the image of a belly dancer

[alosha]

given a recent event here in my town, i'm curious about something.

I am a student dancer, and i have always thought that the image of a belly dancer should be the same as that of a ballet dancer or a jazz dancer, etc. Respectable, pretty costume, nice movements, engaging to the public, etc. Respectable being the key. I HATE HATE HATE when belly dancers are portrayed as 'harem dancers' and anything that relates the dance to being done for the benefit of a man (or men). Yes, it's sexy, we've had that thread already. What i'm talking about is perpetuating the image of belly dance being a dance done by women to seduce or entice men.

Isn't this something that all belly dancers SHOULD know? Could someone who's been a belly dancer for 4-5-6 years NOT know that belly dance is not a 'harem dance'?

 

[Kashmir]

Playing devil's advocate ('cos I really dislike those harem fantasies too), an experienced dancer may use those myths at times as theatre - not as the whole shebang. For instance a tableau within a large show.

Also sometimes you are hired for exactly that - my gig last night was a fantasy harem party - women in yashmaks and sheer harem pants, men with drawn on beards and big swords. They didn't hire me to lecture them on the perils of orientalism or give them art dance. They wanted a scandalous "belly dancer" - and that is what they got.

That said any one with more than 12 months experience should be able to distinguish myth from reality - and certainly anyone who teaches. Yet many use it as a hook for attracting students - I would hope eventually they'd come clean though.

 

[lizaj]

Playing devil's advocate ('cos I really dislike those harem fantasies too), an experienced dancer may use those myths at times as theatre - not as the whole shebang. For instance a tableau within a large show.

Also sometimes you are hired for exactly that - my gig last night was a fantasy harem party - women in yashmaks and sheer harem pants, men with drawn on beards and big swords. They didn't hire me to lecture them on the perils of orientalism or give them art dance. They wanted a scandalous "belly dancer" - and that is what they got.

That said any one with more than 12 months experience should be able to distinguish myth from reality - and certainly anyone who teaches. Yet many use it as a hook for attracting students - I would hope eventually they'd come clean though.

Exactly and in placing that kind of act in a theatrical tableau and saying it is a fantasy says it is not necessarily a belly dancing turn. That helps the audience and our image.

 

[khanjar]

Personally my thought is to rid an erroneous idea of the past, existing dancers should work against this notion of the hareem. Maybe even as an actor has the ability to refuse work of a certain nature, dancers should start doing so too. Make the image of the hareem something not to aspire to, perhaps even something unacceptable to the serious. Form a definition of BD, those that do it for the art of the dance and those that do it for the fantasy of the dance. Call hareem dance just that hareem dance or better fantasy hareem dance for those that want to do it and an audience that want to see it.

The only way an image of a thing can be changed is by those involved working on changing it, that is, deny work that promotes a fantasy, and to answer those that say one has to take whatever work there is, even work that works against the truth, what are you doing, selling your soul to dance. Honestly, will anything ever change if this attitude continues.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

well Khanjar, I have long took that postion but that is my personal choice.

I agree that change would happen if we made ourselves unavailable for these things.

However, we are i the middle of a financial crisis so I imagine there will be alot of personally negotiated principles going on.

Now if I had to do a 'Hareem fantasy', I would really have to act as I would loathe every minite.

One of the reasons I decided to produce dance theatre was to explore these issues and play the various parts but within a context.

I keep the 'me' dance strictly what I want to do.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

given a recent event here in my town, i'm curious about something.

I am a student dancer, and i have always thought that the image of a belly dancer should be the same as that of a ballet dancer or a jazz dancer, etc. Respectable, pretty costume, nice movements, engaging to the public, etc. Respectable being the key. I HATE HATE HATE when belly dancers are portrayed as 'harem dancers' and anything that relates the dance to being done for the benefit of a man (or men). Yes, it's sexy, we've had that thread already. What i'm talking about is perpetuating the image of belly dance being a dance done by women to seduce or entice men.

Isn't this something that all belly dancers SHOULD know? Could someone who's been a belly dancer for 4-5-6 years NOT know that belly dance is not a 'harem dance'?

Hi Alosha,

This is another complex issue.

Yes, we need to educate the audience into not seeing us as strippers etc.

But there has been many debates etc. regarding where to draw the line and the public image.

We have recently started to discuss the image of a belly dancer on other threads. There was one were i displayed various images for comment, and invited others to add their own for discussion. Image is very much part of how people see us.

The way in which we dance is another.

Like Kashmir said, some people hire dancers for the naughty cheese.

I am dancing at a wedding today, the groom is Lebanese and the Bride is from Pakistan.

They want entertianment but they want it covered up so that is what they will get.

The groom has contacted me several times over the weeks, he really wants dancers, the zaffa etc. to represent his culture but he is terrified of the whole belly dance thing.

