Good for a hafla but not for the general public?

[Hecate]

Nightdancer, thanks! I dunno why I'm typing this, but if you're interested as in why I chose it, you can check out my intro thread to this forum in meet and greet

Regardless, I think I understand where you are going with this. Sort of. I think we as dancers in a whole have our own ideas about how things are to be done. And well while you go to one teacher and they may tell you one thing and the next teacher may tell you another, I think we all need to remember that this is exactly the reason we should rotate teachers from time to time. Everyone has something fresh or new to teach us, and if not, I'm sure they have something to teach - maybe a new view or such.

Or maybe I'm just rambling. I've been known to do so lol. Haha and I wish I just pondered when I'm grouchy instead of all the time *sigh*

 

[maria_harlequin]

I was a bit hurt to read some of the things said about Tribal Style and Tribal Fusion. Yes, I understand that it does differ a bit and sometimes Greatly from Middle Eastern dance, but even as a student now we are learning our roots from middle eastern influences. As my teacher explained it, "the basics are the basics." I interpreted that as when you get down to it, belly dance (whether tribal or not) all starts out as belly dance. Though I also do understand that there are just people who take the fusion part way too far. When fusion is used in our class context, often it's just bits and parts of other dance styles. One such example is when tribal dancers do floreos, a flemenco dance move. It's kinda like the egyptian hands. Small things like that add a bit of variety from the every day norm of the ME style. Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful style and I won't detest that all styles of bellydance (fusion or other) have been birthed from it, but I don't think I could have portrayed it like the lovely ladies who have dedicated themselves to it. Other than that, I don't mean any offense but I don't think it's quiet the style for me either.

Another thing that didn't sit too well with me was the generalization that tribal fusion dancers are rachael brice wannabees, and if you didn't mean it like that then I'm sorry I interpreted it as such. Really why I value tribal fusion and ATS so much is that it values different dance styles and interpretations though all keeping it bellydance. I agree with you Shira when you say that it can't be bellydance when the dancers are mostly doing hip-hop or such.

Anywho's the last thing I agree with is that if all styles should be clarified. Like Tribal Fusion, ATS, Tribal burlesque, and so on. Honestly when it comes to a hafla I wouldn't allow tribal burlesque. Though tribal fusion and ATS in my opinion are clean dance forms that show the beauty of expression as well as it's caberet cousin.

I know I'm just a student but I figured I would just present my view from a tribal perspective, even if it's a novice one

Hi dear!

I'm sorry you were hurt but you should know that most of us here don't have a problem with ATS or Tribal Fusion - our problem is that it's being labeled as Belly Dance when it's clearly not. I'm an ATS and Tribal Fusion dancer myself as well as traditional AmCab and Egyptian but I don't label ATS and Tribal Fusion as belly dance styles.

 

[CottonAnatomy]

That is something that I was surprised to see when I first entered the dance community. All the subgenres of the dance not being considered as subgenres of the dance. heh I think like with anything in it's pure form, it will branch of and become something else. I, personally, think all subgenres of bellydance are still bellydance, but of course just not in it's purest form. Musical genres have plenty of subgenres but you can still easily generalize them and just say rap, rock, country and so on. I think it's the same with dance. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I like to take the more laid back approach to things. :dance:

I do, though, find it important to know the difference between them. Living in the metro Detroit area, which is home to the highest population of middle eastern people in the United States, if I ever wanted to make a living out of performing I would definitly have to know how to do a pure egyptian dance vs some sort of fusion or just tribal.

 

[jenc]

Saw some so called fusion dancing at the weekend - to my mind itb was modern dance NOT bellydance.

Never thought I would get nostalgic for the Rachel Brice clones!!

 

[maria_harlequin]

That is something that I was surprised to see when I first entered the dance community. All the subgenres of the dance not being considered as subgenres of the dance. heh I think like with anything in it's pure form, it will branch of and become something else. I, personally, think all subgenres of bellydance are still bellydance, but of course just not in it's purest form. Musical genres have plenty of subgenres but you can still easily generalize them and just say rap, rock, country and so on. I think it's the same with dance. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I like to take the more laid back approach to things. :dance:

I do, though, find it important to know the difference between them. Living in the metro Detroit area, which is home to the highest population of middle eastern people in the United States, if I ever wanted to make a living out of performing I would definitly have to know how to do a pure egyptian dance vs some sort of fusion or just tribal.

