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  1. #31
    Member Mark_Balahadia's Avatar
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    I have a private tutor to help me with Lebanese dialect and some fus'ha (MSA). The reason why I'm learning Lebanese dialect, for one I specialize in Lebanese style...I also want to sound really snobby!

    I do want to learn Egyptian but only to understand it...

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    V.I.P. Kharmine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia View Post
    I have a private tutor to help me with Lebanese dialect and some fus'ha (MSA). The reason why I'm learning Lebanese dialect, for one I specialize in Lebanese style...I also want to sound really snobby!

    I do want to learn Egyptian but only to understand it...
    I'm intrigued, Mark -- why is Lebanese dialect a snob thing? Or is it you just want to be snobby in Lebanese??

    I took an Arabic class but got very fed up with the pedantic, uninspiring teacher. I'm not sure the formal, academic method is very helpful for learning ordinary, conversational speech.

  3. #33
    Member Mark_Balahadia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    I'm intrigued, Mark -- why is Lebanese dialect a snob thing? Or is it you just want to be snobby in Lebanese??

    I took an Arabic class but got very fed up with the pedantic, uninspiring teacher. I'm not sure the formal, academic method is very helpful for learning ordinary, conversational speech.
    Concerning your Arabic class, MSA and/or fus'ha (Classical Arabic) is not even a spoken language. Back in the day circa 1300 Arabia, everyone spoke fus'ha but no longer. Formal teaching methods are pretty much the only way to learn MSA as it isn't a spoken language except for intellectual fodder, like political news shows etc. For ordinary conversations, colloquial dialects are used. Perhaps, working with a tutor might work better for you as well.

    Ask many non-Lebanese Arabs and they will mention the "snob factor" that the current Beiruti dialect exhibits. This is due is an over-emphasis of certain sounds that lends it to sounding very "French". Also, a number of loan words have been introduced from French and English lending more to the "snob factor".

  4. #34
    V.I.P. shiradotnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia View Post
    Concerning your Arabic class, MSA and/or fus'ha (Classical Arabic) is not even a spoken language. Back in the day circa 1300 Arabia, everyone spoke fus'ha but no longer.
    MSA is considered the language of the Quran, correct? MSA and fus'ha are the same thing, aren't they? Or are they?

    So the modern-day spoken Saudi dialect is not the same as MSA? I had wondered about that.

    Your comments are at odds with what some people have told me - they have claimed that it's good to learn MSA because it will be understood everywhere you go in the Arab world. My response has always been that because of the Egyptian music and movie industries, Egyptian Arabic is also understood throughout the Arab world, and by learning that dialect I enjoy the added benefit of being able to begin comprehending Egyptian song lyrics and movie dialogue myself. I'd rather learn a living language than an academic or liturgical one.

  5. #35
    Member Mark_Balahadia's Avatar
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    Dear Shira,

    Sorry for the confusion! Most Arabs consider MSA and Classical/Qoranic Arabic to be two registers of the same language. More info here: Literary Arabic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As for Saudi Arabic, it depends! Bedouin dialect tends to be more conservative (closer to Classical) usually retaining Classical suffixes while "sedentary" or city dialects like what people speak in the Hejaz region (Mecca, Medina and Jeddah) is more relaxed, shedding many Classical features.

    A commonality in the Gulf, Iraq, and Bedouins is the pronunciation of the "qaf" as a "gaf". For example, "qalb" (heart) becomes "galb".

    I think it's always good to learn fus'ha but for someone who is interested in improving her dancing by knowing what Egyptians song are about, it's probably not very useful. However, just learning Egyptian is not that useful if you want to dance to something in Lebanese or Gulf dialect. So that's why I'm learning fus'ha AND Lebanese dialect.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiradotnet View Post
    MSA is considered the language of the Quran, correct? MSA and fus'ha are the same thing, aren't they? Or are they?

    So the modern-day spoken Saudi dialect is not the same as MSA? I had wondered about that.

    Your comments are at odds with what some people have told me - they have claimed that it's good to learn MSA because it will be understood everywhere you go in the Arab world. My response has always been that because of the Egyptian music and movie industries, Egyptian Arabic is also understood throughout the Arab world, and by learning that dialect I enjoy the added benefit of being able to begin comprehending Egyptian song lyrics and movie dialogue myself. I'd rather learn a living language than an academic or liturgical one.

  6. #36
    V.I.P. shiradotnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia View Post
    Dear Shira,

    Sorry for the confusion! Most Arabs consider MSA and Classical/Qoranic Arabic to be two registers of the same language. More info here: Literary Arabic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As for Saudi Arabic, it depends! Bedouin dialect tends to be more conservative (closer to Classical) usually retaining Classical suffixes while "sedentary" or city dialects like what people speak in the Hejaz region (Mecca, Medina and Jeddah) is more relaxed, shedding many Classical features.

    A commonality in the Gulf, Iraq, and Bedouins is the pronunciation of the "qaf" as a "gaf". For example, "qalb" (heart) becomes "galb".

    I think it's always good to learn fus'ha but for someone who is interested in improving her dancing by knowing what Egyptians song are about, it's probably not very useful. However, just learning Egyptian is not that useful if you want to dance to something in Lebanese or Gulf dialect. So that's why I'm learning fus'ha AND Lebanese dialect.
    Mark, thanks so much for the response - it was very helpful! Whew, in a perfect world it would be nice to understand ALL the dialects, but right now learning Egyptian dialect is consuming all the time I'm able to give to it. Good luck learning two at the same time!

  7. #37
    V.I.P. Sita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_Balahadia View Post
    Dear Shira,

    Sorry for the confusion! Most Arabs consider MSA and Classical/Qoranic Arabic to be two registers of the same language. More info here: Literary Arabic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As for Saudi Arabic, it depends! Bedouin dialect tends to be more conservative (closer to Classical) usually retaining Classical suffixes while "sedentary" or city dialects like what people speak in the Hejaz region (Mecca, Medina and Jeddah) is more relaxed, shedding many Classical features.

    A commonality in the Gulf, Iraq, and Bedouins is the pronunciation of the "qaf" as a "gaf". For example, "qalb" (heart) becomes "galb".

    I think it's always good to learn fus'ha but for someone who is interested in improving her dancing by knowing what Egyptians song are about, it's probably not very useful. However, just learning Egyptian is not that useful if you want to dance to something in Lebanese or Gulf dialect. So that's why I'm learning fus'ha AND Lebanese dialect.
    Mark these posts are fascinating thank you very much for posting them.
    Sita

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    V.I.P. Kharmine's Avatar
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    Mark, thanks for explaining the "snob factor"!

    I'm not surprised as there seems to be a snob factor with other languages. Asian friends have told me of the pronounciations and different word usages that make a dialect sound "rural" or "urban" to their ears. My mother speaks an antiquated form of Castilian that modern Spaniards would probably regard as "quaint."

    I'd like to be able to read classical Arabic, but I suspect my best bet for conversational Arabic would be one of those travel-oriented classes focused on what's spoken where I want to visit.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiradotnet View Post
    MSA is considered the language of the Quran, correct? MSA and fus'ha are the same thing, aren't they? Or are they?

    So the modern-day spoken Saudi dialect is not the same as MSA? I had wondered about that.

    Your comments are at odds with what some people have told me - they have claimed that it's good to learn MSA because it will be understood everywhere you go in the Arab world. My response has always been that because of the Egyptian music and movie industries, Egyptian Arabic is also understood throughout the Arab world, and by learning that dialect I enjoy the added benefit of being able to begin comprehending Egyptian song lyrics and movie dialogue myself. I'd rather learn a living language than an academic or liturgical one.
    Hey Shira,

    I'm jumping into this late.
    MSA is not the language of the Quran, exactly.
    You can think about it in the sense of a timeline.

    MSA and Quranic Arabic are the same but one is old and one is new.

    so Quranic Arabic- classical arabic/fusha of the old times
    Modern Standard Arabic-MSA- ALSO fush7a/classical but new

    what is the distinction between the two???
    mostly vocab, some stylistic things

    so for example, in the 7th century there was no word for car or plane or elevator?
    guess why? those things didn't exist back then

    so MSA has all of this new vocabulary that quranic classical arabic lacks
    for example, the word for plane is the same root as the word for bird etc.....
    (arabic has a root system)

    NB: many Arabs in the arab world dont know the term MSA its a western term really in arabic MSA= al arabiya al fus7a al mo3asira
    but in reality among the people MSA=fus7a
    they just call it ALL fus7a (or in Lebanon sometimes they say fasee7)

    as for saudi, no they dont speak MSA
    no Arab speaks MSA as their like colloquial dialect
    people argue that saudi arabic is closest to classical, but thats contestable too imho
    yes its the most conservative, doesnt make it the closest imho
    I hope that helps.

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