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  1. #51
    Premium Member Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamthief666 View Post
    ... i do think there is a need to preserve traditional things but celebrate new as well , we should always let the gp know whats what so they understand there is a differance.
    But what if the dancers don't know the difference? If you go to shows and haflas where anything goes, and aren't the type to spend waay too much time arguing the toss here...

  2. #52
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    And that is exactly the point really.

    Like Jenc mentioned, her teacher taught both but never stated which was which, and Marya was taught for a few years before she realised.

    It is this sort of thing I want to see end.

  3. #53
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
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    I doubt that will happen though until bellydance gets a "Martha Graham" who sets recognized established standards, including standardizing the movements and styles. Even then you will still get basement teachers with little knowledge teaching to make some extra cash on the side. I learned from a gymnastics teacher like that when I was a kid and it's been established for a loooong time. In a way ATS is way ahead in that regard unless there is some type of certification for Cabaret etc. I haven't heard about.

  4. #54
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I doubt that will happen though until bellydance gets a "Martha Graham" who sets recognized established standards, including standardizing the movements and styles. Even then you will still get basement teachers with little knowledge teaching to make some extra cash on the side. I learned from a gymnastics teacher like that when I was a kid and it's been established for a loooong time. In a way ATS is way ahead in that regard unless there is some type of certification for Cabaret etc. I haven't heard about.
    ATS does have clear boundaries, you are right.

    A few years ago, I gave a presentaion about Egyptian dance in the next room to carolina Nerricio who was doing the same about ATS.

    From what I heard she was very protective about the style in which she developed and was quite annoyed at the various reditions going around calling itself ATS.

    I think these days it is possible to say when something is ATS, fusion, Egyptian and Americal style etc. it just takes a bit of research on the teachers behalf and the ability to recognise what they are teaching.
    Many teachers are doing this already and from what i know of many on this firum, they are doing the same.

  5. #55
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi View Post
    ATS does have clear boundaries, you are right.
    It's not just the boundaries it's the language as well. From what I understand if you have studied ATS you can discuss it, dance it, write about it, and anyone else who has studied it will know exactly what you are talking about. I go to forums about movements and dance for every other style and I run into "what do you call this", "how do you do that move", "what variation do you use", and " what you call a ____ we call a ____" but the same name will also be used for multiple moves by different people.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think the information is out there it's just so scrambled currently. If it wasn't I wouldn't be popping in professionally made instruction videos and being introduced to "the importance of the dance in goddess worship." It makes it a real pain to choreograph (yeah, I'm not good enough to improve yet). I go to write down the moves and it's like what the heck do I write? Sure it's a hip drop but how do I differentiate it from all the other hip drops out there.

    Every other dance style I know of has clear definitions and delineations. Until the same can be said of each style of bellydance I doubt it will get taken seriously the way you want. Sure we can recognize it when we see it but how do you teach it? I am not saying we need licensing or anything like that but some type of standardization and certification saying you have learned those standards could go a long way to raising bellydance teachers to a "professional" level.

    Sooooo.... who's going to start the first school (as opposed to a class)?

  6. #56
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
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    Not me. I'm a child of the 1960s and 1970s who resists regimentation and standardization in the arts.

    Carolena Nericcio can offer standards for ATS- she invented it and what Carolena says about ATS is hard to argue with. But who has the final word in Egyptian style? AmCab? Turkish?

    Any organization's attempt to establish "official" belly dance standards and certification is unlikely to accomplish anything except add to the number of hits one gets when typing in "belly dance certification" into a search engine.

  7. #57
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post
    Not me. I'm a child of the 1960s and 1970s who resists regimentation and standardization in the arts.

    Carolena Nericcio can offer standards for ATS- she invented it and what Carolena says about ATS is hard to argue with. But who has the final word in Egyptian style? AmCab? Turkish?

    Any organization's attempt to establish "official" belly dance standards and certification is unlikely to accomplish anything except add to the number of hits one gets when typing in "belly dance certification" into a search engine.
    I have to say that's about it!

  8. #58
    Member dreamthief666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    It's not just the boundaries it's the language as well. From what I understand if you have studied ATS you can discuss it, dance it, write about it, and anyone else who has studied it will know exactly what you are talking about. I go to forums about movements and dance for every other style and I run into "what do you call this", "how do you do that move", "what variation do you use", and " what you call a ____ we call a ____" but the same name will also be used for multiple moves by different people.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think the information is out there it's just so scrambled currently. If it wasn't I wouldn't be popping in professionally made instruction videos and being introduced to "the importance of the dance in goddess worship." It makes it a real pain to choreograph (yeah, I'm not good enough to improve yet). I go to write down the moves and it's like what the heck do I write? Sure it's a hip drop but how do I differentiate it from all the other hip drops out there.

    Every other dance style I know of has clear definitions and delineations. Until the same can be said of each style of bellydance I doubt it will get taken seriously the way you want. Sure we can recognize it when we see it but how do you teach it? I am not saying we need licensing or anything like that but some type of standardization and certification saying you have learned those standards could go a long way to raising bellydance teachers to a "professional" level.

    Sooooo.... who's going to start the first school (as opposed to a class)?
    I know it would be an hugh task, but maybe it would be a good idea to standadise the major moves in all the traditional forms. as i have had various teachers and a regular comment is "i call this, this but it may be called someting else by others," and to define the difference between turkish and egyptian. calling all the experts

  9. #59
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreamthief666 View Post
    I know it would be an hugh task, but maybe it would be a good idea to standadise the major moves in all the traditional forms. as i have had various teachers and a regular comment is "i call this, this but it may be called someting else by others," and to define the difference between turkish and egyptian. calling all the experts
    Well I think that would really have to be battled out in the country of origin.

    I am not sure that we have already passed the point of that being possible.

    Even the scene in Egypt is constantly changeing so I doubt even there they could agree on who decides what to call what.

  10. #60
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi View Post
    Well I think that would really have to be battled out in the country of origin.
    I disagree. While innovation in the dance needs to come from the country of origin the kind of schooling this would require really needs to come from each individual country. There is nothing keeping schools in each country from communicating with each other to keep it authentic (as this board shows) but just as modern dance had it's leaders in each country that same immediacy is needed to the students in this case. Martha Graham didn't invent modern dance but she sure elevated it just as Mary Wigman did in Europe.

    Even if there is differences in the various schools as to what is what as long as everyone in a given 'school' is learning the same things it would create a stability that is missing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel
    Not me. I'm a child of the 1960s and 1970s who resists regimentation and standardization in the arts.
    Careful, you are sounding like the Tribal Fusion dancers who don't see why they can't do anything they want and "call it bellydance".

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