It seems like belly dance is the only dance subjective to the whole "branching" out to myriad of different styles that don't even resemble belly dance anymore. If someone decided to throw in a few flamenco hand florels, no one would call that Hip Hop Flamenco Style. And you don't see a salsa dancer doing chest circles, shimmies, and hip bumps and suddenly calling it Cuban Belly Dance Style. But someone throws in a few hip drops and a shimmy into a routine while waving around a feather fan in a pair of sequined booty shorts and suddenly "Burlesque Style Belly Dance" becomes a legitimate style. Or a dancer is shimmying and isolating to a Beats Antique song and that becomes another style of belly dance.

ATS is also an example. You have dancers waving around a sword, doing high kicks, waving around a sword AND playing a zill and they call it Tribal Fusion. Where's the Tribal in that? A few Egyptians thrown in? Hailing the Cab and a a taxim? Where's the (American) Tribal (Style) in the Tribal Fusion style?

And let me say that I don't have a problem with someone waving a sword around and playing a zill at the same time as long as they don't label it as belly dance. I myself am a Fusionist.

I don't believe in taking a more casual approach to the dance because this is someone else's culture. Belly dance is a dance that is so deeply ingrained with Egyptian culture and its music That by taking a more laid back approach usually reduces it to a dance composed of only its movements which isn't what the dance is about. This is why it's important to stick to the traditional roots of the dance - not only when you're performing for the natives but for the general public as well. I know a guy that's already so misinformed that he thinks that the "Tribal dancers" are the real, ethnic belly dancers while the "cabaret style" dancers are the slutty ones. How sad is that?

 

[Hecate]

That is something that I was surprised to see when I first entered the dance community. All the subgenres of the dance not being considered as subgenres of the dance. heh I think like with anything in it's pure form, it will branch of and become something else. I, personally, think all subgenres of bellydance are still bellydance, but of course just not in it's purest form. Musical genres have plenty of subgenres but you can still easily generalize them and just say rap, rock, country and so on. I think it's the same with dance. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I like to take the more laid back approach to things. :dance:

Thank you Cotton~ That's exactly how I feel!

Maria, I have no problem with your view or anything, it's just that I disagree with some points. And I also think that seeing I stand pretty firm on one side and you on the other that not one of us will budge on the subject, so all in all I say agree to disagree. I just happen to be one of those people who think Tribal IS bellydance.

For the sake of this discussion I'll continue the debate seeing as I feel my views are important too and well I just want to make sure they are clear, just in case anyone wants to further agree or not.

When it comes down to it, I do believe that Tribal and it's forms are belly dance. I do not think, however, that once most of the dance is lost to the fusion part that it should still be labeled belly dance. And Maria, this just might be my nooby mind talking, but I've seen a good handful of tribal dancers that keep a great amount of Caberet style moves, if not all or most of them, and then just add in the other styles to their repertoire. Personally I enjoy watching them more because I love seeing the integration of culture/styles. And yes I also do agree that there are just Tribal dancers out there that mostly do hip hop dance and then add a few taxims or whatever and label it belly dance when it's not, so we're not too far off from one another

And yes, I do find it a bit sad that Any form of belly dance is classified slutty these days. Well except that burlesque stuff. No offense to anyone that does that! I just don't think that that's quite a family friendly type. Plus I don't think it should be a type of belly dance! I think if you want to dance burlesque that perhaps it should be kept at home. I don't know, but I think that when people see that it gives not only tribal a bad name, but caberet and belly dance in general. I think people just start getting the wrong idea. And even if you tried to take time to explain, it's not like they'd pay attention long enough to listen.

 

[maria_harlequin]

When it comes down to it, I do believe that Tribal and it's forms are belly dance. I do not think, however, that once most of the dance is lost to the fusion part that it should still be labeled belly dance. And Maria, this just might be my nooby mind talking, but I've seen a good handful of tribal dancers that keep a great amount of Caberet style moves, if not all or most of them, and then just add in the other styles to their repertoire. Personally I enjoy watching them more because I love seeing the integration of culture/styles. And yes I also do agree that there are just Tribal dancers out there that mostly do hip hop dance and then add a few taxims or whatever and label it belly dance when it's not, so we're not too far off from one another

The problem with this is that you're concluding that belly dance is just the sum of its movements which it is not. Just because a Tribal dancer is using movements seen in 'cabaret" style doesn't make it a legitimate style of belly dance (not saying that it isn't a legitimate art form, which it is). And I don't know what you mean exactly by "cabaret"...do you mean American Classic? Because "Cabaret" used in the sense to define anything dressed in sequins and dancing to Arabic music doesn't work. Some people don't even consider American Classic to be a style of belly dancing!

