Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24
  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Sorry to go with the off-topic flow of this thread, but just felt I needed to contribute something that hasn't been mentioned yet.

    My teacher is one of the most open-minded, liberal, and equality-minded people I know who has a fantastic husband, the best son a mum could ask for and many male friends... but she will not teach men in either of her two classes. It is my understanding that she knows some ladies in both classes would feel uncomfortable or not come at all if a man were present. She's never mentioned anything about whether being gay or heterosexual would make a difference, just men in general. I suppose one might hypothesise that some women may not feel 'threatened' by a gay man.

    I'm not saying this is right, but I can imagine the thought of losing students makes the decision more difficult, and its not like my teacher can afford to start up a third class just to teach a man or men (and those women who don't mind men in their class). I wish it could be different too, that women just wouldn't mind so much, but we're in like the least-populated county in England and it is hard enough for some ladies to feel comfortable exposing their bellies, even less so in front of men.

  2. #12
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    4,438
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oona View Post
    Sorry to go with the off-topic flow of this thread, but just felt I needed to contribute something that hasn't been mentioned yet.

    My teacher is one of the most open-minded, liberal, and equality-minded people I know who has a fantastic husband, the best son a mum could ask for and many male friends... but she will not teach men in either of her two classes. It is my understanding that she knows some ladies in both classes would feel uncomfortable or not come at all if a man were present. She's never mentioned anything about whether being gay or heterosexual would make a difference, just men in general. I suppose one might hypothesise that some women may not feel 'threatened' by a gay man.

    I'm not saying this is right, but I can imagine the thought of losing students makes the decision more difficult, and its not like my teacher can afford to start up a third class just to teach a man or men (and those women who don't mind men in their class). I wish it could be different too, that women just wouldn't mind so much, but we're in like the least-populated county in England and it is hard enough for some ladies to feel comfortable exposing their bellies, even less so in front of men.
    I do sympathise with those ladies who go out to learn in a totally feminine environment. I actually prefer that kind of situation myself. she does of course have her students comfort at the root of her decision.I would have an understanding of no men at all more so than allowing gay men. She is just so fortunate that she can still do that. For most of us are bound by law to give equal opportunity .Why isn't she?

  3. #13
    V.I.P. Sita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,403
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    Er...how are teachers still able to discriminate.
    Isn't saying I won't teach a heterosexual man as bad a saying I won't teach a gay woman
    I honestly don't understand why action has not been taken against this discrimination. It's scary.
    As for issues of women in the class feeling comfortable i have never heard of such issues in any other dance class I've been too - Flamenco, Contemporary, salsa, Zimbabwean etc so why is belly dance any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by zorba
    Shoot - I'd just tell 'er I was gay. As long as my wife didn't walk into the class, who would know?
    While your comment made me smile -hug to you - I honestly don't know what upsets me more. The inequality and discrimnation in reference to male students, or the fact that someone feels they have the right to even bring up a persons sexual idenity in regards to a dance class or anything else

    Sita

  4. #14
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South West England
    Posts
    1,915
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oona View Post
    Sorry to go with the off-topic flow of this thread, but just felt I needed to contribute something that hasn't been mentioned yet.

    My teacher is one of the most open-minded, liberal, and equality-minded people I know who has a fantastic husband, the best son a mum could ask for and many male friends... but she will not teach men in either of her two classes. It is my understanding that she knows some ladies in both classes would feel uncomfortable or not come at all if a man were present. She's never mentioned anything about whether being gay or heterosexual would make a difference, just men in general. I suppose one might hypothesise that some women may not feel 'threatened' by a gay man.

    I'm not saying this is right, but I can imagine the thought of losing students makes the decision more difficult, and its not like my teacher can afford to start up a third class just to teach a man or men (and those women who don't mind men in their class). I wish it could be different too, that women just wouldn't mind so much, but we're in like the least-populated county in England and it is hard enough for some ladies to feel comfortable exposing their bellies, even less so in front of men.
    Hmmm, I wonder, so many it seems using the excuse that they think or know other class members would feel uncomfortable, quite a good way of deflecting flak away from the teacher for refusing equal opportunities. I wonder though, this 'think' or ' know', is it based on fact or feeling.

    I would hope that if a male approached a class with a view to learning, the tutor has the say what goes, it is the tutor's class, but I do understand a tutor has to consider their existing students, so instead of this think or know based on feeling, I hope the question is asked of the class, giving the correct provisos and requirements, as outlined on various websites dealing with taking a male into a class with females.

    The class I joined last year, there were no problems, I provided them with suitable entertainment, they got a good laugh out of my prescence, and they were very friendly and helpful, no sign of any hostility. As far as I know, the class was not asked could I attend, it was the decision of the tutor.

