the image of a belly dancer

[Andrea Deagon]

I know the stated topic is not the purpose of belly dance, but it IS effectively what people in the general public think the purpose of belly dance is. And it is good to have something to tell them. I go with something like,

"Belly dance is the performance aspect of a kind of social dancing done by men and women of all ages throughout the Middle East. It's done to enhance celebrations, and it's way of expressing pleasure and happiness and sensuality and sometimes deeper emotions through dancing. It's hard not to enjoy the dancing of someone who's enjoying doing it, so I'm not surprised that men find it sexy, but I've found that women usually enjoy it more than men do! The hokey Cleopatra-Hollywood-vamp thing is really a misleading stereotype, so I hope people can put it aside and just enjoy the dancing."

Of course all of this is undermined when "belly dancers" come out and actually DO the hokey Cleopatra-Hollywood-vamp thing.

When I mentioned to a friend at the local skating rink yesterday that my real devotion was to belly dance, she asked if I also did pole dancing. Poor woman, she got an earfull, mainly because I thought we had fought that battle pretty successfully over the past 30-40 years, but when the local pole dancing establishment also offers "belly dance" lessons, you can imagine what those "belly dancers" will learn, and what ideas the general population will form. It's discouraging.

 

[Harry]

I think you put it well, Andrea. Speaking as one who used to view belly dance in the same category as pole dancing, it was an awakening to me to learn differently, and view what it is from the artistic point of view, which is what the legitimate practitioners have been trying, as you say, for many, many years. It's an uphill battle. Even after being exposed to a very artistic practitioner of the art of Middle East dance, my wife :shok: still views it the same as ... ladies of ill repute.

Well, I guess those of us that know/have learned better just need to keep at it, ensuring that the right story is told, which, in time, will improve the image of the belly dancer. So, I think you are "on topic", Andrea.

 

[alosha]

It just really bothers me when dancers portray themselves to the public as harem dancers. It means that I am going to have to explain it to someone who has seen them, then finds out I am a belly dancer as well. I really wish I could post the picture, but i fear the repercussions...

 

[Harry]

The "harem dancer", or even just harems, is another area that I think is misunderstood, but I won't get off topic, except to say that I agree that is one of the mistaken images that is used to generalize ME dance. The really sad part is when you encounter somebody that has these notions and stereotypes, and is intractable about it. There is no changing their minds, but, again, I won't get off topic, except to say that I wish and pray that they would get the message. ray:

 

[Harry]

So, would it be OT to start bashing some of the stereotypes that float around about belly dance? As one who is reformed from that, I can start. Here goes:

STEREOTYPE: Belly dancers gotta have long hair, all the way down to their gluteus maximus.

BASH: First, I think the male belly dancers might take exception. Plus, what in the world does hair length have to do with this art, anyway? It seems to me that extremely long hair could get in the way of some movements.

 

[Moon]

Alosha, it can be very difficult to educate the public. Everyone deserves the chance to be enlightened with the truth and most will accept it at the truth, but some public and even some dancers don't want to be educated.
Some time ago, my teacher gave a small performance together with a ud player and then she told the audience some about the history of bellydance etc., followed by a short workshop. A student who works as journalist for the university newspaper would write a short article about it. The next week, I read the article and almost exploded with anger. It had a picture of my teacher showing only her backside with a hipscarf and it said she had explained "the ladies" (there were also men present) that "the purpose of bellydance is to seduce men" and how sad it was "the ladies didn't have a chance to show off their skills since there were no men present".
I showed my teacher the article and fortunately she sent the news paper an angry letter and it got rectified.
Even if you do your best to educate people, some only hear what they want to hear and when they don't hear that, they just stay with their own truth.

Plus, what in the world does hair length have to do with this art, anyway? It seems to me that extremely long hair could get in the way of some movements.

Very good point. I'm a also member of a long hair devoted forum. There are some bellydancers there who and I show them every time again videos of Egyptian dancers wearing their hair in different styles than just long and down. Nothing wrong with long hair, but if you feel it gets in the way while dancing you shouldn't be afraid wearing it in a different style than down is inaccurate or whatever.

 

[awkwardangel]

I agree with you alosha.
People assume bellydance to be a sexual dance and its not. It really annoys me when I tell people I'm a bellydancer and its almost like the take a step back and look at me like its sick.
It of course doesn't help that many singers use bellydance in their videos etc in a sexual way.
Somehow us bellydancers need to find a way to get this false image out of people's heads!!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Ok, I have a question...