I suggest you read Aisha's article What is Phrasing and Shira's article Why the Fuss Over Egyptian Style Music and Oriental Dance?.

And I also have to disagree with you on tribal dancers using movements that that are used in "caberet" which I'm going to assume you mean the more traditional styles. I do both and I couldn't even think of one similar movement. Yes, we do hip drops, we shimmy, and we use finger cymbals. But they're both worlds apart. The more I study both, the more I realize how far apart they are. Even the shoulder shimmies which may look the same to the untrained eye, is different! The posture is different, the attitude is different, everything is just so incredibly different.

 

[Amulya]

Reading some of the above posts, I wonder: what would you call tribal fusion when you dance for general audience? Most people have no idea what tribal fusion is and where's the tribal in tribal fusion done by one dancer?
Totally depending on how much belly dance there is left in tribal fusion, I'd still call it belly dance, but with the word tribal fusion or fusion belly dance. I myself do tribaret, but I can't annouce it like that to the general audience (they wouldn't understand that that means!) so if they announce me as belly dancer. Maybe I should call it fusion belly dance for general audience? I still have a lot of classic Egyptian style in my dance to not call it belly dance anymore.
And how do you call it when you promote your dance to the general public?

 

[nightdancer]

Hecate,

People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.

 

[Kharis]

Hecate,

People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.

It's a sad do, isn't it, when you have to couch your beliefs and words in phrasing peppered with apologies for fear that you upset certain people on this board? Who says you have 'no idea what you're talking about?' There's no 'experts' on here. Though there are those who have been around longer in this dance than others and those who are more knowledgeable. But who deems themselves 'expert'? Who dares do that? What we must remember is that we are all students...all of us. This core of this dance will never crumble beneath the branching out of creativity and fusion that is currently an unstoppable force and is not set to change. It is only the 'Fear' of this that is prevalent here. The reality is quite different.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Expert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Based on the above definition, I would argue that we have quite a few 'experts' on these forums.

Furthermore, I dont think they spend their time and energy on these boards for nothing... I certainly have gained plenty from their dedication to understanding and reseaching this dance.

It is up to the individual if they wish to dismiss the information presented.

 

[Amulya]

Hecate,

People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.

Nightdancer, I totally agree with you and might loose my moderatorship together with you LOL.
I don't think you have to appologize for your opinion.

Just musing: so if all those styles wouldn't be allowed to be called belly dance anymore, do the tribal and fusion dancers need their own forums? I don't think so, I think all styles should be able to post on the same forums. I really like the diversity!

 

[Makeda Maysa]

Hecate,

People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.

If it makes you feel better, you have another one over here in your corner.

 

[MissVega]

Hecate,

People are probably going to disown me for this one, but I agree with you. I consider ATS to be bellydance. I'm sorry, but I do. I understand the arguments of "When you throw flamenco hand flourishes and wave a sword about, it ceases to be..." I understand that, and I understand the debate "where is the line where it ceases to be". I've been in the community long enough to understand the debates, understand the point of view. I am one of those that looks at the term (lord, imma lose my modship for this one...) "bellydance" as an overall genre, rather like a tree trunk. From that trunk extends classic Egyptian, ATS, Baladi, and so on. Those are the strongest branches of the tree, those are the ones connected to the trunk. Then you get the sub-branches, the ones that extend off. Thats where the fusions lay. From those fusions extend the itsy-bitsy forms call "WTH". Thats where the "I hear the music, I see a body in costume, I'll be damned if I know what she's doing..." come into play.

I know my view is not going to be popular, and I know that I'll be dismissed "She's got no idea what she's talking about. Bellydance is this, this and this only." That's fine, I'm ok with not being agreed with. Frankly, I think that we desperately need purists in order to keep the form from diluting so badly that said tree falls over. I just want Hecate to know that she's not alone in her view and it's honestly nice to know that someone else agrees with me, as I've long kept my thoughts to myself.

I'm backing you up on this as well as I share a similar view point. When I think traditional, "Pure belly dance", I don't think of the term belly dance I think of Raqs Sharqi, or middle eastern dance. Belly dance from what I have read and been taught is larger a western term for it and I think it pertains to all dances branching off of the roots of the above mentioned tree. All dance evolves for better or for worse sometimes but often when it's for worse there will be someone who will just go back to the beginning and re-establish what has been lost. I agree that purist are great for making it so that a "beginning" is still there to go back to when one gets lost in fusion or just flat out confused with the dance in general.