    Now a new class starting, and there is two males so far including me.

  5. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lizaj View Post
    I do sympathise with those ladies who go out to learn in a totally feminine environment. I actually prefer that kind of situation myself. she does of course have her students comfort at the root of her decision.I would have an understanding of no men at all more so than allowing gay men. She is just so fortunate that she can still do that. For most of us are bound by law to give equal opportunity .Why isn't she?
    Just to clarify, it is 'no' men at all in our class.

    All I can say, having only been student for about a year and a half, is that only once have I heard anything about a man even requesting to join the class. It was a little boy at one of the festivals where we danced at last year and I remember the reason was something to the effect that my teacher didn't have the ability/facility for teaching men. I suppose the issue would be more pertinent in our group is there were an actual vocal interest from men, but we just haven't had it.

    I know that a number of people on here know my teacher personally and would vouch that she is probably one of the awesomest people on earth. She's also a close friend. Sh*t, now I'm gonna have to bring this up, because I want to know her reasoning directly. I wish I hadn't said anything now because it seems the issue is considered to be very black and white.

  6. #16
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Merritt Island, Fl.
    Posts
    2,575
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Needless to say, I don't like "no men" policies - not at all. I do however, understand what drives some to adopt them.

    This said, it often really depends upon the man. I was recently (2 weeks ago) invited to join a Belly Dance troupe that I was told several times (about a year ago last time) that there'd NEVER be a male member. The (folkloric/semi-Tribal) troupe is all about female empowerment, etc. etc. The only males allowed anywhere near it were "sherpas", not dancers.

    So what am I doing there now? Because I approached the troupe with respect for their empowerment, and in no way contradict, trample, or otherwise restrict their feelings/mission. They figured out that I was an "Honorary Woman" and invited me unanimously - but not without a bunch of discussion among themselves, and then with me.

    Needless to say, I am DEEPLY honored, and touched. Very much so. For a male to find acceptance in a group like this is very much an honor. The troupe leader says "Zorba's not a 'chest beater'".

  7. #17
    Moderator Zorba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Merritt Island, Fl.
    Posts
    2,575
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oona View Post
    ... I remember the reason was something to the effect that my teacher didn't have the ability/facility for teaching men.
    She may very well honestly feel this way!

    The answer is, "Teach him JUST LIKE any other student!".

    The rest is minor details - send her to my website if she's interested...

  8. #18
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    4,438
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oona View Post
    Just to clarify, it is 'no' men at all in our class.

    I repeat how do you circumnavigate the law?

    All I can say, having only been student for about a year and a half, is that only once have I heard anything about a man even requesting to join the class. It was a little boy at one of the festivals where we danced at last year and I remember the reason was something to the effect that my teacher didn't have the ability/facility for teaching men.


    ah now I can discrimnate on age grounds as I am not insured to teach under 14 year olds

    I suppose the issue would be more pertinent in our group is there were an actual vocal interest from men, but we just haven't had it.

    I know that a number of people on here know my teacher personally and would vouch that she is probably one of the awesomest people on earth. She's also a close friend. Sh*t, now I'm gonna have to bring this up, because I want to know her reasoning directly. I wish I hadn't said anything now because it seems the issue is considered to be very black and white.
    Actully Oona, my love you brought this up and it's of interest to all us teachers and students. There'll be many teachers and students who worry that their all female environment may be invaded by an interested male.
    So far I have only had one man phone me and he did not turn up. The problem I have to say is out of my hands as my employers "sign up" my students and they will be bound to adher to the law. Personally I would be less rather than more worried by a dedicated male in class than a distruptive empty headed woman but I can't speak for my students so I do sympathise with a teacher who is concerned for the comfort of her existing students .
    But I am intrigued as to how teachers manage to "advertise" and be open about discriminating against male students in this day and age.
    Last edited by lizaj; 04-14-2009 at 10:00 PM.

  9. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    100
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    Needless to say, I don't like "no men" policies - not at all. I do however, understand what drives some to adopt them.

    This said, it often really depends upon the man. I was recently (2 weeks ago) invited to join a Belly Dance troupe that I was told several times (about a year ago last time) that there'd NEVER be a male member. The (folkloric/semi-Tribal) troupe is all about female empowerment, etc. etc. The only males allowed anywhere near it were "sherpas", not dancers.

    So what am I doing there now? Because I approached the troupe with respect for their empowerment, and in no way contradict, trample, or otherwise restrict their feelings/mission. They figured out that I was an "Honorary Woman" and invited me unanimously - but not without a bunch of discussion among themselves, and then with me.

