Do I need to learn to count?

[jenc]

Oh yeah I do but money!!! It's a long way!!!!!!!

 

[karena]

Train from London to Leeds, 2hrs 20. Then out to Saltaire is about 15 mins.
:dance: Book in advance and the train is about £19 each way.:dance:

 

[jenc]

hotel?? I'm just over an hour from London, so including cross London travel, that's just under 4 hours if the connections are right!!

 

[karena]

hotel??

Yes we do have them up here

I'm just over an hour from London, so including cross London travel, that's just under 4 hours if the connections are right!!

I've been all the way to Bognor for a belly weekend. :dance: People come to JoY from all over, and outside of the UK.

 

[jenc]

I'll have to see what him indoors thinks - I just spent a weekend in London for lorna

 

[karena]

Ooo was it good? I like Lorna lots.
JoY is twice a year, and I am pretty sure there has been drumming at every JoY I've been to, so no hurry.

 

[jenc]

Lorna was absolutely fantastic.. I expected not to be able to keep up and loved it, but my teacher was not so happy not to have everything broken down, so she could learn some new steps

 

[Tezirah]

I was a bit frustrated myself in the first workshop - felt well out of my depth. But by the end of the day I'd picked up some very useful insights, if not any actual moves. It was nice to meet you Jenc, by the way.

 

[jenc]

Nice to meet you too. I have got lots of things that i want to work on that i think are more valuable than steps but it was seriously big league. The Sunday workshop was stuffed with teachers, but I think I got most out of that one I have some very useful exercies in terms of experimeting with music.

Or maybe it's because the first 2 were so far over my head that I can't remember anything!!

Because of this thread and the workshop, I have been trying to beat out rythms on table top whilst listening to music. having surprising amount of success with drum solos!!

 

[Eshta]

Hello ladies,

Glad to hear positive things about the workshops. Lorna was conscious that there were a wide range of levels and was also keen to teach what you couldn't get elsewhere, which is why it was less concentrated on 'moves' per se and more on developing your dance. However we'll be sending out feedback requests shortly so if you want to see more moves and less conceptual stuff, do let us know!

We've already had a few ideas for the next workshops, so do watch this space !

Sorry, thread hijack over! As you were...!

 

[SmilingMarie]

Because of this thread and the workshop, I have been trying to beat out rythms on table top whilst listening to music. having surprising amount of success with drum solos!!

GO YOU!! :dance:

 

[jenc]

actually, I have my best results with mouth percussin, as I don't have to beat difference between doum and tec but I still can't relate this to counting 1-8, which is what I was told to do!!

 

[SmilingMarie]

well jenc - i think you are on the right track! i've always been taught (and teach myself) that when you can say the rhythm you can play it (on the darbouka). so simply trying to get to grips with the rhythms by saying them out loud (the doum and the teks) and maybe tapping the beat with your foot (so you get the doums and teks in the right places) is all you need.

this of course is much much easier than it sounds
do you know the distribtion of the doums and teks on the beats in lke saidi, maksoum etc? else I'll be happy to help as much as I can!

 

[jenc]

I have a couple of dvds that go over them briefly - but I hav also read other threads on buying cds that help. I'm not too bad on the basic rythmn - but when it gets to embellishments i get lost - unless there are 2 drums when some times I can stay with it!!

 

[Reen.Blom]

Karena, God bless you! So many folks dismiss counting --or indeed any formal music knowledge--as "artificial," and it drives me insane. It's great to have someone say it's actually an okay thing to do! I've had an extensive background in Western dance forms in an academic setting, and having had some basic music theory as part of my training has only helped me. For some reason, many people are threatened by music theory, thinking it won't make them "feel" the music or will undermine the musical sensibility they already have. I could not disagree more; the more I learn about rhythm and music, the better my "ear" gets and the more I trust my own inherent musicality. I feel music more deeply when I understand the nuts and bolts of it structurally, and this helps me to "let go."

It drives me straight up a tree when I hear teachers say that the music is such an important part of this dance and that listening to it is the most important thing, and that you have to feel it and yada yada yada then (for example) can't answer the most basic question of what they're listening for in a specific passage. They say that "they don't want to confuse students with music theory." In my experience, two things confuse students:

1) Bad information. As in just plain wrong. (i.e. counting a 10/8 in 4/4 and trying to make students learn it that way, etc.)

2) Good information, very badly presented.

I'm not saying all teachers need formal academic training; I've had some wonderfully musical teaching influences who haven't have a day of instruction. They have, however, had lengthy and quality exposure to good music from master teachers and musicians throughout their training and careers.

Gosh so how EXACTLY you learn to count the music, anywhere where counting is involved I totally freeze... I can trace it back to when I was 5yo and music teacher asked me to sing or knock a music frase... I wa so socked I could not, and needless to say I was not accepted into music school... LOL

Since then, I REALLY struggle and all that 3/4 and 4/4 sounds like a nightmare to me....