Do people feel that there is any aspect of belly dance which is culturally part of some form of sex industry (or equivalent) ?

 

[lizaj]

So, would it be OT to start bashing some of the stereotypes that float around about belly dance? As one who is reformed from that, I can start. Here goes:

STEREOTYPE: Belly dancers gotta have long hair, all the way down to their gluteus maximus.

BASH: First, I think the male belly dancers might take exception. Plus, what in the world does hair length have to do with this art, anyway? It seems to me that extremely long hair could get in the way of some movements.

In some instances, dancers use their hair as "props"..long straight hair particularly black. Dancers dance with their hair and this does help make them look "authentic".
Many dancers will feel it's necessary to wear an appopriate wig .
With shoulder length bouncy curly hair there is no way I can do head tosses that look authentic.(Well that's Ok actually as arthritis set in long ago)
So actually as a steroetype, it's a forgiveable one, I think.

 

[lizaj]

Ok, I have a question...

Do people feel that there is any aspect of belly dance which is culturally part of some form of sex industry (or equivalent) ?

I wouldn't want to phrase it like that but I cannot think of this dance as anything else as sensually very attractive :that's ranging from gentle fun or charm to full "in your face" sexy man or woman dancing.
Tell me Randa or Fifi isn't sexy and I will need to rethink my attitude.
Tell me there's isn't something sexy about Rachel Brice or in a different way powerful ATS dancers
Tell me there isn't something sexy about Turkish Rom especially done by Ozgen!!!!

It's the "how" that matters. A dancer can convey that s/he is sexy without saying I am available for "private" hire.
But that does exist, maybe not so much (or even at all) in the West but it sure does "over there". So I am sure that for some Turks and Egyptians the word "bellydancer" is synonimous with "prostitute" and for a fair number with "lady of somewhat easy virtue". So that is interwoven with the society.

When I bought a Tape (Gosh that's going back) of obviously bellydance music in Tunisia, the vendor came very close,beathing in my ear and leering "Ah madam is bellydancer then?" my reply and the cause of him backng off and bowing slightly " I dance just with ladies at parties" Yes I bit of a lie but I suddenly became respectable!

 

[Marya]

Ok, I have a question...

Do people feel that there is any aspect of belly dance which is culturally part of some form of sex industry (or equivalent) ?

In one of Naguib Mahfouz's "shorter" novels, Midaq Alley, one of the main female characters is recruited to be a prostitute. She is sent to a special school to learn several things (this being during WWII) She has classes in Oriental Dance and Western dance, (these are the words the translator used) as well as English. It is a rather wonderful novel with several sub plots.

Marya

 

[Harry]

...
It's the "how" that matters. A dancer can convey that s/he is sexy without saying I am available for "private" hire.
...

Key point, I think, Liza. If I am reading you correctly, you go one to mention interpretation by different cultures. There are some cultures, dating back to a time when women were property shok:...uhoh, I know I'm gonna hear about this one...), in which, women that look sexy are thought to be "available." The more enlightened (imho) cultures, I think, have adopted a "sexy, yes, but it is art, historical in perspective" attitude. It is possible to pin some sort of sexual label on many forms of dance, including classical ballet shok:...I'll probably hear about this one, too...).

In short, it appears to me to be an issue of continued, albeit slow, education of society to accept the belly dance art as sensual without attaching sexual labels. Of course, like happens with everything else that is decent, there are those who would exploit and corrupt. This becomes the breeding ground for attaching sexual labels and causes the rampant stereotyping. I believe that to be the battleground of today's serious belly dance artist.

Then, I'm not a dancer, just an observer looking on from the outside.:redface:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

If Belly dance was not at least partly about sex, then why on earth would the image and costume be so sexy?

Think about where it originates and how most people (particularly women) dress.

I do agree there is a difference between sexy and sensual but is it about intent or about how it is perceived?? who decides?

I was in a Russian restuarant on Saturday night and the performer was from the Moscow state circus. She did amazing contorsions... most of which involved the splits whilst balancing on her hands and thrusting her crotch inches from our faces whilst we were eating. I was shocked to be honest,
I thought I was about to see what she had ate for her dinner.

This was harmless gymnastic circus fun, but it looked very like pole dancing to me.