    Needless to say, I am DEEPLY honored, and touched. Very much so. For a male to find acceptance in a group like this is very much an honor. The troupe leader says "Zorba's not a 'chest beater'".
    Yes, I think this is definitely something I need to bring up in class at some point so I can know more clearly where everyone, including the teacher, stands.

    But WOW!, how cool is that, Zorba -- how you became part of the group. I totally understand where you're coming from and I personally don't like men being excluded either. In fact, it's an issue I never had to deal with too much back in the US. When I moved the the UK, (I've lived in mostly less populated areas here), I've noticed more enlightened societal norms haven't quite caught up in the very rural areas. Hell, I still hear constant references from men at my work to the word 'girl' when it should be 'woman' or the fact that I'm expected to answer the phone if the office administrator isn't here because I have the 'nicest voice'. Ugh. If there were another, better job I would take it, but it's not the best climate for the unemployed at the mo.

    But I digress. I take your points, all of you, but as I tend to flee from conflict, I just haven't questioned these things when I really need to. So thanks for bringing it to my attention.

  10. #20
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Jersey City, New Jersey
    Posts
    2,366
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Lily View Post
    Hi all.
    It’s time again for me to ask a question I think I’ve actually asked in the past. But I raise the topic again because, once again the issue has risen.

    My bf wants me to teach him to b’dance. But I’m a trained dancer. NOT a trained dance teacher. And it’s been 8 years since I’ve been a beginner, plus the difference in gender and muscular structure.
    So I am concerned that if I teach incorrectly, that I may injure him unintentionally.

    My teacher wont teach men, …unless they’re gay.

    So help me out please.
    Remind me how to safely break down movements appropriate for males and for someone with no b’dance training.

    Thanks.

    Fire Lilly.
    Sorry to say, but your teacher's attitude is a distortion of the actual culture. Although most men do not perform professionally, they do dance, and it has NOTHING to do with anyones sexual orientation. Truth be told, most dancing in Egypt and the Middle East is NOT done by professional dancers, but by ordinary people for fun. So if she would be true to the culture and the dance A: she would teach men, not just "gay men", because all men in Egypt dance the same way, B: Instead of focusing on performance dance, she would emphasize the fact that this is a social dance and create a venue for students to enjoy it in this context as well.

    There isn't anything that you would teach him that could injure him. The movement vocabulary is unisex and is based on the mechanics of the normal human body, not a female body. Men and women share the same basic skeletal and muscular structure after all.

    Culturally, both men and women dance socially for fun at social occasions. It is only in the role of the professional dancer that it became something done exclusively by women, but this had more to do with economics and business more than it did with culture. However, eve this is beginning to change even in Egypt itself. Therefore, although we are use to seeing women dance in public professionally, Egyptian dance at its heart is NOT female exclusive. Any social function where the guys are still attached to their culture, you will see that they use the exact same basic movements, so yes, there is a place for men in this dance, regardless of what many people would like to believe.

    Below is a list of videos that will put this in perspective for you. The first is an interview about men in Egyptian dance, followed by several video clips of Egyptian men dancing. I've saved the professional stuff for last, but it shows that those of us men who do perform, are actually working on a foundation that does exist within the culture. We've just adapted it for stage.

    YouTube - Dance and the Egyptian people Dance and the Egyptian people.

    YouTube - Dina : Dina and Sa’ad il Sughir

    YouTube - el3nab : Sa’ad Sughayar’s and guys dancing in video Il Aynab

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlC8F8P9SPM: Bedouin man dancing

    YouTube - sexy dance by Egyptian - Belly dance Patra 2007 "Zaira" : Middle aged guy.

    YouTube - Egyptian Guys in Cairo Dancing baladi on the Nile : Guy in Egypt dancing on party boat

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0FD7Dcwu_Q: Egypt Cane dance

    YouTube - Egyptian Dancer in Luxor Egypt by Mahsoub : Mahsoub, Saidi dancer in Luxor

    YouTube - Tito Egyptian male Raks Sharki (Oriental Dance/belly Dance) : Tito, Egypt’s best known male Oriental Dancer

    YouTube - Male Oriental/belly Dancer Tarik Sultan in Egypt Part 1 : Tarik in Cairo opening number

    YouTube - Egyptian male Sharki/Oriental dance by Tarik Sultan #3 : Tarik Adaweya Choreography

    YouTube - Egyptian Dance (Male Raks Sharki ) byTarik Sultan #4 : TArik’s Yaho choreography

    YouTube - Egyptian Dance Raks Shisha: by Tarik Sultan (belly dancer)#5 : Tarik’s water pipe dance

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •