As a workshop virgin, what should I look for?

[kayshier]

As the thread title implies, what should an inexperienced dancer look for if he/she is looking to attend a workshop?
(I am specifically interested in egyptian style)

is it a matter of asking the organizers or even the person hosting the workshop about what they intend to teach? what kind of questions should I ask?

i don't want to ask about who is good or not good,because it is entirely subjective and in order to avoid conflict i think its best..

but what in your opinion makes a workshop worth attending?

I am going to try to attend quite a few in the coming year, and i don't want to feel as though my money is being wasted.

so..help please?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Other people maybe able to offer good advice but I would say it is trial and error.

A great dancer does not make a great teacher and vice versa.

I would personally stay away from workshops with big numbers and I dont care who is teaching.

Unless the teacher can come to you and personally assist you, then question the validity.

If you are paying alot of money then the teacher should know YOU are there.

I personally dont like workshops which teach choreography as the sole aim.
These workshops mean nothing to me so i avoid them.

Why do i want to go through the motions of someone elses choreography?

I want to learn the tools to create my own and express myself.
I am happy to learn choreography providing the technique is taught as the priority and not reaching the end of the routine.

A choreography is an example of how something fits together, and that is it as far as I am concerned.
Many may disagree.

Choosing a workshop is about identifying your own learning needs and working out who or what is best to meet them.

 

[Samira bint Aya]

Well, I feel that choosing a workshop is always a gamble…but at least it can be an educated gamble.. Quite often the workshop titles are misleading too.

One basic question to ask is weather the instructor intends to teach technique, or weather they will be doing a choreography.

Another important element is weather the teacher will be the person demonstrating the material being taught, or will it be their assistant. Sometimes the workshop can be held almost entirely by the assistant.

Does the instructor have a good command of English? For some Egyptian teachers the preferred teaching method is “follow the bouncing butt technique”. This does not work well for some people (me!)

Practical questions such as “should I bring my own shamadan/sagat/veil?” etc..
Is it a ‘master” class (ie intended for experienced dancers)? Will you be allowed to bring your video camera with you?

Also important in choosing a workshop is word of mouth. Ask around the belly dance community for reviews from people who have previously attended workshops held by the same teacher.

Don’t just judge a teacher by the way she/he dances. Sometimes the best and most talented performers are not good as teachers (Asmahan is such an example, in my opinion).

Others can be very good in teaching, while they may not be the most spectacular performers (such as Nuriyya who works with Hassan Khalil, in my opinion).

Nevertheless, workshops are a lot of fun, even mediocre ones. And there is always something to learn from every teacher, or even fellow dancers who attend the workshop with you.

Oops lengthy response! :shok:
Good luck Kayshier!

 

[kayshier]

pardon me for asking a stupid question
:redface:
but what is.."follow the bouncing butt technique"??

 

[Samira bint Aya]

That’s when the teacher just goes on to dance, without explaining what she is doing. The student is expected to follow and, with a lot of luck, learn.

I guess this is an old form of teaching any art or craft. You will find that by and large international Egyptian teachers (Khaled Mahmoud, Reda, Tito) take time to explain what it is they are doing.

However, I have found that other amazing Egyptian dancers (such as Mona Mustafa) simply expect you to do as they do!

 

[Aniseteph]

Everything Caroline said (are you reading my mind? :shok

I want to learn the tools to create my own and express myself.
I am happy to learn choreography providing the technique is taught as the priority and not reaching the end of the routine.

Me too. :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've been to a few mega workshops - they can be OK for what they are as long as the venue is suitable (enough space, and teacher on a stage) and the price is right. Yasmina of Cairo did a brilliant job of one, she went into the crowd to give people attention. I've been to some small ones where you got no personal attention at all. Partly it's down to the teacher, but I wonder if some of it depends on how advanced you are. I mostly go to general/lower level classes. If I was doing masterclass type ones I would definitely expect small numbers and some personal attention for my money.

I look for teachers I've heard good things about, subjects that are interesting/relevant... and I take the guidance about experience levels and the "learn how to master XYZ" blurb with a hefty pinch of salt. I've never mastered anything much in a workshop. Learnt a bit yes, had a moment of enlightenment if I'm lucky, but mastered...?

