Badia Masabni article

[Caroline_afifi]

Dear Caroline,
WOW!! Am I going to Cairo again this year????????????? I didn't know, but now I am very excited. I will have to call Hallah and let her know I am usurping her guest bedroom again! LOL!! (I think you have me confused with someone else. I went last April but am staying home this year, but thanks for wishing me to be going back so soon!!)

Oh what a classic! lucky I didnt change my flight!! :lol:

Did somebody open up an old thread about the Nilegroup festival or what??

I thought your post was recent and you were departing back to the USA on the 26th and I arrive the 30th.. (perhaps I am just going nuts)

Oh well, at least I now know I will not miss you by a few days... :lol:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Cosmopolitan Egypt

<snip>
The one thing we consistently leave out of these conversations, and by "we" I mean just about everyone, is that early worldview affects every single thing a person does. Masabni's worldview, from birth and onward was Arab. The way she processed and filtered information was Arab. The way she danced was Arab, whether or not there were Hollywood or other influences there. Her native language, her cultural roots shaped the way she thought, the way she reacted, etc, as is true of every person alive.By the time she moved to Argentina, she was already affected by an Arab worldview. We fail to take this into consideration so many times when we discuss the outside influences on the native dancers. They do very distinctly Arab things with those outside influences and this is why I refuse to give the West credit for being that influential on the dance. It IS an Arab dance, through and through!!
<snip>

It is true that regardless of the foreign influences in Egypt, what was created was something that was still essentially Egyptian, (I said exactly that). This happens with every culture. This is precisely why the dance in America is essentially an AMERICAN dance regardless of the fact that it is of Middle Eastern origin. When people borrow elements from other cultures, they always assimilate them from the perspective of their cultural imprint and world view. Like when I was in Trinidad my friends took my to have some "American food", pizza. Except that they used cheddar cheese instead of mozzarella and then they'd slather it with ketchup and mustard!

This is why we have to work so hard to learn and express the dance from an Egyptian aesthetic and they don't. So while Raks Sharki as we know it could not have developed without those foreign elements and concepts, what they created was something that was still Egyptian. They may have borrowed the concept of traveling in space from ballroom, but they executed it with the body language of an Egyptian and with an emotional interpretation of the music that was Egyptian. We still have to acknowledge the different elements that contributed to its development, but pointing this out in no way diminishes from it being a product of Egyptian culture and artistic ingenuity.

 

[gypsy8522]

Ahmed Rami was married but was in love with Um Kultoum.
It was 'well known' his wife accepted his love for her as she understood him as a passionate poet. All gossip of course.

A lot of men loved Om Kalthoum including the king, that doesn't mean she loved them back. I was actually thinking about naguib el Rehani who was in a relationship with Badia, that's why I went back and changed it.

Badia Masabni had connections with many people in the field, she knew Ahmed Rami really well, amongst many others. It was said that she was not the loving kind and the only thing she cared about was her casino and money.

Who was Gina's mother? and who was Badia's first husband?

Do you work for the Egyptian version of Hello Magazine by any chance? :lol:

Gina's mother is supposedly some french woman whom Naguib secretly had a relationship with. I don't know who Badia's first husband is, but I know that she could not inherit Naguib's fortune because the church would not accept her marriage.

No, I don't work for the Masri Hello. Do you have a job offer for me? :lol:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

A lot of men loved Om Kalthoum including the king, that doesn't mean she loved them back. I was actually thinking about naguib el Rehani who was in a relationship with Badia, that's why I went back and changed it.

OOH no, I gathered the obsession was on his part.

Badia Masabni had connections with many people in the field, she knew Ahmed Rami really well, amongst many others. It was said that she was not the loving kind and the only thing she cared about was her casino and money.

mmm... I can see how this lifestyle can harden you.

Gina's mother is supposedly some french woman whom Naguib secretly had a relationship with. I don't know who Badia's first husband is, but I know that she could not inherit Naguib's fortune because the church would not accept her marriage.

