Good for a hafla but not for the general public?

Aniseteph

New member
Exactly!

I don't have a problem with a "girls just wanna have fun" dance party so long as that is what it is called.

I just don't understand why people feel the need to demand that "belly dance" events accept their desire to express themselves in ways that are devoid of anything Middle Eastern. There's nothing wrong with wanting to express yourself in whatever music and clothing choice you wish, but there IS something wrong with expecting a "belly dance" event to let you do it in that environment.

Can't leave you rep for this, but YES! :clap:
 

Shanazel

Moderator
As a fan and performer of ATS/ITS/Tribal Fusion I am quite happy for it not to be called belly dance if that helps keeeping ME dance "safe".

ATS was a brilliant creation that deserved better than the pseudo-legends originally created to give it credence. It also deserves better than to be eternally regarded as sort of a bastard stepchild of belly dance. Up the tribal gals and guys! May your twenty yard skirts forever swirl.

A belly dance show should have belly dance. I don't go to a classical music concert and expect a techno rave piece to cleanse my pallet for the next concerto. :rolleyes:

Depends on whether or not they are playing one of Shastakovitch's more ponderous pieces.;)
 
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Yshka

New member
Caroline Afifi said:
Does anyone have an event near them which is just ME dance with no tricks or frills, or wench outfits?

Is it only me who ever feels any despair about this... am I once again in the minority??? EEK

Dearest Caroline, no you're not. I will give you rep for this tomorrow (I'm too tired to find the button right now lol but will respond).

We did a hafla last year (which was, by the way, no students, just professional dancers and two aspiring troupes). We actually had NO fusion, no other dance forms, no sorts of chiftetelli-clogdancing-batwingsfusion types of dance, We had all Middle Eastern dance all evening, ranging from Khaleegy to 9/8 to Tannoura though, but we had a blast.

I will comment the rest soon. must.....go....sleep..... I was performing all day and went to see the Divine Performing Arts show in Amsterdam, which was ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL (Shen Yun Performing Arts)
 

dreamthief666

New member
ATS was a brilliant creation that deserved better than the pseudo-legends originally created to give it credence. It also deserves better than to be eternally regarded as sort of a bastard stepchild of belly dance. Up the tribal gals and guys! May your twenty yard skirts forever swirl.

Depends on whether or not they are playing one of Shastakovitch's more ponderous pieces.;)
just listen to mahler and wagner they cover a lot in one piece :lol::lol:


thank you i love ats/its and always feel we have to apologise for it. i wouldn't mind if it was cut from bellydance (altough it would be a shame)if it ment it was allowed its place in the dance scene
 
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Caroline_afifi

New member
thank you i love ats/its and always feel we have to apologise for it. i wouldn't mind if it was cut from bellydance (altough it would be a shame)if it ment it was allowed its place in the dance scene

No you dont!! nor do you have to apologise for loving fusion.. I do too )when it is good and not an exuse for 'anything goes').

What people really have to understand is many of us who have been observing the scene over the years, have come to recognise that ME dance has become so diluted it is in danger of becoming extinct in the West.

People take up the dance and get bored with it after 5 mins and turn it into something else.

I am always having to defend my position as I am now in the minority,

'a kill joy, purist ME dance 'Fanatic' who needs to get a life.. :lol:'
 

lizaj

New member
The problem is labelling isn't it?
What is replicating what is done in the ME is belly dance.
Folklore is folklore
and the rest of what we are seeing is world/modern fusion.
There is nothing to say we can't see it on a mixed platform but events as acts should be labelled clearly.
I find the confusion is not just amongst the GP but new belly dancers or belly dancers operating in local bubbles.

Sorry I am not with you today Caro but Ozgen exhausted me last night!
Eh the lad done good...he was e-l-e-c-t-r-i-c!:D
 

Marya

Member
What people really have to understand is many of us who have been observing the scene over the years, have come to recognise that ME dance has become so diluted it is in danger of becoming extinct in the West.