 

[khanjar]

Yes we are amidst a financial crisis globally, and yes I can understand , one being a professional dancer might well have to take work of an undesirable nature to put food on the plate, but even if the world was not in such dire straits, financial crisis's are always present at one time or other with the individual, ethics versus employment is a toughie.

But my thoughts were aimed at the non professional, the '' hobby '' dancer, those that have alternative means of income or even professionals who do not rely solely on dance for their income.

Fantasy hareem dance, is fine for those that want to do it, if people enjoy or want to be a fantasy for men, let them do it, but make a distinction between it and BD as a whole.

 

[alosha]

what is the other thread?

I'm a town where most people haven't been exposed to belly dance really, and it's kind of a good-ol-boy kind of town. For a lot of them, their only exposure to this dance is through these dancers. This was a family event, with many many children and parents, and with their children around i feel the public may have been even more bothered by the image of a man and his scantily clad harem.

 

[eden eyes]

this saturday I did a gram for a family reunion/wedding celebration/ luau party for some VERY southern people (bluegrass and unhealthy food! it felt like home lol). they absolutely loved it and men and women both gave me tips (i made quite a bit of money!!). however, some tried to put money in my bra or in the butt part of my belt. one lady even said "i just have to admire those!" as she tried to put a handful of freaking quarters in my bra. physically that wouldn't even work, and it's really inappropriate! then when i was leaving to go get changed, the lady i was with was following me with all my money in her hands and someone asked, "Are you her pimp?" and she just looked at her and snorted, "No, I'm her bodyguard."

pimp? pimp?!!!! what the hell?! did i look like a hooker?! no, i looked like a princess rotest:

 

[Shanazel]

Many years ago, I flatly refused to perform with a local troupe because of their insistence on making "harem slave girls dance so well that their owner frees them" part of the theme of a show. They thought feminism had completely robbed me of my sense of humor and I thought they could use a consciousness raising session. The concept still gives me the cauld grue.

 

[Afrit]

Belly dance is primarily "dance". If you are performing as dancers in public you should be dancing. However, sometimes you are acting and dancing. But you don't need to believe it.

Anyone with a decent teacher - let alone teachers and pro-performers - should be aware that it isn't about seduction (or birthing rituals or sacred priestesses).

 

[khanjar]

Many years ago, I flatly refused to perform with a local troupe because of their insistence on making "harem slave girls dance so well that their owner frees them" part of the theme of a show. They thought feminism had completely robbed me of my sense of humor and I thought they could use a consciousness raising session. The concept still gives me the cauld grue.

One of the things that irks me about this hareem fantasy, is the notion of people as slaves. People that want to act this concept out as a fantasy just bewilders me. My reasoning is the west has rid the concept of slavery long ago, why do we need to keep bringing it up, it is just plain wrong, and slavery is not a fantasy subject. Those that fantasize about such a thing don't know the half of it, it was not all sequins and jewels, people were treated as animals and in some cases worse than animals and of a lesser value. Slavery is not a fantasy, and I would wish all to realise the error of thinking it is.

 

[eden eyes]

sort of off-topic example

i agree with khanjar on this one most def! and though i hate to pull us off topic, here's an example to his explanation: gladiators were slaves, and are often romanticized by movies and books and artwork; that they would secretly win the ladies' hearts and were celebreties. these men DIED FOR SPORT in very horrific ways. and what's worse, the death toll was recorded for the animals (lions, tigers, and bears, oh my!) that were killed in the arena. the actual gladiators themselves? not a care in the world.

again, had to throw that in there as an example to the whole "slave" fantasy thing.

alosha, did people at this event say things to you about hareem dancing of anything particular? as if they actually knew what they were talking about

 

[alosha]

no, some local dancers portrayed themselves as harem dancers. I was invited to do the event with them, but couldn't do it once i knew what they were doing.

 

[gisela]

I definitely agree with Khanjar too. The slave and/or whore fantasy is horrible.
And Shanazel, I know what you mean about humor. I hate when you get accused of having no humor just because you want either equality or don't want to do some weird fusion.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

The thing is, many dancers and teachers are not trained in the art of 'political correctness' and therefore many often do things which are taboo in this sense.

I remeber a musician once getting bent out of shape because a belly dancer dressed member of the audience up in 'Arab' style clothes.

The dancer and the audience thought it was fun but the band thought it was disrespectful.

Now this is a topic to be discussed and debated, however, dancing slaves is not... it is ignorance at the highest level.

This is why I think teachers should not hide themselves away but be out there educating themselves, because one day they will do something and it will come right back and bite them on the backside.

My favourite saying is ignorance is NOT bliss and when you have decided to put yourself in the role of 'educator' then there really are no exuses.

 

[lizaj]

Belly dance is primarily "dance". If you are performing as dancers in public you should be dancing. However, sometimes you are acting and dancing. But you don't need to believe it.

