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  1. #81
    Junior Member Hecate's Avatar
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    Nightdancer, thanks! I dunno why I'm typing this, but if you're interested as in why I chose it, you can check out my intro thread to this forum in meet and greet

    Regardless, I think I understand where you are going with this. Sort of. I think we as dancers in a whole have our own ideas about how things are to be done. And well while you go to one teacher and they may tell you one thing and the next teacher may tell you another, I think we all need to remember that this is exactly the reason we should rotate teachers from time to time. Everyone has something fresh or new to teach us, and if not, I'm sure they have something to teach - maybe a new view or such.

    Or maybe I'm just rambling. I've been known to do so lol. Haha and I wish I just pondered when I'm grouchy instead of all the time *sigh*

  2. #82
    Senior Member maria_harlequin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
    I was a bit hurt to read some of the things said about Tribal Style and Tribal Fusion. Yes, I understand that it does differ a bit and sometimes Greatly from Middle Eastern dance, but even as a student now we are learning our roots from middle eastern influences. As my teacher explained it, "the basics are the basics." I interpreted that as when you get down to it, belly dance (whether tribal or not) all starts out as belly dance. Though I also do understand that there are just people who take the fusion part way too far. When fusion is used in our class context, often it's just bits and parts of other dance styles. One such example is when tribal dancers do floreos, a flemenco dance move. It's kinda like the egyptian hands. Small things like that add a bit of variety from the every day norm of the ME style. Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful style and I won't detest that all styles of bellydance (fusion or other) have been birthed from it, but I don't think I could have portrayed it like the lovely ladies who have dedicated themselves to it. Other than that, I don't mean any offense but I don't think it's quiet the style for me either.

    Another thing that didn't sit too well with me was the generalization that tribal fusion dancers are rachael brice wannabees, and if you didn't mean it like that then I'm sorry I interpreted it as such. Really why I value tribal fusion and ATS so much is that it values different dance styles and interpretations though all keeping it bellydance. I agree with you Shira when you say that it can't be bellydance when the dancers are mostly doing hip-hop or such.

    Anywho's the last thing I agree with is that if all styles should be clarified. Like Tribal Fusion, ATS, Tribal burlesque, and so on. Honestly when it comes to a hafla I wouldn't allow tribal burlesque. Though tribal fusion and ATS in my opinion are clean dance forms that show the beauty of expression as well as it's caberet cousin.

    I know I'm just a student but I figured I would just present my view from a tribal perspective, even if it's a novice one
    Hi dear!

    I'm sorry you were hurt but you should know that most of us here don't have a problem with ATS or Tribal Fusion - our problem is that it's being labeled as Belly Dance when it's clearly not. I'm an ATS and Tribal Fusion dancer myself as well as traditional AmCab and Egyptian but I don't label ATS and Tribal Fusion as belly dance styles.

  3. #83
    Member CottonAnatomy's Avatar
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    That is something that I was surprised to see when I first entered the dance community. All the subgenres of the dance not being considered as subgenres of the dance. heh I think like with anything in it's pure form, it will branch of and become something else. I, personally, think all subgenres of bellydance are still bellydance, but of course just not in it's purest form. Musical genres have plenty of subgenres but you can still easily generalize them and just say rap, rock, country and so on. I think it's the same with dance. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I like to take the more laid back approach to things.

    I do, though, find it important to know the difference between them. Living in the metro Detroit area, which is home to the highest population of middle eastern people in the United States, if I ever wanted to make a living out of performing I would definitly have to know how to do a pure egyptian dance vs some sort of fusion or just tribal.

  4. #84
    V.I.P. jenc's Avatar
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    Saw some so called fusion dancing at the weekend - to my mind itb was modern dance NOT bellydance.

    Never thought I would get nostalgic for the Rachel Brice clones!!

  5. #85
    Senior Member maria_harlequin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CottonAnatomy View Post
    That is something that I was surprised to see when I first entered the dance community. All the subgenres of the dance not being considered as subgenres of the dance. heh I think like with anything in it's pure form, it will branch of and become something else. I, personally, think all subgenres of bellydance are still bellydance, but of course just not in it's purest form. Musical genres have plenty of subgenres but you can still easily generalize them and just say rap, rock, country and so on. I think it's the same with dance. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I like to take the more laid back approach to things.

    I do, though, find it important to know the difference between them. Living in the metro Detroit area, which is home to the highest population of middle eastern people in the United States, if I ever wanted to make a living out of performing I would definitly have to know how to do a pure egyptian dance vs some sort of fusion or just tribal.
    It seems like belly dance is the only dance subjective to the whole "branching" out to myriad of different styles that don't even resemble belly dance anymore. If someone decided to throw in a few flamenco hand florels, no one would call that Hip Hop Flamenco Style. And you don't see a salsa dancer doing chest circles, shimmies, and hip bumps and suddenly calling it Cuban Belly Dance Style. But someone throws in a few hip drops and a shimmy into a routine while waving around a feather fan in a pair of sequined booty shorts and suddenly "Burlesque Style Belly Dance" becomes a legitimate style. Or a dancer is shimmying and isolating to a Beats Antique song and that becomes another style of belly dance.

    ATS is also an example. You have dancers waving around a sword, doing high kicks, waving around a sword AND playing a zill and they call it Tribal Fusion. Where's the Tribal in that? A few Egyptians thrown in? Hailing the Cab and a a taxim? Where's the (American) Tribal (Style) in the Tribal Fusion style?

    And let me say that I don't have a problem with someone waving a sword around and playing a zill at the same time as long as they don't label it as belly dance. I myself am a Fusionist.