People take up the dance and get bored with it after 5 mins and turn it into something else.

I didn't get bored, but both of my first two teachers were fusion to begin with and while the second one said that the first did not, therefore, it took about 4-5 years before I comprehended that there was a whole nuther world of real authentic ME dance to explore, so much more fascinating and engaging than fusion.

But if a student starts with fusion, what's to keep a student from continuing to think fusion IS Belly dance and that she/he has the right to continue the process?

teachers are responsible for clarifying the differences.

Marya
 

jenc

New member
Yes but I went to one teacher who said she taught Raks Sharqi and fusion so that students could make an informed choice - trouble is she taught them all mixed up without saying which was which!
 

dreamthief666

New member
No you dont!! nor do you have to apologise for loving fusion.. I do too )when it is good and not an exuse for 'anything goes').

What people really have to understand is many of us who have been observing the scene over the years, have come to recognise that ME dance has become so diluted it is in danger of becoming extinct in the West.

People take up the dance and get bored with it after 5 mins and turn it into something else.

I am always having to defend my position as I am now in the minority,

'a kill joy, purist ME dance 'Fanatic' who needs to get a life.. :lol:'

i think when people get to know you they realise thats not you, i do think there is a need to preserve traditional things but celebrate new as well , we should always let the gp know whats what so they understand there is a differance.
 

Aniseteph

New member
... i do think there is a need to preserve traditional things but celebrate new as well , we should always let the gp know whats what so they understand there is a differance.

But what if the dancers don't know the difference? If you go to shows and haflas where anything goes, and aren't the type to spend waay too much time arguing the toss here...
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
And that is exactly the point really.

Like Jenc mentioned, her teacher taught both but never stated which was which, and Marya was taught for a few years before she realised.

It is this sort of thing I want to see end.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
I doubt that will happen though until bellydance gets a "Martha Graham" who sets recognized established standards, including standardizing the movements and styles. Even then you will still get basement teachers with little knowledge teaching to make some extra cash on the side. I learned from a gymnastics teacher like that when I was a kid and it's been established for a loooong time. In a way ATS is way ahead in that regard unless there is some type of certification for Cabaret etc. I haven't heard about.
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
I doubt that will happen though until bellydance gets a "Martha Graham" who sets recognized established standards, including standardizing the movements and styles. Even then you will still get basement teachers with little knowledge teaching to make some extra cash on the side. I learned from a gymnastics teacher like that when I was a kid and it's been established for a loooong time. In a way ATS is way ahead in that regard unless there is some type of certification for Cabaret etc. I haven't heard about.

ATS does have clear boundaries, you are right.

A few years ago, I gave a presentaion about Egyptian dance in the next room to carolina Nerricio who was doing the same about ATS.

From what I heard she was very protective about the style in which she developed and was quite annoyed at the various reditions going around calling itself ATS.

I think these days it is possible to say when something is ATS, fusion, Egyptian and Americal style etc. it just takes a bit of research on the teachers behalf and the ability to recognise what they are teaching.
Many teachers are doing this already and from what i know of many on this firum, they are doing the same.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
ATS does have clear boundaries, you are right.
It's not just the boundaries it's the language as well. From what I understand if you have studied ATS you can discuss it, dance it, write about it, and anyone else who has studied it will know exactly what you are talking about. I go to forums about movements and dance for every other style and I run into "what do you call this", "how do you do that move", "what variation do you use", and " what you call a ____ we call a ____" but the same name will also be used for multiple moves by different people.

Don't get me wrong, I do think the information is out there it's just so scrambled currently. If it wasn't I wouldn't be popping in professionally made instruction videos and being introduced to "the importance of the dance in goddess worship." It makes it a real pain to choreograph (yeah, I'm not good enough to improve yet). I go to write down the moves and it's like what the heck do I write? Sure it's a hip drop but how do I differentiate it from all the other hip drops out there.

