Teachers' attitudes

[Aniseteph]

Yeah - when I read it I did think it sounded a bit, er, one-sided. It was the bit about teachers stopping their students going to "rival" events that made me go , which is why I started the thread.
The article itself certainly isn't going to help foster a spirit of cooperation is it? Not so much pouring oil on troubled waters as pouring petrol in and adding a lighted match. Heigh ho....

 

[Aisha Azar]

Teachers, etc.

Dear Sharon and Aniseteph,
Although I admit I was surprised, since some if those things have happened to me in the past few years, I thought it was rather refresehing for a change to see people actually name names. I have on occasion named names myself and do not think it such a bad idea in an industry where there is so much underhanded stuff that goes on.
And, there is always room in most magazines for rebuttals. Also, if there were lies in the article, the victims also might sue for slander if it is proven that there are lies.
The dance community is often a very vicious place to be and sometimesnaming names does put an end to the nonsense, though i admit sometimes it does not. It is a two pronged fork!

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Suhad]

I can see both sides of the story...the one sided 'venting' aspect of what should be a journalistic piece, and the need for naming names in order for the guilty parties (if any) are held accountable for their actions.

I think that DeeDee is savvy enough in the business world that she is perfectly aware of the risk she takes in stating this publicly and naming names. Therefore I tend to believe there is enough proof in her possession to make her case if need be in court.

I also do think Lynette might have actually contacted those named to get their comments, if any, prior to publishing...even a 'no comment' can be quite revealing sometimes.

 

[elle21]

Ooh, now veering off onto a different angle, yes I noticed that too, and assumed that next week or whatever the offended parties would have a justification for their side of the story. But yes, it is presented incredibly one-sidedly.

That said, it seems common enough a situation given people's responses to this thread, that even if the article itself is one-sided to the point of being completely made up, the situation itself is clearly very real and worthy of a thread all by itself.

jumping back a few posts, Aisha again makes a very valuable distinction between healthy/non-healthy competition. I think the UK has, until recently at least, suffered from a lack of competition in general, and I welcome the sudden boom in events this year as hopefully this competition will raise the bar. that said, I also worry the sudden boom in events will lead to a lot of 'ugly' competition. There are a lot of egos in this dance!

 

[darcy]

TribalDancer, your post sums up my reaction exactly.

I know one of the people mentioned in that "article". I don't feel she's been accurately portrayed. From the sniping, gossipy tone, to the poor writing, this so-called piece of journalism doesn't impress me at all. In fact, the whole thing left me feeling like I needed to take a shower

 

[samira shuruk]

There were some letters to the editor regarding the questionable journalism tactics in this interview.
http://www.gildedserpent.com/let2ed.htm

Yes, these things happen and I agree that it should not be continually swept under the rug, but I'm not sure this article portrayed the whole story. In fact- it clearly didn't.
There ARE sponsors who purposefully schedule conflicts. There ARE teachers and schools who are territorial- not just discouraging their students from taking from anyone, but making up bold-faced lies about other teachers, pulling from events and venues (or threatening) when they don't get involved in something they want to be in. Withholding information on workshops sponsored by others, even controlling where the studio's teachers are "allowed" to perform. For some it's about power and the need to control, for others it's about ego or insecurity.
The good news is, people usually eventually see through the BS. Students eventually are exposed to other things and "see the light", venue owners realize they are being controlled and either push back or push away etc etc etc.
And I think the majority of teachers are the opposite. My teachers all encourage study with others, workshops with anyone etc... My two main teachers with over 30 years professional experience each still TAKE workshops (and travel to research etc).