Anyone with a decent teacher - let alone teachers and pro-performers - should be aware that it isn't about seduction (or birthing rituals or sacred priestesses).

Unfortunately that image held sway for a long time and I doubt it will go awy just yet..
I'm not sure you can lump together the teachers and dancers take what I call the "Carry On Bellydancing" or Pantomine approach to the dance and the goddess brigade. The dressing up in a the Hollywood image of eastern dancing girls etc.is one the GP,unless they have been to a ME restaurant or on holiday to EGypt or Turkey ( an hey what will they see there but sexy-looking girls) And dancing did happen in the Harem. I'm sure mostly for the entertainment of each other but that women did try to keep the sultan favourably disposed towards them and their children..in other words seduction was political. Women used what weapons they had to stay in favour, in power, to stay safe. The harem was a politicallly charged place, we are told. So it is not wrong in my eyes to act- yes that's the word -this scenario in a theatrical presentation. BUT the important thing is to put it in the correct context and inform you audience. It's not really a belly dance performance per se rather an historical re-enactment.
The trouble is of course we imbue all this with fantasy, make it stand alone and it becomes this cheesy little scene that confuses and ill-informs the audience about what oriental dance is all about.
Ah the goddess-smodess brigade. Completely different. These are women who have chosen to take a religious movement, a belief system and hijack belly dancing for the purposes of reestablishing feminine power in worship. Again political and different from those who like the Hollywood dressing up box. You can tell I have no time for that but plenty of women are quite quite seriously involved in that. It's all quite quite different to harem fantasy.
And I hate to say it but there are some good teachers of technique involved in that approach. I don't think you can condemn them in the same breath.
I have no time for either approach but I will have my detractors. ie I have lost my sense of fun and I haven't been converted to the true way yet!


Mmmm yes not about seduction..well of course dancers like myself get up there knowing full well we are not trying to cop off with the guys but I have had sad old middle aged and elderly persons ( like myself) tell me they thought I was a bit tasty. One guy came up at a fnd raising and said " Ey that was getting me right hot under the collar, girl...lovely" and I was, a late 50- something clad in full tribal gear..barely an inch of flesh showing. There's no accounting for taste:lol: and don't tell me that you don't feel good when you dance and that in its' self is sensual. So you get a gorgeous looking young women in her two piece with a natty cleavage and long leg show and guys won't find that attractive..I think so! But the message will be is that the dancer is "not looking" and that is her skill. That it's look don't touch...you may not be seducing but you will be admired so it's somewhere along the line like it or not.
And the image of the belly dancer in Egyptian film..the image acted by some of the finest dancers ever; Samia, Tahia, Naima, Fifi .the seductive and often very naughty girl.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Lizaj (And the image of the belly dancer in Egyptian film..the image acted by some of the finest dancers ever; Samia, Tahia, Naima, Fifi .the seductive and often very naughty girl.

[/QUOTE]

We do have to bare in mind the context of those films.

Afrita Hanem is a comedy and Samia plays a Genie, it is totally ficticious.

Re-enactments should really be clearly described and thisis an obvious case of acting.

I also think that before anyone just 're-enacts' these scenes, they should really know why and what they want to audience to get from it..

or it is in grave danger of becoming just another negative Arab image.

 

[lizaj]

We do have to bare in mind the context of those films.

Afrita Hanem is a comedy and Samia plays a Genie, it is totally ficticious.

Re-enactments should really be clearly described and thisis an obvious case of acting.

I also think that before anyone just 're-enacts' these scenes, they should really know why and what they want to audience to get from it..

or it is in grave danger of becoming just another negative Arab image.

Exactly the context is all important and an audience must be informed!

 

[Marya]

We do have to bare in mind the context of those films.

Afrita Hanem is a comedy and Samia plays a Genie, it is totally ficticious.

Re-enactments should really be clearly described and thisis an obvious case of acting.

I also think that before anyone just 're-enacts' these scenes, they should really know why and what they want to audience to get from it..

or it is in grave danger of becoming just another negative Arab image.

[/QUOTE]
There are other Egyptian movies with a women dancing for a man in a bedroom, (presumably man and wife but can't tell from a you tube clip) with the man obviously getting "warm". But it is also obvious even from a short clip that they have privacy. I think part of the problem with Harem fantasy is that they may in fact have a element of truth to them, but harems were not public places and none of the women in a harem would ever be seen in public.

I recently read a book about a woman who was part of the last Turkish Sultans household (harem) I am beginning to believe that a lot of the stories about harems are actually from Turkey but are considered to be true for all ME countries.

The book is called The Imperial Harem of the Sultans by Leyla (Saz) Hanimefendi. It is a memoir edited by the grandchildren and as such is sure to have errors, never the less it is a very good book and I highly recomend it.

Marya