No, I don't work for the Masri Hello. Do you have a job offer for me? :lol:

I dont but Hello Should!

how the heck do you know all this gossip at your tender age?? you are still in mini skirts for goodness sake..:lol:

 

[LynetteSerpent]

bad formatting of article fixed, I hope

Please excuse me for popping in 2 pages late. I was just informed about this thread's existance. I just wanted to let you know that I think the formatting problems on the Badia article should now be fixed. It was not lazy web design, just ignorant. Those who were having problems seemed to be using Internet Explorer 6. There is a free upgrade available! In the last month, I have been spending many hours and dollars upgrading my webskills from the archaic times of 10 years ago. We also posted 19 articles at the same time. Please be patient as I am learning as fast as I can. I appreciate direct notes if you do find problems instead of assuming that I don’t care.

Thanks to Jalilah too for her patience. More wonderful content is coming and more upgrades to the site. I appreciated the feedback. Now you can go back to your discussion and I’ll go work on the next video!
Thanks again,
Lynette
editor@gildedserpent.com

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Please excuse me for popping in 2 pages late. I was just informed about this thread's existance. I just wanted to let you know that I think the formatting problems on the Badia article should now be fixed. It was not lazy web design, just ignorant. Those who were having problems seemed to be using Internet Explorer 6. There is a free upgrade available! In the last month, I have been spending many hours and dollars upgrading my webskills from the archaic times of 10 years ago. We also posted 19 articles at the same time. Please be patient as I am learning as fast as I can. I appreciate direct notes if you do find problems instead of assuming that I don’t care.

Thanks to Jalilah too for her patience. More wonderful content is coming and more upgrades to the site. I appreciated the feedback. Now you can go back to your discussion and I’ll go work on the next video!
Thanks again,
Lynette


editor@gildedserpent.com

Ok, thanks for explaining.

 

[kayshier]

<snip>
The one thing we consistently leave out of these conversations, and by "we" I mean just about everyone, is that early worldview affects every single thing a person does. Masabni's worldview, from birth and onward was Arab. The way she processed and filtered information was Arab. The way she danced was Arab, whether or not there were Hollywood or other influences there. Her native language, her cultural roots shaped the way she thought, the way she reacted, etc, as is true of every person alive.By the time she moved to Argentina, she was already affected by an Arab worldview. We fail to take this into consideration so many times when we discuss the outside influences on the native dancers. They do very distinctly Arab things with those outside influences and this is why I refuse to give the West credit for being that influential on the dance. It IS an Arab dance, through and through!!
<snip>

It is true that regardless of the foreign influences in Egypt, what was created was something that was still essentially Egyptian, (I said exactly that). This happens with every culture. This is precisely why the dance in America is essentially an AMERICAN dance regardless of the fact that it is of Middle Eastern origin. When people borrow elements from other cultures, they always assimilate them from the perspective of their cultural imprint and world view. Like when I was in Trinidad my friends took my to have some "American food", pizza. Except that they used cheddar cheese instead of mozzarella and then they'd slather it with ketchup and mustard!

This is why we have to work so hard to learn and express the dance from an Egyptian aesthetic and they don't. So while Raks Sharki as we know it could not have developed without those foreign elements and concepts, what they created was something that was still Egyptian. They may have borrowed the concept of traveling in space from ballroom, but they executed it with the body language of an Egyptian and with an emotional interpretation of the music that was Egyptian. We still have to acknowledge the different elements that contributed to its development, but pointing this out in no way diminishes from it being a product of Egyptian culture and artistic ingenuity.

now you see if we had actually met when you were here, I wouldn't have taken you to mario's pizza or pizza hut (where i suspect you went) but Joe's, Papa John's or Risotrante Gibraldi...they use mozzarella on their pizza's and you definitely don't need ketchup to eat them!!!! :tongue:

points well noted btw.

 

[Mya]

now you see if we had actually met when you were here, I wouldn't have taken you to mario's pizza or pizza hut (where i suspect you went) but Joe's, Papa John's or Risotrante Gibraldi...they use mozzarella on their pizza's and you definitely don't need ketchup to eat them!!!! :tongue:

points well noted btw.

I thought the same thing! :lol:

 

[Tarik Sultan]

now you see if we had actually met when you were here, I wouldn't have taken you to mario's pizza or pizza hut (where i suspect you went) but Joe's, Papa John's or Risotrante Gibraldi...they use mozzarella on their pizza's and you definitely don't need ketchup to eat them!!!! :tongue:

points well noted btw.

Yeah, but what would have been the fun in that? Pizza hut is ..... corporate American Pizza, Marios is Trini Pizza!:lol:

 

[Kashmir]

3. They began using the term Sharki to differentiate it from the Western dances.

"The term Raqs Sharqi first came about when Egypt was occupied by foreign powers. "Raqs Sharqi", which actually translates as "Oriental Dance” or “Eastern Dance”, was used to distinguish the dance from European, or western, dances. ("Orient” as opposed to “occident”.)


4. The fact that the term Baladi is often used in the same way to denote the native dance of the region as versus foreign dances. Therefore, the terms Sharki and Baladi are sometimes used interchangeably depending on the context.

In the same way, “Raqs Baladi” was used to differentiate between "native" or "local" dance and foreign dances.

Interestingly, this use conflicts with Dr Mo Geddawi's research. He believes that raqs sharqi was adopted to differentiate the dance in the nightclubs from that of the ordinary people (raqs beledi).

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I personally think both of the above are true.

I am not sure it is actually possible to pin down a definition that wont be contradicted somewhere else.

I was having a discussion the other day with an Egyptian who said there is no such thing as 'Beledi' music and dance. It was an interesting conversation.

PS trying to pin down 'Shaabi' is even better!

 

[Aisha Azar]

Geddawi

Interestingly, this use conflicts with Dr Mo Geddawi's research. He believes that raqs sharqi was adopted to differentiate the dance in the nightclubs from that of the ordinary people (raqs beledi).

Dear Kashnir,
I have found that Gedawwi's researches seem to be very sensible as compared to many others, which seem constantly try to shift things to look like we can somehow give credit to the West for just about any aspect of the dance, I respect him very much.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Interestingly, this use conflicts with Dr Mo Geddawi's research. He believes that raqs sharqi was adopted to differentiate the dance in the nightclubs from that of the ordinary people (raqs beledi).

They are both right. Just as in other areas of life, there are usually more than one reason why things are done.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Beledi

I personally think both of the above are true.

I am not sure it is actually possible to pin down a definition that wont be contradicted somewhere else.

I was having a discussion the other day with an Egyptian who said there is no such thing as 'Beledi' music and dance. It was an interesting conversation.

PS trying to pin down 'Shaabi' is even better!

Dear Caroline,
I have heard from Egyptians also that there is nothing called "Beledi" music..... interesting. I have heard them refer to stuff I would call Beledi as Saidi, however. I think of Saidi as the stuff like Metcal Ghanawi plays, but apparently it has a further meaning outside dance/music circles. I think that we often expect the average to respond to what are actually terms used in certain ways by dancers...???
I could be remembering this incorrectly, but I think that Edwina Nearing said the the Ghawazi called their dances Shaabi. ( They were known to perform 7 separate styles of dance when Edwina was spending time with them.) I would have to locate and dig out my old Habibis from the1970s to look that one up!!
Regards,
Aisha

 

[Kharmine]

Interestingly, my riq teacher just taught me a little Middle Eastern rhythm she said originally was known as something else but because Westerners called it "baladi," Egyptians began referring to it by that name, as well.

Caroline, thanks for sharing the article, regardless of the problems.

The more information we have, the more we notice patterns and discover sources that give substance to stories not previously backed up. Otherwise, all we'd have are stand-alone tales credited to people we know little or nothing about.

I remember reading that Badia had married that actor gent someone named here -- he published his memoirs and in it accused her of being very jealous and once breaking a chair over his head. She was known to pack heat on the job, too.

I've also read somewhere that Badia's memoirs are not completely truthful, but that's not surprising in show-business, politics or almost anything else.