    I don't believe in taking a more casual approach to the dance because this is someone else's culture. Belly dance is a dance that is so deeply ingrained with Egyptian culture and its music That by taking a more laid back approach usually reduces it to a dance composed of only its movements which isn't what the dance is about. This is why it's important to stick to the traditional roots of the dance - not only when you're performing for the natives but for the general public as well. I know a guy that's already so misinformed that he thinks that the "Tribal dancers" are the real, ethnic belly dancers while the "cabaret style" dancers are the slutty ones. How sad is that?

  6. #86
    Junior Member Hecate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CottonAnatomy View Post
    That is something that I was surprised to see when I first entered the dance community. All the subgenres of the dance not being considered as subgenres of the dance. heh I think like with anything in it's pure form, it will branch of and become something else. I, personally, think all subgenres of bellydance are still bellydance, but of course just not in it's purest form. Musical genres have plenty of subgenres but you can still easily generalize them and just say rap, rock, country and so on. I think it's the same with dance. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I like to take the more laid back approach to things.
    Thank you Cotton~ That's exactly how I feel!

    Maria, I have no problem with your view or anything, it's just that I disagree with some points. And I also think that seeing I stand pretty firm on one side and you on the other that not one of us will budge on the subject, so all in all I say agree to disagree. I just happen to be one of those people who think Tribal IS bellydance.

    For the sake of this discussion I'll continue the debate seeing as I feel my views are important too and well I just want to make sure they are clear, just in case anyone wants to further agree or not.

    When it comes down to it, I do believe that Tribal and it's forms are belly dance. I do not think, however, that once most of the dance is lost to the fusion part that it should still be labeled belly dance. And Maria, this just might be my nooby mind talking, but I've seen a good handful of tribal dancers that keep a great amount of Caberet style moves, if not all or most of them, and then just add in the other styles to their repertoire. Personally I enjoy watching them more because I love seeing the integration of culture/styles. And yes I also do agree that there are just Tribal dancers out there that mostly do hip hop dance and then add a few taxims or whatever and label it belly dance when it's not, so we're not too far off from one another

    And yes, I do find it a bit sad that Any form of belly dance is classified slutty these days. Well except that burlesque stuff. No offense to anyone that does that! I just don't think that that's quite a family friendly type. Plus I don't think it should be a type of belly dance! I think if you want to dance burlesque that perhaps it should be kept at home. I don't know, but I think that when people see that it gives not only tribal a bad name, but caberet and belly dance in general. I think people just start getting the wrong idea. And even if you tried to take time to explain, it's not like they'd pay attention long enough to listen.

  7. #87
    Senior Member maria_harlequin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
    When it comes down to it, I do believe that Tribal and it's forms are belly dance. I do not think, however, that once most of the dance is lost to the fusion part that it should still be labeled belly dance. And Maria, this just might be my nooby mind talking, but I've seen a good handful of tribal dancers that keep a great amount of Caberet style moves, if not all or most of them, and then just add in the other styles to their repertoire. Personally I enjoy watching them more because I love seeing the integration of culture/styles. And yes I also do agree that there are just Tribal dancers out there that mostly do hip hop dance and then add a few taxims or whatever and label it belly dance when it's not, so we're not too far off from one another
    The problem with this is that you're concluding that belly dance is just the sum of its movements which it is not. Just because a Tribal dancer is using movements seen in 'cabaret" style doesn't make it a legitimate style of belly dance (not saying that it isn't a legitimate art form, which it is). And I don't know what you mean exactly by "cabaret"...do you mean American Classic? Because "Cabaret" used in the sense to define anything dressed in sequins and dancing to Arabic music doesn't work. Some people don't even consider American Classic to be a style of belly dancing!

    I suggest you read Aisha's article What is Phrasing and Shira's article Why the Fuss Over Egyptian Style Music and Oriental Dance?.

    And I also have to disagree with you on tribal dancers using movements that that are used in "caberet" which I'm going to assume you mean the more traditional styles. I do both and I couldn't even think of one similar movement. Yes, we do hip drops, we shimmy, and we use finger cymbals. But they're both worlds apart. The more I study both, the more I realize how far apart they are. Even the shoulder shimmies which may look the same to the untrained eye, is different! The posture is different, the attitude is different, everything is just so incredibly different.

  8. #88
    Moderator Amulya's Avatar
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    Reading some of the above posts, I wonder: what would you call tribal fusion when you dance for general audience? Most people have no idea what tribal fusion is and where's the tribal in tribal fusion done by one dancer?
    Totally depending on how much belly dance there is left in tribal fusion, I'd still call it belly dance, but with the word tribal fusion or fusion belly dance. I myself do tribaret, but I can't annouce it like that to the general audience (they wouldn't understand that that means!) so if they announce me as belly dancer. Maybe I should call it fusion belly dance for general audience? I still have a lot of classic Egyptian style in my dance to not call it belly dance anymore.
    And how do you call it when you promote your dance to the general public?

  9. #89
    Senior Member nightdancer's Avatar
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    Hecate,

    People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

    I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightdancer View Post
    Hecate,

    People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

    I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.
    It's a sad do, isn't it, when you have to couch your beliefs and words in phrasing peppered with apologies for fear that you upset certain people on this board? Who says you have 'no idea what you're talking about?' There's no 'experts' on here. Though there are those who have been around longer in this dance than others and those who are more knowledgeable. But who deems themselves 'expert'? Who dares do that? What we must remember is that we are all students...all of us. This core of this dance will never crumble beneath the branching out of creativity and fusion that is currently an unstoppable force and is not set to change. It is only the 'Fear' of this that is prevalent here. The reality is quite different.

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