How far should we go..

[lizaj]

Lizaj, I may not agree with you in all things but I admire and respect your principles and your right to express them. You don't fit in the box and you "put your money where your mouth is." When we eventually meet I'm quite sure I may even like you! :shok:

But that leaves me with the genuine (rhetorical) question, how do you feel about dancing with people of a different political persuasion to you? I guess the question I'm posing is how far does one takes one's political principles when it comes down to dance?

Mostly it is governments and their actions I dislike.Individuals are different and I'll not judge someone on face value ever. I would not expect to discuss politics with a big P at a dance event but should it arise and a fascist, racist etc started spouting race hatred and was not told to shut up, I'd be off out of their company! Obviously when Politics rears its' head in conversation, I'll give my view. Some of my closest friends have been a lot more right-wing than I (one described me as the "nicest socialist" he had ever met!:lol and we have managed to co-exist.
Years ago friends of my South African aunt visited us in the UK. This was in the days of Apartheid. This couple started to discuss with my mother the "Bliks/Kafirs" in the most racist and unpleasant terms and my sister and I walked out of the room. When they had gone, we expected to be reprimanded by my mother for being "rude" to guests but no, she told us she had to try very hard not walk out herself and she had managed to turn the conversation and so avoided throwing them out!She was pleased we had made the point.

 

[Lydia]

If people and politics are inseparable, where does one draw the line?

Lydia's example of Idi Amin was a good one but even that isn't clear cut (very few things are). For example, if Lydia was dancing at a venue and Idi Amin turned out to be in the audience, should she walk out in protest and disappoint a bunch of innocent people? (or refuse to go on stage until the venue has been exorcised, since he's long dead).

What flavour of politics does one have to have to become undanceable for/with?

Tony Blair took Britain into Iraq, Gordon Brown didn't outright condemn Israel for the attack on Gaza, does that rank them with George Bush and Ehud Olmert?

In order to make the grade as "politically acceptable" does a teacher have to hand out a political questionaire to all her new students and reject all applicants who tick the "Tory" box?

What about the many Middle Eastern countries which regularly imprison and torture confessions from political dissenters? How come they are OK when the United States under Bush wasn't?

Thankfully most dancers my wife and I know dance for fun and friendship. Politics don't enter into our normal conversations and if they do we each respect the others' right to differ. Our own best friends in dance hold diametrically opposed political views to ourselves and are Pagan/Goth/Muslim types against our conservative evangelical Judeo/Christian types. Through dance we've come to love each other like (theoretical) brothers and sisters.

Hi Granddad...if Idi Amin would be sitting in a crowd with people ,i would not walk out i would dance ! because the other people i would love to dance for, but mr Idi would have a nice meeting with my Saidy stick,nice and innocent during the show hahahaha:lol:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

What flavour of politics does one have to have to become undanceable for/with?

Tony Blair took Britain into Iraq, Gordon Brown didn't outright condemn Israel for the attack on Gaza, does that rank them with George Bush and Ehud Olmert?

We are discussing politics on a forum, just like you are.

In order to make the grade as "politically acceptable" does a teacher have to hand out a political questionaire to all her new students and reject all applicants who tick the "Tory" box?

I dont understand this really. What has this got to do with anything being discussed?

What about the many Middle Eastern countries which regularly imprison and torture confessions from political dissenters? How come they are OK when the United States under Bush wasn't?

Can you quote where someone said this was OK? I must have missed this.

Thankfully most dancers my wife and I know dance for fun and friendship.

Yes, we all wiggle happily in the wilderness oblivious to everything.

Politics don't enter into our normal conversations and if they do we each respect the others' right to differ.

Our own best friends in dance hold diametrically opposed political views to ourselves and are Pagan/Goth/Muslim types against our conservative evangelical Judeo/Christian types. Through dance we've come to love each other like (theoretical) brothers and sisters.

Are you any different to anyone else? what type of frinds do you think the rest of us keep?

I think you are getting confused with what people are saying here (and on other threads)... just a suggestion.

 

[PracticalDancer]

Anala, your post reminded me ....again this is hypothetical for me too as I am not professional dancer nor ever intend to pursue it professionally...but I would not dance at a place where the owner or manager wanted me to sit in customers' laps, flirt with customers, etc. I know it is easy for me to say simply BECAUSE I am not a professional dancer though. I would not feel comfortable with body tips from men either, but hey, it's not an issue for me. I have also been horrified to hear about owner/managers approaching pretty girls in the audience and asking them if they dance...just because they obviously don't know OR CARE whether the performer knows the first thing about dance, only looking good in a costume. Sheesh. But again it's easy for me to draw this line because I don't want or need money from dancing.

