Do I need to learn to count?
- Thread starter jenc
- Start date
Aniseteph
New member
:think:
Depends how you mean counting - IMHO if you are up there on stage counting what your feet, arms, head etc are doing then you a) haven't practised and/or listened to your music enough, or b) are waaaay cleverer than me, 'cos I can't count that many things and walk in a straight line even.
Maybe this is just my learning style. I do rely on counting when I'm learning a new dance in class because it takes me a while to get my ear round the music sometimes, or pick up on the part we are dancing to (melody, rhythm, accents etc.). Once I can hear it in the music and know where it's going I don't bother any more, but it can take a long time if the music has an unfamiliar structure to it.
I did a live tabla workshop recently; everything was groups of 4 or 8 so if you couldn't hear when the change was due you had to count the bars, or you would mess up. And confuse the drummer. :naghty:
So I'd say if you get the structure/phrasing etc of the music and can translate that into movements being in the right place, then you don't need to be going 1-2-3-4 in your head.
Depends how you mean counting - IMHO if you are up there on stage counting what your feet, arms, head etc are doing then you a) haven't practised and/or listened to your music enough, or b) are waaaay cleverer than me, 'cos I can't count that many things and walk in a straight line even.
Maybe this is just my learning style. I do rely on counting when I'm learning a new dance in class because it takes me a while to get my ear round the music sometimes, or pick up on the part we are dancing to (melody, rhythm, accents etc.). Once I can hear it in the music and know where it's going I don't bother any more, but it can take a long time if the music has an unfamiliar structure to it.
I did a live tabla workshop recently; everything was groups of 4 or 8 so if you couldn't hear when the change was due you had to count the bars, or you would mess up. And confuse the drummer. :naghty:
So I'd say if you get the structure/phrasing etc of the music and can translate that into movements being in the right place, then you don't need to be going 1-2-3-4 in your head.
Totally agree--that kind of counting in your head is just a tool or crutch. If it helps you learn, great, use it. Otherwise, don't bother. The end result should NOT be counting in your head.
Similarly I sometimes hear my teacher's voice going along with the music "ball-ball-flat-flat....bi-i-i-i-g circle and a half" but that's just another tool as well.
Cathy
Similarly I sometimes hear my teacher's voice going along with the music "ball-ball-flat-flat....bi-i-i-i-g circle and a half" but that's just another tool as well.
Cathy
Kashmir
New member
No. Counting is a tool to learn someone else's choreography - and even then many Egyptian teachers cannot count their own choreography they "just do it" and fit it into the music. Listen to the music. Feel the beat - or the melody or the lyrics and stay true to that not a "count". Also, much ME music does not have a constant count - it'll swap and sway between time signatures and bridge bits.
jenc
New member
the above is advice to me on how to improve my dancing.
I personally think that counting is the way to just miss the beat, that for anything except a drum machine, the organic nature of music produces almost imperceptible variations of the beat that may only show up because you count.
I personally think that counting is the way to just miss the beat, that for anything except a drum machine, the organic nature of music produces almost imperceptible variations of the beat that may only show up because you count.
Exactly, I read that Mona Said is still refusing/being unable to count the dance. And during those many years I was studying in Egypt nobody counted.
I myself count only for beginners (western students demand counting), advanced students should learn to listen - the music will tell them what to do. I still hold the opinion that counting takes the "soul out" of the dance.
Caroline_afifi
New member
I think everyone should learn counting but not use it to dance with.
I was taught counting and understanding Arabic (and all other) music and this helped me so much.
It is the music we need to be able to understand and it is important to be able to recognise a 2/4 4/4 9/11 6/8 etc.
Studying music for me is as important as studing the steps or technique.
Working with musicians creating live performances (not gigs because they dont give a sh*T!) was a huge learning curve for me and I actively encourage people to attend music workshops even if you have no intention of ever holding an instrument.
I was taught counting and understanding Arabic (and all other) music and this helped me so much.
It is the music we need to be able to understand and it is important to be able to recognise a 2/4 4/4 9/11 6/8 etc.
Studying music for me is as important as studing the steps or technique.
Working with musicians creating live performances (not gigs because they dont give a sh*T!) was a huge learning curve for me and I actively encourage people to attend music workshops even if you have no intention of ever holding an instrument.
Last edited:
Mya
New member
I completely agree that if you have the opportunity to learn music and understand time signatures etc that it can only help you to understand and respond to the music better. But no counting steps!
Even for those of us who don't understand what 2/4 etc means - i still say NO counting. I refuse to count for my ladies. The first thing we do when we're going to start a choreography is listen to the song. I sit with them and point out cues etc that indicate changes. That way they start to feel for themselves where the movements change in the choreography and even what they change to.
These ladies are beginners only dancing for about a year this month and they've made me very proud in the last 6 months because now they can hear for themselves some cues and nuances in music and they respond to that instead of learning a sequence of movements.
To me, developing the ear is just as important as being able to count.
karena
New member
Just had a bit of a lightbulb moment here re counting (for me anyway)!