It would be nice if someone could write a factual biography with more background to all the questions we have. The really interesting thing to me is how Badia and other cabaret managers of the day, musicians and dancers integrated a whole range of North African folkloric dance traditions together, mxed in some Western culture, and produced this strikingly Middle Eastern art form.

 

[shiradotnet]

Interestingly, this use conflicts with Dr Mo Geddawi's research. He believes that raqs sharqi was adopted to differentiate the dance in the nightclubs from that of the ordinary people (raqs beledi).

Interesting. Mahmoud Reda dismisses raqs sharqi as term he doesn't use at all. He uses raqs baladi to refer to both the social dance of the ordinary people and the theatrical artifice of the nightclub.

I tend to see merit in both Mo Geddawi's research and the notion of distinguishing belly dance from the European-style dances (such as French cancan) that were also presented in the nightclubs.

 

[Kharmine]

In reading the article again I was struck by how much Western influence was incorporated in the development of the dance by way of music, choreography, staging, costumes -- and yet raks sharki remains a very Eastern dance.

I hope the important distinction is noted here: I'm not saying that "the West" gets to claim more than its due to the development of raks sharki.

BTW, I don't think the clip that accompanies the article is on the forum yet so I'm going to put it in the YouTube section. It's the only one I've ever seen with Badia Masabni herself, plus some of her dancers, are performing at her nightclub in the early 30s.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

In reading the article again I was struck by how much Western influence was incorporated in the development of the dance by way of music, choreography, staging, costumes -- and yet raks sharki remains a very Eastern dance.

I hope the important distinction is noted here: I'm not saying that "the West" gets to claim more than its due to the development of raks sharki.

BTW, I don't think the clip that accompanies the article is on the forum yet so I'm going to put it in the YouTube section. It's the only one I've ever seen with Badia Masabni herself, plus some of her dancers, are performing at her nightclub in the early 30s.

But when Westerners come learn it, it does not feel Western at all... and to some feels alien! :lol:

I think various 'showy' bits and stageing are taken/shared with the West, giving perhaps and image and feel to the dance, but it is the Eastern moves and energy which make it really what it is.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

But when Westerners come learn it, it does not feel Western at all... and to some feels alien! :lol:

I think various 'showy' bits and stageing are taken/shared with the West, giving perhaps and image and feel to the dance, but it is the Eastern moves and energy which make it really what it is.

Exactly. But this is just the age old process of civilization. Our alphabet is derived from the Latin script of the Romans, who developed it from the Greeks, who borrowed the alphabet from the Phoenicians who developed it from the Egyptians. Regardless of where they got it from English, Latin and Greek all have their own identities because the concept was adapted to fit those unique cultures. So the fact that Sharki borrowed certain elements from Western Dance doesn't make it any less Egyptian, because those elements are being expressed through an Egyptian aesthetic for movement and response to music. The Egyptian Ballet on the other hand is different because they are using a foreign movement vocabulary and expressing it in the exact same way it is done in the West. That is an example of a total transplant rather than borrowing to express something native.

 

[Kharmine]

Exactly. But this is just the age old process of civilization. Our alphabet is derived from the Latin script of the Romans, who developed it from the Greeks, who borrowed the alphabet from the Phoenicians who developed it from the Egyptians. Regardless of where they got it from English, Latin and Greek all have their own identities because the concept was adapted to fit those unique cultures. So the fact that Sharki borrowed certain elements from Western Dance doesn't make it any less Egyptian, because those elements are being expressed through an Egyptian aesthetic for movement and response to music. The Egyptian Ballet on the other hand is different because they are using a foreign movement vocabulary and expressing it in the exact same way it is done in the West. That is an example of a total transplant rather than borrowing to express something native.

Yes. There are many things all over the world that we associate with a particular culture that are the result of adaptation and fusion from other cultures. Recognizing the different aspects of the makeup is not to deny its final ethnic identification.

And it may even help us to keep the art form what is is, when considering changes. Too much Western takes away from the character of Oriental dance, but leave it out and you also change the character.