Every other dance style I know of has clear definitions and delineations. Until the same can be said of each style of bellydance I doubt it will get taken seriously the way you want. Sure we can recognize it when we see it but how do you teach it? I am not saying we need licensing or anything like that but some type of standardization and certification saying you have learned those standards could go a long way to raising bellydance teachers to a "professional" level.

Sooooo.... who's going to start the first school (as opposed to a class)?;)
 

Shanazel

Moderator
Not me. I'm a child of the 1960s and 1970s who resists regimentation and standardization in the arts. ;)

Carolena Nericcio can offer standards for ATS- she invented it and what Carolena says about ATS is hard to argue with. But who has the final word in Egyptian style? AmCab? Turkish?

Any organization's attempt to establish "official" belly dance standards and certification is unlikely to accomplish anything except add to the number of hits one gets when typing in "belly dance certification" into a search engine.
 

lizaj

New member
Not me. I'm a child of the 1960s and 1970s who resists regimentation and standardization in the arts. ;)

Carolena Nericcio can offer standards for ATS- she invented it and what Carolena says about ATS is hard to argue with. But who has the final word in Egyptian style? AmCab? Turkish?

Any organization's attempt to establish "official" belly dance standards and certification is unlikely to accomplish anything except add to the number of hits one gets when typing in "belly dance certification" into a search engine.

I have to say that's about it!
 

dreamthief666

New member
It's not just the boundaries it's the language as well. From what I understand if you have studied ATS you can discuss it, dance it, write about it, and anyone else who has studied it will know exactly what you are talking about. I go to forums about movements and dance for every other style and I run into "what do you call this", "how do you do that move", "what variation do you use", and " what you call a ____ we call a ____" but the same name will also be used for multiple moves by different people.

Don't get me wrong, I do think the information is out there it's just so scrambled currently. If it wasn't I wouldn't be popping in professionally made instruction videos and being introduced to "the importance of the dance in goddess worship." It makes it a real pain to choreograph (yeah, I'm not good enough to improve yet). I go to write down the moves and it's like what the heck do I write? Sure it's a hip drop but how do I differentiate it from all the other hip drops out there.

Every other dance style I know of has clear definitions and delineations. Until the same can be said of each style of bellydance I doubt it will get taken seriously the way you want. Sure we can recognize it when we see it but how do you teach it? I am not saying we need licensing or anything like that but some type of standardization and certification saying you have learned those standards could go a long way to raising bellydance teachers to a "professional" level.

Sooooo.... who's going to start the first school (as opposed to a class)?;)

I know it would be an hugh task, but maybe it would be a good idea to standadise the major moves in all the traditional forms. as i have had various teachers and a regular comment is "i call this, this but it may be called someting else by others," and to define the difference between turkish and egyptian. calling all the experts
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
I know it would be an hugh task, but maybe it would be a good idea to standadise the major moves in all the traditional forms. as i have had various teachers and a regular comment is "i call this, this but it may be called someting else by others," and to define the difference between turkish and egyptian. calling all the experts

Well I think that would really have to be battled out in the country of origin.

I am not sure that we have already passed the point of that being possible.

Even the scene in Egypt is constantly changeing so I doubt even there they could agree on who decides what to call what.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Well I think that would really have to be battled out in the country of origin.

I disagree. While innovation in the dance needs to come from the country of origin the kind of schooling this would require really needs to come from each individual country. There is nothing keeping schools in each country from communicating with each other to keep it authentic (as this board shows) but just as modern dance had it's leaders in each country that same immediacy is needed to the students in this case. Martha Graham didn't invent modern dance but she sure elevated it just as Mary Wigman did in Europe.

Even if there is differences in the various schools as to what is what as long as everyone in a given 'school' is learning the same things it would create a stability that is missing.


Shanazel said:
Not me. I'm a child of the 1960s and 1970s who resists regimentation and standardization in the arts.
:lol: Careful, you are sounding like the Tribal Fusion dancers who don't see why they can't do anything they want and "call it bellydance".;):D
 
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