I'm a musician, so I cannot understand people not being able to count (not not counting, but not even being able to count if they tried). But I've just realised that when I count I am doing it in a subconscious way not a conscious way. The stuff people are saying about feeling the music, feeling the beat, hearing the cues etc., that is what I do, it's just I would call is counting from musical training. So, I don't go 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 in my head, but at any point I would be able to say what that beat is, as I can't help but feel that beat. A 1 sounds like a 1, as does a 2, 3 or 4.
So when hearing music I now naturally hear where the bars are, where the phrases are, the time signature, whether it is on or off the beat etc, when it changes time signature or key etc. Of course you can hear all that without knowing any of those terms but I am trained to apply those terms.
Don't know how this is even helpful to anyone, but I know it always makes me feel slightly unhappy when people dismiss counting completely, and I've now realised it's because people are seeing counting as artificial whereas I think it can just be a way of framing what others are doing too. So don't be hard on the counters!
(Re missing the beat if you count, if I specifically count music (let's say I am playing in an orchestra and have to count my 10 bars rest) I count what the rest of the orchestra are doing. I don't put my fingers in my ears and count like a metronome. So those imperceptible variations are perceived.)
(And re the changing time signatures in ME music, this happens in western music too. But you can still count. I've sat in orchestras and had to count my bars rest alternating between 3/4 and 4/4 before!)
I'm a musician, so I cannot understand people not being able to count (not not counting, but not even being able to count if they tried). But I've just realised that when I count I am doing it in a subconscious way not a conscious way. The stuff people are saying about feeling the music, feeling the beat, hearing the cues etc., that is what I do, it's just I would call is counting from musical training. So, I don't go 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 in my head, but at any point I would be able to say what that beat is, as I can't help but feel that beat. A 1 sounds like a 1, as does a 2, 3 or 4.
So when hearing music I now naturally hear where the bars are, where the phrases are, the time signature, whether it is on or off the beat etc, when it changes time signature or key etc. Of course you can hear all that without knowing any of those terms but I am trained to apply those terms.
Don't know how this is even helpful to anyone, but I know it always makes me feel slightly unhappy when people dismiss counting completely, and I've now realised it's because people are seeing counting as artificial whereas I think it can just be a way of framing what others are doing too. So don't be hard on the counters!
(Re missing the beat if you count, if I specifically count music (let's say I am playing in an orchestra and have to count my 10 bars rest) I count what the rest of the orchestra are doing. I don't put my fingers in my ears and count like a metronome. So those imperceptible variations are perceived.)
(And re the changing time signatures in ME music, this happens in western music too. But you can still count. I've sat in orchestras and had to count my bars rest alternating between 3/4 and 4/4 before!)
da Sage
New member
Yes! I often tap a foot on the "1" of a phrase, it is automatic, and I don't think it takes away from my experience or understanding of the music.
This. The timing of the music continues as part of the music, not external. But stuff still happens "in time", even if the time takes longer.
I'm not a great counter, so I usually can't count this sort of thing from the audience, but I can tell they're playing with the time signatures! And it's still on beat.
Kashmir
New member
A couple of weeks in, I play my new students a maqsoum. I get them to step on the doms. Then I turn the music off and they continue to step "in time" - they aren't counting they have the beat inside themselves. I can't imagine doing it with counts - we are going to step on 1,2,3 and 5. And I don't think they would pick it up as fast.
Salome
Administrator
It depends, some people can hear it, and don't need it broken down. For most people that takes time and exposure. But some people get it right off. If you are one of those people, then no, it's not necessary to count if you can already follow the speed of the music, anticipate accents, know when the melody will change etc.
The point is to get to a place where you don't need to count to know where you and the music are, so I say go for it, use it if it helps you get to that place.
I don't count when I dance. But I may use counting in other instances. For example, when I want to work with a new song, I sit down and count out verse and chorus, where and when an instrument, rhythm, vocal etc. I want to bring to the fore occurs... I also may use (the knowledge of it) when I need to talk to a musician about how his band does a particular arrangement or how I want my drum solo to be played and also I've used it as a teaching tool. So I still find it of use.
jenc
New member
The criticism came when I was trying out a new step against music. Thanks for clarification everyone. I was thinking of counting as using numbers, which for me would involve double translation, to put the step and the rythmn into a count of 8. Howvwer it makes more sense if it is taking time to feel the rythmn.
gisela
Super Moderator
I think it's a good skill to have and the optimal would be (maybe?) to be able to turn it on and off.
Once I quit a teacher because she was shouting out 1! 2! 3! 4! etc over the music and often said that "this combination just have to be learnt, you can't hear it in the music" when I clearly could hear it. (The choreos were not her own though). This was quite awful and after a while I started to hear her voice shouting numbers in my head. Then I quit.
That was waaaay to much counting for me but I think I would be lost if I couldn't count.
Like someone said, when doing choreography, your own or someone else's it helps, and with a troupe it can be very helpful. Like this sunday I was performing with my troupe and we got a few minutes practice on stage before the show. We could figure out how far to go, how big steps, and where to be, without music, because we could count it.