 

[Marya]

As the thread title implies, what should an inexperienced dancer look for if he/she is looking to attend a workshop?
(I am specifically interested in egyptian style)

is it a matter of asking the organizers or even the person hosting the workshop about what they intend to teach? what kind of questions should I ask?

i don't want to ask about who is good or not good,because it is entirely subjective and in order to avoid conflict i think its best..

but what in your opinion makes a workshop worth attending?

I am going to try to attend quite a few in the coming year, and i don't want to feel as though my money is being wasted.

so..help please?

Despite the good advice that good dancers do not necessarily make good teachers I have reached the conclusion to not take a workshop with anyone unless I have seen them dance. (whether video or live) If I don't want to learn what they dance then I don't take the workshop.

As an experienced workshop attendee I am willing to take a risk that someone may not be a good teacher if they are teaching something I can't learn any where else. But if you are just starting out as a dancer it would be better to look for a good teacher.

Follow the bouncing butt works ok for me now that I have the basic moves down and have learned how to watch someone dance.

Word of mouth may not be all that helpful, unless you know your own learning style and can ask specific questions about how someone teaches.

Some people are enthusiastic about a teacher but leave out the fact that she or he may throw little tantrums and stamp their feet if attendees are not getting the moves.

Since I am assuming you will have to travel a long ways in order to take workshops it might also be a good investment to try to purchase workshop videos. The lady in Texas (http://www.littleegypt.com/) who brings in all the "name" Egyptians produces videos of the workshops as well so you can see how they teach how good their English and how their interaction with students is. they are expensive but I have learned a lot from them and have a good feeling for which teachers I would enjoy learning from.

Marya

 

[Kashmir]

In choosing a workshop I usually want to know the experience of the tutor - both as a dancer and a teacher. For instance if it is Egyptian folklore - were they in either of the big National troupes (Firqa Kawmiyya or Reda)? For how long? To what level? If you are going for raqs sharqi - get some video of them performing - more than just one dance. Do you like their style?

What teaching experience do they have? - especially with workshops (we got burnt here once with someone with a "profile" who as it turned out had never taught a class of any kind - just a few informal private lessons to non-dancers). If possible ask someone you trust about their teaching style. If you need technical breakdown which is uncommon in my experience with Egyptian teachers (Dr Mo Geddawi being the exception) - be sure that they can and do breakdown combinations.

What is the advertised topic? Does it interest you? (Use it only as a guide - I have attended many workshops where what was taught was only loosely connected to the topic or only took up an hour or so of a full day).

How many will be in the workshops? Will you be able to see the tutor - ie 70 people if there are mirrors and a stage is fine. 40 without either can be frustrating.

What level is it aimed at? Is that where you are at? Do you think that the people attending will fit that profile? (Tutors vary on how they handle unprepared classes, some teach down frustrating the experienced dancers some stick to their guns and get bad mouthed by people who shouldn't have been there)

Try and go for workshops that give at least 2 full days with one tutor. The first day is usually required to get your head and body into their space. You start learning on the second day and by day 4 you'll be flying :dance:

Don't expect individual attention in a workshop - it's not a class. Do expect reasonable questions to be answered (how to do a hip drop is not a reasonable question in most classes, nor ego ravings disguised as a question). If the tutor doesn't speak English there should be a translator on hand - often they get a free workshop for the service or they may be a friend of the tutor.

Don't expect a warmup - ther emay be one but take responsibility of your own warmup before class starts.

Prepare. Make sure you are fit. Don't make flexibilty changes just before the workshop. Bring water, protein bars (to eat within 30 minutes of the day end), a notebook, pen, veil and zills to every class. If it is a sa`iidi clss ask if there will cane used (not always the case). If it is and you are flying into the workshop ask if you can hire a cane from the sponsor. Consider a a video recorder for using after the workshop (or at lunchtime). Go over what you learnt as soon as possible after the class finishes.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

It looks like different countries have different expectations from workshops.

Her in the Uk, only certain people are allowed a 'cattle market' approach to make it OK.

Mirrors or no mirrors.. everyone has to question the value of paying a lot of money to stand in a crowded room if any teacher cannot deliver something meaningful to every single person in that room.
A workshop may not be a class but it is not a performance either or a chance to pay to be in the same room as a 'star'.

Classes are getting bigger around the world and this approach is about making money and nothing more.

This will continue to get worse if people merely accept it as OK, and they frequently do.

I watched a number of workshops at Ahlan this summer with huge numbers in them... a video would have been easier and cheaper option.

90% of what i saw people do was not what the teacher was doing.

What is the point??

can someone explain to me what they get out of this?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Another thought

I was thinking about what people have said aboput seeing people perform first before taking a workshop with them.

I am interested in exploring this if anyone is interested?

It got me thinking about people I have seen dance and did not like it and wondered if I could respect them as a teacher?

I also thought of the workshops i have enjoyed but never saw the teacher dance (name went before them sort of thing), Shareen El Safy, Morocco, Aida Nour (have done so since) etc. etc. I knew them by name only.

If you see someone perform and it is not up to your standard, do you not want to learn from them? does it put you off?

honest answers please

 

[PracticalDancer]

Scale it to where *you* are in your dance

Kayshier,

Everyone raises a lot of very good points; one can tell that there is a wealth of experience here that we can draw on. That said, this is the first time you are going to a workshop, so many of these (again, very valid and useful) tips may not make sense for some time. I think that there are differences in what one should look for when starting to attend (vs. after some experience in attending). I am embarrassed to say that I did not start going to workshops until 2005, after I had been dancing for 4 years; the plus side is that I still remember how I felt . . .

So,

1. How many people have you studied with? One skill we need in our study is to learn how to learn from someone new. If you have only studied with one teacher, you will be developing this at the same time as you are trying to lean the material in the workshop. It can be overwhelming, so pace yourself.
2. How good is your endurance? If you only dance for an hour a week, a 4 hour plus workshop may exhaust you. If you have to travel to and from that day, factor that in, too.
3. Do your teachers like the instructor(s) in that workshop? If you like your teachers, find out if they like that instructor. Details like that will tell you if you can build on what you already know (a good thing), or if you will be tackling new territory (can be a good thing, but is also more demanding).
4. What is the overall value proposition of that workshop? Only you can do the math on this one.

In my case, the first workshop I attended was a one-day, six hour workshop, with three instructors teaching between 1 and 2 hours each (with breaks), and out of town -- it was at the Beach! I went because one of my favorite teachers recommended it as one of the events she attends each year. At that point, I had studied with 4 or 5 different teachers, so I wasn't worried about "sudden teacher confusion" -- I figured I had enough experience in adapting to teaching style that I could manage. I was exhausted by the end of the day; but, since it was at the beach, my husband agreed we could make a long weekend of it, so I had time to recover before we had to drive (4 hours) home. For my mind, that math worked. Of course, I now had a new addiction to contend with.

Caroline, you asked, "If you see someone perform and it is not up to your standard, do you not want to learn from them? does it put you off?" This is actually something I have been struggling with and posed in another thread. I can say it is particularly daunting if you don't discover the issue with the instructor until you are in the workshop. I am at a place in my dance where I am trying to figure out what I can learn even under those circumstances.

Regards,

Anala

 

[Marya]

I was thinking about what people have said aboput seeing people perform first before taking a workshop with them.

I am interested in exploring this if anyone is interested?

It got me thinking about people I have seen dance and did not like it and wondered if I could respect them as a teacher?

I also thought of the workshops i have enjoyed but never saw the teacher dance (name went before them sort of thing), Shareen El Safy, Morocco, Aida Nour (have done so since) etc. etc. I knew them by name only.

If you see someone perform and it is not up to your standard, do you not want to learn from them? does it put you off?

honest answers please

good question as usual Caroline,

It is not a straight forward answer though. I have taken workshops with people whose dancing I did not really like because they could either teach really well (their technique was just fine) or they were teaching something I couldn't get anywhere else.

Mostly it is style that I am looking at, if I don't want to dance like X then why would I want to take a workshop from them? Some dancers teach more than one style and so while I may not want to study Raks Sharki with X I may want to learn Raks Assaya or Gawazee from them.

But it is also knowledge base, does the teacher know more than I do? I am at that point in my dance education where I know more about the music, culture and history than a lot of the big name (USA) dancers out there.

I can tell by watching someone dance what they know about the dance and what it means to them and what kind of person they are. I wasn't able to do this until recently, I had to reach a certain level of understanding myself before I was able to do this. I know this sounds like just blah, blah, blah, but in a way it is like having a conversation with someone (watching them dance). Only this kind of conversation really reveals their soul.

Marya

 

[Oona]

I was thinking about what people have said aboput seeing people perform first before taking a workshop with them.

I am interested in exploring this if anyone is interested?

It got me thinking about people I have seen dance and did not like it and wondered if I could respect them as a teacher?

I also thought of the workshops i have enjoyed but never saw the teacher dance (name went before them sort of thing), Shareen El Safy, Morocco, Aida Nour (have done so since) etc. etc. I knew them by name only.

If you see someone perform and it is not up to your standard, do you not want to learn from them? does it put you off?

honest answers please

Hi Caroline! I've only been dancing for a year but have been to lots of workshops during this time and so will have a go. I think if I see someone perform and don't like their dancing, then yes it does put me off going to their workshop. There are a great many workshops to choose from here in the UK, so I would choose to save my money for a workshop I'm really looking forward to. Money and time are always constraints and I want to make sure I learn from who I really WANT to learn from. I hope this answers your question.

The first thing I do when deciding whether or not I want to take a particular teacher's class is try to find a video of them dancing, be that on you tube, on the teacher's website or other forms of media, if available. This does not always work of course, but most of the time it does. I also have a regular teacher who is very much like me in what she expects from a class. She also knows what I'm like, what my interests are, my personality and my strengths and weaknesses. So, her valued input if always welcome if she's taken from that particular teacher before. Forums like this are also helpful when it comes to finding out people's experiences with certain teachers and the way they teach.

 

[Aniseteph]

I think if I see someone perform and don't like their dancing, then yes it does put me off going to their workshop.

I agree with you. But like Marya said, if they are teaching something I'm really interested in, or their technique is fine and it's just something about their style that isn't my cup of tea, why not. I'd quite like to have a go at sword balancing and at this stage I would be less fussy than I might be with more experience.

And I've seen dancers when I've been too much of a noob to appreciate what I'm seeing and what I might be able to learn from them. It's worth keeping an open mind!

 

[teela]

I am going to bring another point into the discussion. I am a person who due to isolation has to rely on DVD's for my learning most of the year. I started going to workshops about 3 or 4 years ago on a regular basis so I can get some live teaching. I have even attended a workshop of a dancer i'd never heard of but was assured by the organizers that she would be teaching things I would enjoy. What I've found is that I have gotten something out of every workshop I have attended even if it is choreography. Usually I forget my notebook so I never get to write notes down but I do come back with things I can use and think about. I even buy the DVD's from Little Egypt so I can get things I'd never get otherwise. some workshops are great, others not so great BUT I've gotten things out of every one I own. I think I made a decision early on that I would find something worth remembering and I have.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Thanks for all the thoughts and I am still thinking about this one..

Do you think there aresome people who have become more well known through their teaching and personality?

I am thinking of a few people who are very well known, but I didnt think their dancing was very special at all.

I thought it was perhaps my tastes but I also know the difference between a great dancer and someone who is just OK, and it has little to do with taste.

I have asked others about their thoughts and they say... yes, great teacher, person bla la bla ..performance..not really.

What do people think of this?

can people become 'well known' before people learn the difference between what is good and average or what?

Help me fathom this one out please.

 

[Kashmir]

If you see someone perform and it is not up to your standard, do you not want to learn from them? does it put you off?

I wasn't think so much "up to standard" as style. Some styles leave me cold - BDSS spring to mind

But if the dancer's technique is actually poor - as opposed to in a style I don't like - but s/he has a good reputation as a teacher - and the dance isn't actually beginner level. Then yes, I would attend the workshop if it covered something I wanted to learn.

 

[nigma]

When I was a workshop virgin I was happy to take on anything and everything, luckily for me that first festival and following workshops were mainly technique and drill based.

Choreo based workshops seems to be a current trend and although I get something (even if its just one new move) out of each one I find them less rewarding. I don't take notes or video the dance so if something sticks then great. I prefer to improvise.

Raqia Hassan was my first follow the bouncing but style and I got heaps out of it back
then but if I hadn't practised a bit with the old Reda video I may have been at a loss
.
Today though I am more picky and do the research before signing up.
as for the question "would I take a class with them if I thought the performance was not up to scratch?" more than likely Not unless someone I respected raved about then I would consider it.