 

[Gabi]

There were some letters to the editor regarding the questionable journalism tactics in this interview.
http://www.gildedserpent.com/let2ed.htm

Yes, these things happen and I agree that it should not be continually swept under the rug, but I'm not sure this article portrayed the whole story. In fact- it clearly didn't.
There ARE sponsors who purposefully schedule conflicts. There ARE teachers and schools who are territorial- not just discouraging their students from taking from anyone, but making up bold-faced lies about other teachers, pulling from events and venues (or threatening) when they don't get involved in something they want to be in. Withholding information on workshops sponsored by others, even controlling where the studio's teachers are "allowed" to perform. For some it's about power and the need to control, for others it's about ego or insecurity.
The good news is, people usually eventually see through the BS. Students eventually are exposed to other things and "see the light", venue owners realize they are being controlled and either push back or push away etc etc etc.
And I think the majority of teachers are the opposite. My teachers all encourage study with others, workshops with anyone etc... My two main teachers with over 30 years professional experience each still TAKE workshops (and travel to research etc).

Ha! Verrrry good point. Mine actually take workshops from their peirs and encourage their students to also, even refer to how someone else would do this or that in their classes. Nevertheless, it's kind of annoying for the students when many have class the same day and time if you want to take multiples.

I'd think piggybacking would ensure more attendance for everyone rather than doing the same time conflicting thing

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

What I've experienced in the cornfields:

1. Teacher A, the extremely insecure type, refuses to allow her students to take classes with any other teacher, and discourages her students from attending workshops and performances by other teachers.

2. No matter how carefully you schedule your event, checking with everybody you thought might have even CONSIDERED doing something that same weekend, inevitably you will find there will be someone nearby who sponsors a similar event the same weekend -- at which point there will usually be a name-calling contest and someone will accuse someone else of not doing enough research, someone else will get her feelings hurt, and the two groups will avoid each other's events for about 3 years.

3. Group A always has their events on the first weekend in October. Group B gets the opportunity to host Dina, and guess what ... the only time she can come is the first weekend in October.

As to the Snake itself:

Gilded Serpent has always sort of seemed like tabloid e-journalism to me, so this article doesn't surprise me. GS seems to thrive on the proverbial sh*t-storm, and for the most part the only time I read it is when someone points out something offensive. This article is par for the course for them.

And on Sibling Rivalry:

For what it's worth, if 1000 people showed up for a workshop (as Johara claimed she could attract), I don't think I'd want to go to that one. I want at least the ILLUSION of personal instruction. If the workshop videos produced by Little Egypt are any measure of how many people actually attend the events, it seems like a good size for the STUDENT -- maybe not for the vendor -- but as a student, I like some breathing room.

Of course, I'm in the cornfields and we don't really have the problem of oversaturating the market. Here, you have tribal groups who put on tribal events, cabaret groups who put on cabaret events, and the odd group who tries to fall somewhere in between. Each group knows its audience, and there seems to be very little cross-over between them.

Sisterhood is a laugh. Our global dance community HATES one another. There are still today dancers and teachers who are carrying grudges from the 1960's!!!! Anytime you start mucking about with someone's artistic perspective, or their perceived territory of expertise, or their livelihood, or their emotional obsession -- even if it's just a HINT that you might be surfing on their wave -- the claws come out.

When some of the biggest and most trusted names in the field resort to name calling and writing disparaging articles about their contemporaries, we can't really be surprised by small-fry and medium-fry rivalry. The best we can do is try to not get caught up in it.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Very well said Aziyade!
Yasmine

 

[Aisha Azar]

TEachers, etc.

Dear Aziyade,
While there are plenty of people who do not get along, I think there are also plenty of people who do. I think to say that the global community hates one another is rather overstating the point. Thre are personal preferences and dislikes among the people in any profession. We have people that we really respect. We have people that we respect their work, but we feel misrepresent what they are doing. There are also those that we would not walk across the street to spit on because we think they are so vile, either in their abuse of their students or in their general business practices. While I have never felt that "sisterhood" thing either, I do have people in the field for whom I have utmost respect for various reasons. And, I can't think of anyone that I actaully "hate".

Re the 1,000 student workshop: I hope that was an overstatement on Johara's part, too.... for the sake of the students. I am way into personal attention as the cornerstone of good instruction!