Cathy

Cathy,

I fear I may have given an inappropriate impression here -- I will try to clarify without giving enough information to reveal the identities of those involved in my scenario, for it appeared that questionable ethics were at play, but it could have just been a simple convergence of unfortunate events:

This was not a situation of a "businessman" taking advantage of dancers. Thank goodness. Rather, (sigh) it was of another dancer who appeared to be taking financial advantage of those in her community.

There was a local dancer who set up one of these social networking sites where one can arrange gatherings of people with similar interests. Very shortly after she set up the site, she advertised a gathering that was actually run by a group I was in. Except that our event was free (no admission charge) and the site listed it as $10. I couldn't get through to the payment screen to see where the money would go without joining her site -- but, as a member of the sponsoring group I can say that we had not arranged for her to charge for the event or collect funds on our behalf. If someone paid, it appeared to go into her pocket and without notifying us.

Now, when we talked about it, it did appear that she was confusing our free event with a second event in our series that did have an admission fee. She promised she would have paid us the proceeds once collected; in fact, she said she was trying to advertise for us! There was a feature of the site that allowed collecting money, so she just thought it would be easier on everyone. And, she promised to refund money that anyone had paid. We had to take her word for it on all of these "mitigating factors." At the same time, though, we would not be able to tell if she did refund the money or not.

This is hard for me to write about because it is one of those situations where honest mistakes could be misinterpreted -- or, heaven forbid, where someone tries to pass off negative intentions as honest mistakes. I am trying to take care in writing this so that I do not come across as accusatory while still showing the ethical dilemma I saw in the situation.

So, in my case it was truly a question of whether to offer the benefit of the doubt; or, to look at a sequence of questionable events and pass judgement. to me, this type of local politics is "stickier" to muddle through than international politics. I will likely never find Mr. Amin in my audience; but, I will see Ms. Ten Bucks at workshops and other events. So, I will have to use split second judgement every time and pray that I make the right choice.

Regards,

Anala

 

[Granddad]

Lydia:

Lizaj:

Caroline:

As salâm ‘alekum

 

[Lydia]

wow thanks granddad!! have a great day!!

 

[Reen.Blom]

How far should we go in order to seperate politics from ME dance?

We have discussed 'what is politics?' but what line do you draw in the sand?

Would you dance/perfrom in a country with poor human rights? would you vist a festival in a war torn country? would you boycott a haflah because the teacher slagged off other teachers in your area?

What is your politics and where do you find it hard to draw the line and why??

Please join in the discussion even if you are not a performer/teacher

As for the human rights issue, I believe the contrary would be beneficial. It is the common people suffer from the regimes, and in most cases there are already hypocrytical sanctions on the country already (that in most cases does nothing to the regime) and by ignoring a hafla or festival one does NOTHING to the regime, but deprives the ordinary people of something valuble?

Although I do believe in standing up against injustice, but i see no point in, say, ignoring a certain brand of coffee because that would just give me a false feeling that I am doing something to change the world when in fact I do nothing.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

As for the human rights issue, I believe the contrary would be beneficial. It is the common people suffer from the regimes, and in most cases there are already hypocrytical sanctions on the country already (that in most cases does nothing to the regime) and by ignoring a hafla or festival one does NOTHING to the regime, but deprives the ordinary people of something valuble?

Although I do believe in standing up against injustice, but i see no point in, say, ignoring a certain brand of coffee because that would just give me a false feeling that I am doing something to change the world when in fact I do nothing.

Yes there are relevany pionts in there but what are you refferring to in particular?

The world boycotted South Africa and Nelson Mandela was freed and went onto be President.

Look at Isreal as an example, no squeeze has ever been made on them, no sanctions just a little pathtic verbal slapping and what did that tell the Isreali government?? yes, you can do it again because it will not affect you.

I hate it when innocent peole suffer but hay... thats exactly what happend in Gaza.

I personally will not forget what happend for a long time.

It will be interesting to see how many people will refrain from going to Egypt because of the recent bomb blast but didnt mind/or wopuldnt have minded going to Isreal for a festival in the middle of one of the worst genocides this century.

 

[lizaj]

Graciously received Grand dad. belated birthday bunch of lovely big daisies ( which I happen to love!):yay:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Lydia:

Lizaj:

Caroline:

As salâm ‘alekum

Aleekum is salem!

 

[Reen.Blom]

Yes there are relevany pionts in there but what are you refferring to in particular?

The world boycotted South Africa and Nelson Mandela was freed and went onto be President.

Look at Isreal as an example, no squeeze has ever been made on them, no sanctions just a little pathtic verbal slapping and what did that tell the Isreali government?? yes, you can do it again because it will not affect you.

I hate it when innocent peole suffer but hay... thats exactly what happend in Gaza.

I personally will not forget what happend for a long time.

It will be interesting to see how many people will refrain from going to Egypt because of the recent bomb blast but didnt mind/or wopuldnt have minded going to Isreal for a festival in the middle of one of the worst genocides this century.

Unfortunatly I am not as full of faith in World justice.... South Africa is also a weird example as any of such boycotts causes common people pain, like maybe food shortage in SA during boycott.... I suppose some innocent childrens hunger is nothing compared of the wonderful change that was achieved (which I think happened cos of more reasons than just world boycott).... I just dont want to be the one to decide who must sacrifice what...

ANd why noone has boycotted Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe? I suppose the country has no oil or diamonds or other world importance....

All that politics is way too hypocritical to MY taste...

I dont want to talk about it, but i just myself come from a country that has been arena for two-faced 'boycotts' and i HAVE seen that NOTHING is donefor the people if there are bigger political and military influences at stake.

Eveyone is entitled to their opinion.

I would not mind going to Israel. Not to support the politics, but to support the PEOPLE, who regardless of what they support and what they believe in will be treated as criminals by other nations. After all a little person in most countries just wants a happy home, and not go to war. And this little person is so often helpless in this BIGGER game of political and military influence. After all children dont wage wars. But they dont deserve to suffer or be hungry even if their parents commit crimes.

Just my little perspective.

 

[Kharis]

It will be interesting to see how many people will refrain from going to Egypt because of the recent bomb blast but didnt mind/or wopuldnt have minded going to Isreal for a festival in the middle of one of the worst genocides this century.

There was a documentary not so long ago shown in the UK about an 'orphanage/institute' in Bulgaria. Basically, kids are incarcerated there and left to rot, deprived of even basic human contact and care until they literally went mad. One boy has been locked away for nothing more than being blind, now his mind is gone from the neglect. Some were so thin and emaciated they could not walk. I cried and cried, and vowed I would never visit Bulgaria...and I won't. I know there is so much cruelty in the world in various forms, and even in places we would not expect it, but this really hit home for me so Bulgaria is off the holiday itinerary. Sometimes you just have to make a stand, even if its with just one thing that seems to resonate in your soul.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

There was a documentary not so long ago shown in the UK about an 'orphanage/institute' in Bulgaria. Basically, kids are incarcerated there and left to rot, deprived of even basic human contact and care until they literally went mad. One boy has been locked away for nothing more than being blind, now his mind is gone from the neglect. Some were so thin and emaciated they could not walk. I cried and cried, and vowed I would never visit Bulgaria...and I won't. I know there is so much cruelty in the world in various forms, and even in places we would not expect it, but this really hit home for me so Bulgaria is off the holiday itinerary. Sometimes you just have to make a stand, even if its with just one thing that seems to resonate in your soul.

Unless you visit with the intention of taking toys to the orphanage or something? I remember sending all my older girls toys off to a collection for orphangaes in Romania years ago. The school had arranged to go with a convoy of coaches and lorries.. do you remeber it?

I am taking a group to Cairo in 2 months and we are collecting grils and womens clothing to take to the orphanage there.

I have visited a few quite a few times over the years. It is upsetting but nothing like what you are talking about in Bulgaria. I was upset because of the lonely life many of these women have led because of their abandonment.

Things are changing in Egypt now but I was told by the manager that girls used to be adopted to be raised as housekeepers and servants.

One of the girls I take clothes to is in college training to be a nurse.
I take her fashionable clothes like jeans and tops etc.
One persons cast offs can bring the most unbelievable pleasure to some.

We can all make someone smile with even the most simplistic gesture.

 

[sultan]

''What is your politics and where do you find it hard to draw the line and why??''


When I first joined this forum, I indicated that belly dance/Oriental dance is sacred and listed several biblical verses to show that it was performed in religious services. Yeah, I know that may sound comical to some. But not to me. As before, the Bible teaches that dance is to be used to praise or honor the divinity. In Psalm 149:3 we are told to ''praise his name in dance - let them sing praises unto him with timbrel and harp.'' Both instruments being commonly used in BD.

So many nations today (the USA included) claim to adhere to biblical law. And it's time for them to practice what they preach.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

''What is your politics and where do you find it hard to draw the line and why??''

When I first joined this forum, I indicated that belly dance/Oriental dance is sacred

I think just 'dance' might be more accurate and the term 'Oriental' did not exsist at this time... sorry am I being pedantic?

and listed several biblical verses to show that it was performed in religious services. Yeah, I know that may sound comical to some. But not to me. As before, the Bible teaches that dance is to be used to praise or honor the divinity. In Psalm 149:3 we are told to ''praise his name in dance - let them sing praises unto him with timbrel and harp.'' Both instruments being commonly used in BD.

So many nations today (the USA included) claim to adhere to biblical law. And it's time for them to practice what they preach.

I dont know about people who claim to adhere to Biblical law, there are people of many faiths in the USA and around the globe.