a little fruit of the grape and share with us all a little piece of unleavened bread..... and try to convince it was a flesh and blood human being we were eating!!!!!!!!!!!! YYYYEEEECCCCHHYHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Among the atrocities that this religion perpetrates on children, this was one of the worst. That and making them say the Confeteor so Holy Mother Church can convince them while they are young that they are terrible sinners......
My mother and one of my many sisters and brothers that my parents could not afford to take good care of, are still devout Catholics and they tell me that a lot of this nonsense has changed. Maybe it has. I never go to church any more and according to that religion, I am on my way straight to hell big time. Unless of course it is no longer a huge mortal sin not go go to Mass.....
I believe I am feeling a little bitter about it all today.
Happy All Saints Day tomorrow.
Regards,
Still Recovering,
A'isha

 

[Sita]

Dear Sita,
I was told as a child in Catholic school never to bite the little wafer of bread because it was the body and blood of Jesus.
Really? If that's true I may be joining you in Hell, (don't worry I'll try and sneak in monoploy, cluedo or something - our wafers are very chewy lately biting is needed (and to be honest a blessed holy tooth pick wouldn't go amiss ) Mind you most places take it in the hand now... so I doubt they can have a go at using your teeth

Nice stuff to tell a child of 5..... I understand their position perfectly, I just disagree with it. In the end, it is STILL bread and wine, a sacrifice just exactly like that of Cain when you get right down to it. Saying it is flesh and blood does not make it so. In my eyes as a teenager..... and still....... this seemed one of the biggest hypocracies of the Church. ( Yet I never DID get the courage to bite into that little paper thin piece of bread!)
In the Old Testament, Cain got in big trouble and was rejected by God because he brought him fruit and vegetables instead of a steak, yet every day of the week God's representative here on earth in my community would drink a little fruit of the grape and share with us all a little piece of unleavened bread..... and try to convince it was a flesh and blood human being we were eating!!!!!!!!!!!! YYYYEEEECCCCHHYHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Among the atrocities that this religion perpetrates on children, this was one of the worst. That and making them say the Confeteor so Holy Mother Church can convince them while they are young that they are terrible sinners......
Well obviously being that I still practise I'm kind of biased on the subject of whether transubstantiation is real or not my post was simply to explain the position of the church because it had already been mentioned. However sacrifice is at the heart of Christianity even that of human sacrifice (see the crucifiction) and the use of the altar - central to Mass and church... the roots of scarfice in Judaisism and other earlier religions whether animal or human are still visible within the churches...(should point out this is in a symbolic way) I think Jung wrote an interesting article on the Mass:think: from a psychology point of view
My mother and one of my many sisters and brothers that my parents could not afford to take good care of, are still devout Catholics and they tell me that a lot of this nonsense has changed. Maybe it has.
Much of it has however it must be said it depends on the Church you go to - there will always be the wacko/zealots with no sense of humour (my main problem with any zealot). However I don't think that's really relevant you obviously has a horrible time - why align with any religion that causes you grief... I always feel that religion or really belief should feel natural to a person - simply it's either for you and you believe or its not and you need to shop around for another one...
I never go to church any more and according to that religion, I am on my way straight to hell big time. Unless of course it is no longer a huge mortal sin not go go to Mass.....
Interesting point... I have never been brought up to think that just because you don't go to Mass you go to Hell or that it's a mortal sin so I couldn't say... (for me I feel God would be more offended by a 'false' attendance) I think it also depends on which or what religious order is the major influence in the area; I was brought up around mainly Jesuit, Franciscan and the Sisters of the Christian Retreat and the Loreto nuns who were incredibly indulgent to children and either rather mellow and hippy like or academic and more on the liberal end of Catholicism... others weren't so lucky...
I believe I am feeling a little bitter about it all today. I'm not suprised
Happy All Saints Day tomorrow. Thank you
Regards,
Still Recovering, wonder if you could charge the therapy bills to the Vatican :think:
A'isha

Sita

 

[Aisha Azar]

Church, etc.