I would say the ROOTS of the above tree are the folkloric middle eastern dances and raqs sharqi. Without the roots being maintained and functioning properly the rest of the entire plant, tree, or dance will suffer and can even die. The roots are where so many of the nutrients and inspiration come from, they are the heart of the dance. However the roots need to grow up and branch out to bring in the "sunlight", as well as water to maintain survival. Water it essential to the trees survival and while it gets it mainly through the roots, it can also get some from it's leaves which will be on the biggest branches to small twigs. Sustainability can come from both ends. Through branching it can appeal to a wide variety of people and bring in other nutrients or factors that can enrich it's survival. It can find new inspiration. This is a pretty cheesey analogy I know but I feel its true. Belly dance is the plant, but the major LIFELINE of that plant is Middle eastern dance, raqs sharqi, traditional, whatever else you are comfortable calling.

I understand and respect the flip side view to this, but I can't convince my brain to share it.

I do feel sometimes we do not give enough audience credit based on a couple of "bad experiences" we've had along the lines of "Ohh belly dance? Isn't that like pole dancing or stripping" etc etc. Now my answer to that is, well try it out and see for yourself and you'll find they are nothing alike."

When I teach my beginner fusion classes I end up teaching a large majority of belly dance technique and explanations of posture differences and differences in your legs and very strongly state "If you should ever in your life be performing an egyptian belly dane piece make sure that you don't let your legs or pelvis slip into caribbean" etc. I agree in that in order to put the two together you have understand each on their own first. I also recommend that they go to a traditional middle eastern dance class as well and recommend other instructors as I agree as someone mentioned in their thread before to truly be knowledgable on a topic you must NEVER stop being a student of it, ad the more people you can learn from, the better. I believe for the most part we all have something we can offer someone to learn and something we can learn from someone else.

This is my first real post since the whole Caribbean Fusion leading to fusion vs. traditional sh*tstorm that errupted on here. I hated being judged without people knowing me, without having come to my class and without taking the time to talk to me about it first to get clarification. I will never dispute someone's right to their opinion but what I can and will dispute is how they go about flaunting it. I personally don't like mini skirts but I don't berate those who wear them. I don't slam her for encouraging the sexual objectificatin of women. I let her carry on her day as just as she is entitled to like and and wear it I am entitled to not like it but I don't feel the need to tell her that. She may look amazing in her mini skirt. She may feel empowered and not objectified. She may be proud of the muscle in her legs. If I don't know or nderstand why she wears it and the context how can I judge her for it based on MY opinions of it?

But it made me realize I don't dance for the approval of others I dance for myself. I dance for the joy it brings me and the joy I see on the smiling faces of those watching. I teach not with the aim of producing perfect dancers so that everyone goes "Ohh they are so good". I teach to create an environment where people can come to SMILE, have fun, not feel pressured and feel comfortable with who they are and try something new. Learning a new dance is frusterating on it's own from self expectations without the pressures of an instructor or peer. I want them to learn it and learn it properly but without feeling rushed or like I want it done a certain way by a certain time. I keep the term belly dance because I was always taught if you use something you CREDIT it. I want my students to look at fifi abdo as much as I want them to look at DHQ Carlene. I want them to look at belly dance roots, and try middle eastern dance. I want the dance to get the credit it deserves for all the inspiration it has released into the dance community.

If you hate me, my fusion and my opinion then fine. My mommy still loves me

 

[nightdancer]

I feel so much better. I've only gotten a few nasty PMs and emails, too

 

[maria_harlequin]

If you hate me, my fusion and my opinion then fine. My mommy still loves me

No one hates fusion!! Or at least I don't. My problem is labeling, that's all.

 

[Hecate]

Yay, I don't feel so noobish anymore! Wow, I'm really relieved and glad that I'm not the only one in my opinion~ Certainly a large weight off my chest ^^ thanks guys~

And for the rest of you who differ from me in my opinion, that's ok

 

[Kharis]

I feel so much better. I've only gotten a few nasty PMs and emails, too

I was watching a Tribal DVD, featuring Samantha, Rachel Brice, etc only the other day and the moves are mostly belly dance moves. There's no getting away from it. I'm starting to believe that folks don't want the term bellydance mixed in with other dance forms through some kind of fear that they'll get left behind somewhere or unable to link to it themselves anymore. Does it dilute their assumed and self appointed 'expertise'? I dunno. It's all getting very silly and up it's own arse. 100 years from now we'll all be dead, so what's the point in putting so much emphasis on something that's just not that important in the scheme of life.

It's a DANCE, guys... that's all.

 

[Shanazel]

The tree of belly dance theory suits me perfectly, so if moderatorships are endangered by espousing this point of view, add me to the potentially disenfranchised list.