There has been some great answers in this thread and I have a bit of a new view on the counting thing thanks to f ex Karena and Kashmir
Once I quit a teacher because she was shouting out 1! 2! 3! 4! etc over the music and often said that "this combination just have to be learnt, you can't hear it in the music" when I clearly could hear it. (The choreos were not her own though). This was quite awful and after a while I started to hear her voice shouting numbers in my head. Then I quit.
That was waaaay to much counting for me but I think I would be lost if I couldn't count.
Like someone said, when doing choreography, your own or someone else's it helps, and with a troupe it can be very helpful. Like this sunday I was performing with my troupe and we got a few minutes practice on stage before the show. We could figure out how far to go, how big steps, and where to be, without music, because we could count it.
There has been some great answers in this thread and I have a bit of a new view on the counting thing thanks to f ex Karena and Kashmir
Nabila Nazem
New member
Karena, God bless you! So many folks dismiss counting --or indeed any formal music knowledge--as "artificial," and it drives me insane. It's great to have someone say it's actually an okay thing to do! I've had an extensive background in Western dance forms in an academic setting, and having had some basic music theory as part of my training has only helped me. For some reason, many people are threatened by music theory, thinking it won't make them "feel" the music or will undermine the musical sensibility they already have. I could not disagree more; the more I learn about rhythm and music, the better my "ear" gets and the more I trust my own inherent musicality. I feel music more deeply when I understand the nuts and bolts of it structurally, and this helps me to "let go."
It drives me straight up a tree when I hear teachers say that the music is such an important part of this dance and that listening to it is the most important thing, and that you have to feel it and yada yada yada then (for example) can't answer the most basic question of what they're listening for in a specific passage. They say that "they don't want to confuse students with music theory." In my experience, two things confuse students:
1) Bad information. As in just plain wrong. (i.e. counting a 10/8 in 4/4 and trying to make students learn it that way, etc.)
2) Good information, very badly presented.
I'm not saying all teachers need formal academic training; I've had some wonderfully musical teaching influences who haven't have a day of instruction. They have, however, had lengthy and quality exposure to good music from master teachers and musicians throughout their training and careers.
It drives me straight up a tree when I hear teachers say that the music is such an important part of this dance and that listening to it is the most important thing, and that you have to feel it and yada yada yada then (for example) can't answer the most basic question of what they're listening for in a specific passage. They say that "they don't want to confuse students with music theory." In my experience, two things confuse students:
1) Bad information. As in just plain wrong. (i.e. counting a 10/8 in 4/4 and trying to make students learn it that way, etc.)
2) Good information, very badly presented.
I'm not saying all teachers need formal academic training; I've had some wonderfully musical teaching influences who haven't have a day of instruction. They have, however, had lengthy and quality exposure to good music from master teachers and musicians throughout their training and careers.
SmilingMarie
New member
I agree with all the above - count the music but not the dance
When I make choreos (for class) I have to count - and I find myself shouting 1-2-3-4 when teaching them. But I think is has to be this way - esp at first. Later, I try not to count (and not to shout so much!) as I want my students to find their own way of remembering the timing and combinations.
But I am also a percussionist. And let me just say that when I started playing the darbouka it was like a new world opened to me when I listened (and danced) to the music - I thoroughly recommend a tabla/rhythm workshop to all dancers regardless of level!
I also use rhythm exercises (walking + clapping) in my dance classes from time to time - and it is surprising how many people struggle with clapping on the off-beat whilst keeping the beat with their feet (excellent coordination exercise and great fun!).
So it is not like you can't dance if you dont know the rhythms (their names, if they are 4/4 or 10/4 or whatever) but being able to find beat 1 consistently will take you a long way!
Happy dancing!
When I make choreos (for class) I have to count - and I find myself shouting 1-2-3-4 when teaching them. But I think is has to be this way - esp at first. Later, I try not to count (and not to shout so much!) as I want my students to find their own way of remembering the timing and combinations.
But I am also a percussionist. And let me just say that when I started playing the darbouka it was like a new world opened to me when I listened (and danced) to the music - I thoroughly recommend a tabla/rhythm workshop to all dancers regardless of level!
I also use rhythm exercises (walking + clapping) in my dance classes from time to time - and it is surprising how many people struggle with clapping on the off-beat whilst keeping the beat with their feet (excellent coordination exercise and great fun!).
So it is not like you can't dance if you dont know the rhythms (their names, if they are 4/4 or 10/4 or whatever) but being able to find beat 1 consistently will take you a long way!
Happy dancing!
SmilingMarie
New member
jenc,
what can I say - bu practice practice practice you'll get it eventually!
I know that you do have a few good percussionists over in the UK (I used to live there) and also dancers who could teaching basic rhythm training - it is great to invest time in attending a workshop or two for that AHA! moment later on
happy clapping!
what can I say - bu practice practice practice
you'll get it eventually!I know that you do have a few good percussionists over in the UK (I used to live there) and also dancers who could teaching basic rhythm training - it is great to invest time in attending a workshop or two for that AHA! moment later on
happy clapping!