Sita

Dear Sita,
Your quotes did not follow me along here, so I will try to respond in some kind of order.

LOVED the blessed Holy toothpick comment!!!
Re transubstantion, well..... I guess if one does not mind the idea of Long Pig!!
( You catch, clean, cook it and I'll help you eat it?????)

I can only WISH that only zealots had felt like that. I went to various Catholic schools MOST of he time, across the States and in Canada until I was in 10th grade. This was between 1958 and 1968. This was not the zealot's point of view, but the point of view of the Church. Somewhere in there, there was an ecumenical council that changed mass from Latin, let the people in Limbo free to roam outer space or whatever, and made other changes, but it was pretty much too late for those of us who had been brought up under some very Medieval thinking. What was it, at the Nicene council that it was decided Jesus is divine to begin with, and all the churches that did not go along with that were ousted. I started looking it all straight in the eye at about age 12 and realized it was not for me. My parents insisted that I continue to be a Catholic until the very moment that I left home. I consider Catholicism to be twice as restrictive toward women and humans in general than Islam is. Of course, it could be different now. I have not graced a church with my cynical presence in years except once, to hear my niece sing in the choir. ( I will say this for them, they could make some damn incredible music when they were in the mood. I LOVED going to Benediction because of the nun's choir. Of course, if I were a castratti, I might feel differently...)

Anyway, in the end, I am fully aware that there are those who take great solace in Catholicism. I just wish more people would realize that Muslims often get the same things out of their own religion that Christians often get out of their's, the idea that there is some kind of spiritual design and guiding hand in a world where all too often, there appears to be a lot of senselessness unless we have some kind of faith. Even though either religion is not for me, I try to respect that others find them to be a perfect spiritual fit.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[masrawy]

Ya Am,

It's not a big deal...it's a discussion! :lol:

Sometimes when we learn about something 'different', we have to deal with what we see as the biggest differences first.
Or at least the things that jump out at us the most.

Muslim life in the UK has until quite recently been a very closed community.

When 'Nadey al Cul' was set up in Liverpool back in 1996, our aim was to bridge the Arab and non Arab community of Liverpool.

This was how the Arab Arts festival was born, the Arts proved to be the most fruitful and positive way to bring people together.

There is a need generally for more intergration and interaction but people need a forum to say exactly what is on their mind and explore the issues they are interested in.

This needs to be a safe forum where everybody needs to feel listened to and not judged. There are still very few places in the UK where this interchange can happen. Where else can this happen?

Last year I was providing training to youth workers in 'Muslim youth work'.

The main topics raised were all those which are percieved to go against equality (which for most should be a principle of life).
What people eat and drink and do in their spare time was fairly low on the agenda. The delegates needed most all all a space to question their current knowledge and understanding and gave examples.

My co-worker in the training was a disabled Egyptian guy called Khaled Shalaby (who was famous for being the first disabled person to swim the English channel).

Khaled was patient, calm and understanding and made everyone feel at ease.
This approach allowed the particpants to feel ok enough to face some of their feelings around these issues and challenge them.

It only takes one defensive person in the room to send everyone retreating back into their shell.

We all get passionate and impatient, and online I do it more than in life because I dont see the person before me.

We have something valuable going on in this forum, lets keep it going... lets continue to explore and debate important issues.
Let us create an atmosphere which allows this to continue without insult.
Let us continue to challenge ourselves and others but in a way which doesnt exclude people.