 

[Farasha Hanem]

"We Got The Beat"---YEAH!

Karena, God bless you! So many folks dismiss counting --or indeed any formal music knowledge--as "artificial," and it drives me insane. It's great to have someone say it's actually an okay thing to do! I've had an extensive background in Western dance forms in an academic setting, and having had some basic music theory as part of my training has only helped me. For some reason, many people are threatened by music theory, thinking it won't make them "feel" the music or will undermine the musical sensibility they already have. I could not disagree more; the more I learn about rhythm and music, the better my "ear" gets and the more I trust my own inherent musicality. I feel music more deeply when I understand the nuts and bolts of it structurally, and this helps me to "let go."

It drives me straight up a tree when I hear teachers say that the music is such an important part of this dance and that listening to it is the most important thing, and that you have to feel it and yada yada yada then (for example) can't answer the most basic question of what they're listening for in a specific passage. They say that "they don't want to confuse students with music theory." In my experience, two things confuse students:

1) Bad information. As in just plain wrong. (i.e. counting a 10/8 in 4/4 and trying to make students learn it that way, etc.)

2) Good information, very badly presented.

I'm not saying all teachers need formal academic training; I've had some wonderfully musical teaching influences who haven't have a day of instruction. They have, however, had lengthy and quality exposure to good music from master teachers and musicians throughout their training and careers.

Nabila, you and karena just both earned rep.

I, too, am a musician, a violinist of 36 years, to be exact. I understand that music theory is hard for some, but I, too, do not like to see it dismissed as inconsequential. For me, counting is as natural as breathing air, and is an integral part of music. Yes, there are times where the music varies in tempo, and there are technical terms for that which aren't any harder than reading and understanding a recipe, and if the recipe is followed, you can create something wonderful. I have absolutely no problem "feeling the soul" of an emotional piece such as Mozart's "Symphonia Concertante in E flat major," while keeping the rhythm in my head, and for me, Arabic music is the same way. Also, although I'm not a fantastic zill player (yet! ), I understand how important it is to be able to count the rhythm in Arabic music, because it is quite different from Western rhythms. So please give us counters a little slack, lol. :dance:

Having said that, whatever works for a person, as long as it works, go for it!

 

[jenc]

I can recognise a waltz or a polka (they're both 3/4 time????). But I have no idea what that means in any meaningful way. Therefore, I can't recognise any unusual ME rythmns/time signatures. Ok so it's beats to the bar, but what does that mean in practical terms?

 

[SmilingMarie]

The way I understand 2/4, 4/4, 8/4 etc is the number of beats before the rhythm is repeated
Fallahi is 2/4 DUM DUM TEK where the two DUMs fall on the beat (the one and the two) - and then you start over again, counting from one.
Maksoum is 4/4 DUM TEK TEK DUM TEK where the DUMs fall on beats one and three - so for this rhythm you basically count to four and then start over again.

The rhythm Semai is played over 10 beats so you basically have to count all the way to ten before starting the rhythm again.

I dont know if this helps anyone

 

[Reen.Blom]

The way I understand 2/4, 4/4, 8/4 etc is the number of beats before the rhythm is repeated
Fallahi is 2/4 DUM DUM TEK where the two DUMs fall on the beat (the one and the two) - and then you start over again, counting from one.
Maksoum is 4/4 DUM TEK TEK DUM TEK where the DUMs fall on beats one and three - so for this rhythm you basically count to four and then start over again.

The rhythm Semai is played over 10 beats so you basically have to count all the way to ten before starting the rhythm again.

I dont know if this helps anyone

Gosh, it is so complicated... LOL

 

[Nabila Nazem]

Yes indeed ... how would one learn to count the music? If that is really an issue, and you're making no progress with any of the sources you have, I'd suggest a really extreme measure: hire an expert. Get in touch with and hire a musician/music teacher who's main expertise is teaching the basic elements of music to people like yourself, and in your case, focusing on rhythm. This person doesn't have to be an expert in Middle Eastern music, we're talking about learning about the very basic concept of rhythm BEFORE it gets to be Flamenco, Arabic, rock n roll, African, etc. Ideally you'd learn using examples of songs from your native culture and therefore are already "part of you" and then gradually apply what you're learning to more varied sources, and in increasing complexity. A lot of music is very acoustically dense, and if you don't know what to listen for, it can be very intimidating and confusing; having someone to sort out the noise clutter and point out what to focus on can be an enormous help.

This isn't something, I believe, that can be learned from a book; I think this is one situation where in-person, live interaction is vital. It also takes time; one hour or one lesson won't make you "get it." It takes time to sink in, and trying to force it will hurt more than help. Be patient and give it a chance.

You already know more than you think simply because you have listened to lots and lots of music from the time you were born. Don't give up!