There will aways be competition as long as there are two people on the planet, but as long as it is healthy there is no problem. Unfortunately there is often a rather Machiavellian approach to the element of competition, and then it gets nasty, because the ethic is weird. In the end, for me it needs to be about the dance before anything. It needs to be about the dance on stage, and about the dance and the students in the class room....which is one reason I will enver get rich teaching. I ask my sponsors to please keep their registrations under 30 for any workshop so that I can gve the personal attention that students need. The only persdon that I have ever seen successfully manage more of a student load than that is Shareen El Safy! I WISH I could do a larger vlass than that, but I just can't manage to give enough students what they need when the numbers are bigger.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Oh I'm exaggerating, you know but I am truly disillusioned by some of the BIG NAMES who seem to enjoy talking trash about everyone they perceive is against them.

Okay so hate is too strong a word ... how about "seriously dislikes"



And 30 is a fab size for a workshop! But I wonder if sponsors can easily make back their investment when so "few" participants come. One instructor we looked at bringing in wanted a guaranteed 75 minimum.

Me, I'm thinking, at 75 people, we'll just be a crowd of torsos.

P.S.
So when is A'isha coming back to the cornfields? Hmm? hmm?????!!

 

[Aisha Azar]

TEachers etc.

Dear Aziyade,
I know that a lot of people feel that they can't make enough money if they only sign 30 people for a workshop, but in all honesty, it has become about money instead of about learning in many ways. Yes, the money is nice, but in good concience, I can't let sponsors overbook classes and have people leave feeling like they got very little. I charge the sponsor $25 per student, plus expenses. If they charge $45-$50 per person for the workshop, they can still make money and meet expenses. Plus, I only charge a small courtesy fee to perform in the show and there is money to be made for the sponsor there as well....
Mostly, when my dance company and/or I sponsor instructors, we look forward to seeing a great performance and studying with that person. If we make money above and beyond our expenses, we are really happy. Usually there is enougth for us all to collect a small wage and pay for our workshops, and add to the company coffers as well. that's not too bad for 6 people.

I would love to come back to the Midwest any time!! I had a great time when I was in Illinois and met some really wonderful women, as well as being able to renew my acquaintance with Sedonia, whom I adore.
(I have some coffee that I have been meaning to send Ms. Sedonia for about a month now...if she reads this, she should forgive my slowness in this matter and she WILL forgive me as soon as she drinks a cup!! )
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Rick Fink]

False accusations hurt ethical sponsors

I would like to speak in defense of Tambra, Isis and Johara who are mentioned in the article. Tambra is a good friend of mine and when Little Egypt scheduled over Tambras event she offered to postpone her event and even let Little Egypt use her venue- the Best Western motel in Carlton Tx- and was turned down because her venue was "too small". With Tambras blessing I sent out an email to hundreds of Texas and regional dancers calling on them to support both events so that neither sponsor would lose money and I personally know several troupes that attended both events.

Isis has a large studio and a very large number of her dancers attended Little Egypts events for years until Little Egypt started to schedule their events one week away from Isis's. In addition Little Egypt had numerous ads published in The Chronicles magazine until the one issue when Habibi went out of business and The Chronicles was flooded with sponors who bought up all the advertising space.

Three weeks ago I called Johara- who I have never met- and she told me that she had never had any contact with Little Egypt. Not an email, phone call or personal meeting and she was astounded that Little Egypt would claim that she had demanded half the profits of their event!

Sponsoring workshops and seminar shows takes a lot of work and money and good relations with other sponsors really helps. When I did my 'Master Sunday Series' I made sure I contacted all other local and regional sponsors and and checked the dates for their events. With 13 seminars over three years my events were never within a month of a local event or two weeks of a regional event.

Little Egypt started out by scheduling over Tambras event and continued this bad habit not only in Texas but in Florida as well! After so many times can this even be described as accidental? If Little Egypt is having money problems I suggest they look at their destructive business pratices and leave ethical people who have never harmed them alone.


Sincerely, Rick Fink

www.zhelene.com
www.orientalistart.net
www.medancecertification.org
***

 

[Yshka]

Wow, I was away from this thread and look what I've missed..