All the children seemed to like it.

 

[karena]

My tupance worth, women (in my bit of the world, and other bits I see, obviously I don't see the whole world) are sexualised. So the way things women do are presented and seen can be seen through that lens. Lots of dance costumes are sexy. Why is a huge question, which could give lots of different answers, but I don't think BD is so different. The degree to which they are sexualised depends on the context. The pole dancer is more sexualised than the circus perfomer, the BDer is more sexualised than the samba dancer. Why dips into stuff that gets discussed here.

So BD can be seen as more sexy, but that for me is just how it is seen at this point in time, based on loads of stuff that has happened in the past, is happening now, that has formulated different world views.

If Belly dance was not at least partly about sex, then why on earth would the image and costume be so sexy?

The acrobat wears a costume so her movements can be seen and she has freedom of movement
The BDer wears a costume so her movements can be seen and she has freedom of movement

One of those would be accepted, the other would often be met with 'you're kidding yourself'. Where's the difference really?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

My tupance worth, women (in my bit of the world, and other bits I see, obviously I don't see the whole world) are sexualised. So the way things women do are presented and seen can be seen through that lens. Lots of dance costumes are sexy.

I was going to ask why and then...

Why is a huge question,

:think:

which could give lots of different answers, but I don't think BD is so different.

Take its geography and culture into consideration, the dominant religion of the region etc.

The degree to which they are sexualised depends on the context.

Ok, so most dancers started out and some still perform to audiences with a high percentage(if not 100%) male audience.

The pole dancer is more sexualised than the circus perfomer,

Why, is it the way they hold their mouth?

the BDer is more sexualised than the samba dancer. Why dips into stuff that gets discussed here.

:think:

So BD can be seen as more sexy, but that for me is just how it is seen at this point in time, based on loads of stuff that has happened in the past, is happening now, that has formulated different world views.

I think it has always been seen like that personally.

The acrobat wears a costume so her movements can be seen and she has freedom of movement

yes, but not flesh coloured tights and little black knickers for the Olympic games.

The BDer wears a costume so her movements can be seen and she has freedom of movement

I dont buy that one at all. The Ghawazee had no problems with all their layers and niether did the Ouled nail.

One of those would be accepted, the other would often be met with 'you're kidding yourself'. Where's the difference really?

The eye of the beholder which is why i questioned who is right?

 

[Harry]

Carolyn, I like your observation about "eye of the beholder". Not only that, I think there is a mind trick involved. For example, regardless of gender, there are those that, in their mind, can sexualize another individual, regardless of the activity (as a musician instrumentalist, I've gotten some of this). Now, as to where, why, and how such individuals develop this ... trait, there are numerous possibilities. Better minds have dealt with this one for years.

I suppose the answer is that it is incumbent on us to pursue our arts, and when faced with a sexualization situation, deal with it in a mature manner. In the case of belly dance, there are the intractables. They will never change their opinion, no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Carolyn, I like your observation about "eye of the beholder".

Thank you Harry.

I used to think that this dance was totally misunderstood and it is not sexy and all that..

To ne honest, I have changed ny mind completely and I think that it is dancers who have got it wrong.

What percentage of any audience as any given time does it take to be 'right'?

In other words, if most people all of the time percieve this dance as sexual then are they all wrong? do they just need educating?

Here are some images of dancers, I have not selected them for any reason other than they are identified as dancers.

Now if these images are not filled with 'Eastern promise' then tell me what is?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

And here is something almost identical to the 'gymnast' from the Moscow State circus we saw in the Russian Restaurant.

This was at 8.30pm in a family restaurant.

Dreamthief... where are you?? back me up here please, am I exaggerating?

 

[kayshier]

just a question, i haven't read the thread in its entirety, just the last 2 pages.

do you all think the notion of sexiness and all its connotations in oriental dance is necesarily a bad thing? something to be thrown out because then the general public would take the dance more seriously?

 

[alosha]

It's not the sexiness I have an issue with. I'm with caroline on this one. You can't say this isn't a sexy dance, but you don't have to make it overtly sexual. Like having the choice between capris and a mini skirt- both are nice when used correctly, but one shouldn't wear booty shorts to a Disney movie. You dont belly dance in peoples laps, and you don't do it in your skivvies.

The issue that started all of this for me was the harem girl scanario. That we do this dance for men because they demand we do. THAT is what gets to me.