Hello Caroline,
Once again you prove to be thoughtful and decent human being. I often question in doubt myself of my actions and sometime I'll regret it (many times) don't tell anyone here. And yes, you're right about dealing online with people you don't see face to face. It's good and bad because you more free to say what you want and at the same time you don't know who you stepped on their toes.
I took Cathy off my ignore list, I can see her posts now. Not that it would make any difference to her ... It is just an olive branch.
Mashe ya set el koul talabatek alla 3ny wee rassey~Mahmoud

 

[AngelaJP]

Religious books/bibles were made by beings not so different from us - humans. I wonder why they had to resort to symbolism and other unclear ways of explaining things and not just wrote or said things straight to the point to avoid various interpretations? Well, the writers of these religious books wrote them based on their own interpretations, for sure?

 

[Sita]

Anyway, in the end, I am fully aware that there are those who take great solace in Catholicism. I just wish more people would realize that Muslims often get the same things out of their own religion that Christians often get out of their's, the idea that there is some kind of spiritual design and guiding hand in a world where all too often, there appears to be a lot of senselessness unless we have some kind of faith. Even though either religion is not for me, I try to respect that others find them to be a perfect spiritual fit.
Regards,
A'isha

I could not agree more :clap:

In regards to the longpig comment thats your opinion I don't see it as anthropophagy but neither do I see a need to debate it particularly as I'm vegetarian so I'm hardly qualified to talk on any subject such as that.(sorry my odd sense of humour) My intention was simply to explain a position that was mentioned not to defend or preach that position.

Sita

P.S castratti... now that is truly suffering and sacrifice for your art and as much as I love art... there are limits IMO and any form of self harm/ body mutilation... well thats time to take up another hobby perhaps knitting

 

[cathy]

Hello Caroline,
Once again you prove to be thoughtful and decent human being. I often question in doubt myself of my actions and sometime I'll regret it (many times) don't tell anyone here. And yes, you're right about dealing online with people you don't see face to face. It's good and bad because you more free to say what you want and at the same time you don't know who you stepped on their toes.
I took Cathy off my ignore list, I can see her posts now. Not that it would make any difference to her ... It is just an olive branch.
Mashe ya set el koul talabatek alla 3ny wee rassey~Mahmoud

Thanks Mahmoud. It does make a difference to me! I appreciate it and if there were an olive branch emoticon I would put it here for you: ______
If you ever make it to a show where I am performing, I will do my humble best to show you how much I love Arab music and dance. :dance:

Cathy

 

[Aisha Azar]

Religions, etc.

I could not agree more :clap:

In regards to the longpig comment thats your opinion I don't see it as anthropophagy but neither do I see a need to debate it particularly as I'm vegetarian so I'm hardly qualified to talk on any subject such as that.(sorry my odd sense of humour) My intention was simply to explain a position that was mentioned not to defend or preach that position.

Sita

P.S castratti... now that is truly suffering and sacrifice for your art and as much as I love art... there are limits IMO and any form of self harm/ body mutilation... well thats time to take up another hobby perhaps knitting

Dear Sita,
I am not sure that in the end the Church gave castratti much of a choice. If they were not willing to make sacrifices for the glory of god, what would happen to them?????? This was truly a very dark side of the religion.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Sita]

Dear Sita,
I am not sure that in the end the Church gave castratti much of a choice. If they were not willing to make sacrifices for the glory of god, what would happen to them?????? This was truly a very dark side of the religion.
Regards,
A'isha

but alas not the darkest (it had to be said)

on the eunuchs and crastatti - It's a cruel and unusual tradition that's found in a few cultures, as you have knowledge in anthropology... does that tell us about such an action it's origin if it appears in any animal behaviour etc?
Sita

 

[masrawy]

an act of God

Thanks Mahmoud. It does make a difference to me! I appreciate it and if there were an olive branch emoticon I would put it here for you: ______
If you ever make it to a show where I am performing, I will do my humble best to show you how much I love Arab music and dance. :dance:

Cathy

Thank you Cathy, your love of Arabic music and dance is sincere and actually, what we both have in common is our nationalistic to what we love. It's what I call being patriotic in another word ... it doesn't matter if you are born in the US or in Egypt, Arabic music and dance is your country.
I'll definitely would love to come to see you performing, by the way I did go to see Tarik but it was an act of God that prevented it. Ask him ....
Best regards~Mahmoud