Dear Rick, I think you are right there. If that were to happen once it would seem like probably there'd been some mistake, or like Aziyade explained clearly, there COULD be a mix up of some sort, though this is taken the wrong way by the other parties involved most of the time. "accidentally" scheduling over someone else's gigs so many times is not coincidental anymore. Hell how can one even do that..
If word were to get out into the dance community about any teacher undermining others, that would IMO only harm THEIR reputation in the end. Causing problems for anyone else might cause them problems in the future.. Why risk that? (why undermine others anyway?) Beats me..

Dear Aziyade, I don't think the entire community hates one another, but I think you are pretty right on the fact that rivalry is a treacherous thing here. Dance community in itself is very sensitive to this kind of thing, for in all places there are teachers/dancers who will undermine others and screw up dance relations in the area. I think by all means we OWE it to our dance, our art and the (probably biggest) part of our community of dancers and students to try and not get caught up in these things. For the sake of future dance community and simply said "getting along".. What will become of this dance when people get in the middle of conflicts? They will get bigger, spread: not good.

In the long run the 'rotten apples' here will ruin it for themselves if we stand up and not let competition take over. I've already been hearing stories of students leaving 'those' teachers for being so territorial and competitive. Surely that doesn't make business any better for them.
Fortunately there are more people like us, and many dancers willing to share and at least TRY to get closer to this thing called dance community sisterhood. We may never get there, but there's no point in not-trying either.

About the signing up for workshops, I don't see how groups of more than 30/40 people could benefit anyone (I feel 30 is way too much too, but then again if the teacher can manage, why not). What is there to learn from a teacher if they have to pay attention to so many. We have a festival coming up in the area that will host a few workshops saying they've room for up to 500 people I don't see how this could ever be possible.
My experience with workshops so far (both hosted by my teacher and others) is that smaller groups work so much better. IMO the whole point of attending/arranging a workshop should be about learning something new, special skills, training skills you already have.. How is this achievable if there's not enough room or time to reflect on what you're doing with instructors carefully watching you? I think close attention and reflection from teachers is essential in learning this dance, if there's nobody to watch everyone at the same time. How can anyone get better from that?

Dear A'isha,
I haven't had the pleasure of studying with Shareen el Safy yet, but my guess is there aren't many teachers who can manage a big group of students at once. I prefer being in a small group as well. So many reasons to do so, and I've had the luck of only being in small groups so far (my teacher also being a firm believer in benefits of studying in small groups).
I'm planning to attend one of the really-huge-workshops though just to see how it goes (and to see how fast I can get close to the teacher to at least be able to see what they're doing )

Ok, long post ends now before it gets non-sense'ish..

 

[Rick Fink]

Dear Yshka,

You got it. If scheduling conflicts continue in such a regular manner you have to wonder if they are intentional.

I live in Austin Texas and when I organize events I rely on my allies to make my events successful. These allies are not so much regular dancers but troupe leaders and other sponsors and we all work to support and back each other up. It was through my friendship with Tambra that I was able to bring Mahmoud Reda to my troupe competition and his status and drawing power were a huge boost to my event. In return I give Tambra sole vending rights and support her in her workshops in Dallas.

These relationships are absolutely neccesary to making our scene work and most sponsors make it a habit to either help or at least not compete.

The problems occur when sponsors egos take a turn for the worse and they decide to take more than they give. Narcisism is our scenes greatest weakness and can be the most damaging. If a solo dancer gets a big head so what? But when a sponsor decides that no one else matters but them and decide to schedule their event either too close or over another sponsors event there are real problems.

My experience has been that while most sponsors prefer to work together that perhaps 25 percent can develope a bad case of "Malignant Narcisism" and decide that they are going to take over the scene! This hurts everybody and ultimately hurts themselves the most.

How can you tell if a sponsor has gone mental? Massive spending on multiple headliners for one event, pie in the sky ambitions and a scary self-regard are all indicators. Eventially reality bites and they either clean up their act or go out of business.

In spite of these problems I would like to point out that our dance has continued to grow worldwide and really is a wonderful artform.

Sincerely, Rick Fink

 

[Yshka]

In spite of these problems I would like to point out that our dance has continued to grow worldwide and really is a wonderful artform.

Dear Rick, You got that right. It's way too good to have it spoiled that way.