 

[Aisha Azar]

Religion, etc.

but alas not the darkest (it had to be said)

on the eunuchs and crastatti - It's a cruel and unusual tradition that's found in a few cultures, as you have knowledge in anthropology... does that tell us about such an action it's origin if it appears in any animal behaviour etc?
Sita

Dear Sita,
This is the little that I know about it. Usually people who have been eunuchs were slaves or other types of servants who were gilded like horses are to assure their masters that there was no hanky panky going on, or in some cases, just as a cruel gesture of power over another human being. Among animals, there are some who seem to choose not to have sex as a way to control the size of the group. This happens among wolf groups, for example. I have never heard of animals who actually remove another animal's sexual organs, or their own, ( aside from humans), but I think there are other methods of controlling who gets to have sex and who does not in the animal kingdom, at least to some degree. To my knowledge, none of them does it so that a young animal can continue to have a lovely voice for singing. The Catholic Church is the only group that I have heard of who has gilded human beings for the purpose of having them retain their boyish voices. This does not mean there are no others...
Regards,
A'isha

 

[cathy]

Thank you Cathy, your love of Arabic music and dance is sincere and actually, what we both have in common is our nationalistic to what we love. It's what I call being patriotic in another word ... it doesn't matter if you are born in the US or in Egypt, Arabic music and dance is your country.
I'll definitely would love to come to see you performing, by the way I did go to see Tarik but it was an act of God that prevented it. Ask him ....
Best regards~Mahmoud

I think the word you mean is "allegiance." Fierce devotion or loyalty to what we believe in or care about. Quite a few people on this list have that trait.

I will ask Tarik My next performances are Nov 19 and Nov 26 in Manhattan :dance:

Cathy

 

[Shanazel]

Ah, I love reconciliations and happy endings and olive branches...

 

[masrawy]

I think the word you mean is "allegiance." Fierce devotion or loyalty to what we believe in or care about. Quite a few people on this list have that trait.

I will ask Tarik My next performances are Nov 19 and Nov 26 in Manhattan :dance:

Cathy

Hello Cathy, I think we are communicating now in a higher level of understanding. Believe it or not last Saturday I was going to see Tarik but 12:30 is past my bedtime I guess :redface: . I closed my eyes for a little nap before I go out and guess what happened ... ??

If you kindly posts more information about your performance maybe other member of the forum would be interested to come .. or if you prefer PM me with the info.~Mahmoud

 

[masrawy]

Ah, I love reconciliations and happy endings and olive branches...

BTW Shanazel ...Thank you ~Mahmoud

 

[cathy]

If you kindly posts more information about your performance maybe other member of the forum would be interested to come .. or if you prefer PM me with the info.~Mahmoud

Hi Mahmoud

Sorry I have not logged in for awhile.

Wednesday November 19 performing along with some others--including Tarik! at Lafayette Grill, 54 Franklin Street between Broadway and Lafayette, south of Canal Street in Manhattan. (In Tribeca neighborhood, near Chinatown. Near 1/9 Franklin Street station or Canal Street stations). Show starts around 7 p.m., This place has a big dance performance space and a bar in front, then tables all around the dance floor. They serve a mix of Middle Eastern and Mediterranean food (lamb, moussaka, Greek salad, mezze)

Wednesday November 26 performing along with some others --including Tarik again! at Tagine Dining Gallery, 537 Ninth Avenue between 39th and 40th Street (near Port Authority) Show starts around 7 p.m. This is a much more intimate restaurant that serves Moroccan food including traditional silver-dome-topped tagines, mint tea--and Shisha! Dancers have to go right up close in between tables, no separate stage area.

For performance I go by Bassima (chosen to honor Arabic culture and because the dance does make me smile!)

Take care, Cathy