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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi View Post
    so called trolls dip in with a wooden spoon then duck out again.

    I dont like to see this forum get slammed because it has been the most educational forum for me personally.

    Bhuz is different, but that too has many threads which go something like

    'bla bla bla ...RANT!!!! '

    So I guess most forums have threads which are about letting off steam and having a gripe, moan or winge about something.

    The difference is with this forum, is we have people who do speak arabic and do engage in very valuable and much needed discussions about an art form that comes from the Middle East.

    It saddens me that this in itself seems to annoy people at times.

    If the the ME people of this forum left tomorrow this would be a forum with a big almighty hole because it would be lacking input that some people never get and are unlikely to ever get.

    It is an international forum which communicates in English language.
    The 'English' are a small group of people who make up just one part of a tiny island... so what does that tell us about history?

    Let people set up threads in any language they want and hope they still manage to be bothered to share their thoughts in English with everyone regardless of what it is they have to say.

    This is an international forum so we might want to remember that when we express ourselves, regardless of who is wrong or right.

    This forum is smacking of domination and alienation.

    The language used and the terms which they are expressed have been unwisely chosen.

    I think that in many ways A'isha kept this forum together as it seems to have decended into utter chaos and a free for all saloon fight since she left...

    now what the hell is that all about??

    I am off to Cairo now and I hope it has all calmed down by the time I get back and we have not had any more casualties.


    THANK YOU, Caroline! Enjoy and have a safe trip.

  2. #22
    V.I.P. Reen.Blom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayshier View Post
    Reen I understand what you are saying, but if someone wants to vent frustruation...espeically a member of this forum, there is the you tube thread they can look at..lots of ways to vent frustration there by just laughing or smiling or being in awe of some of the videos
    Unforunatly, so often, we cant even begin to fathom to depth of pain and grief some people go through.... So being a little more tolerant and kind can go a looooong way......

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reen.Blom View Post
    I think we are all too quick to label... Give each person a benefit of doubt! Why we think we KNOW all the meanings? Same words might mean something else on the other side of the world!

    If in UK youtel a girl she is sexy its a compliment, back at home it means she's a slut.

    Come on people, be a little more patient. After all you might not know what a person is going through in 'real' life. Maybe its a way to vent frustrations, or voice smth they have to be quiet about otherwise.

    It is better to be a little more careful, we all have too much stress outside the forum.

    Not so quick to judge!


    HUGS,
    reen.blom
    Wise words. But I do believe also that just because we may be suffering in our personal lives, does not give us the right to be horrible to others.

  4. #24
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    Now that Salome has stepped in, I want to say that calling another member a troll just because they disagree with you is unacceptable. This thread is unacceptable.

    Awasef has identified herself in the Arabic thread which she started, and I can assure you that she is not a troll. The discussion in that thread was related to dance at some point, and even if it wasn't, it's in the off topic.

    Kharmine, you referring to Awasef, Summerdancer and other Arabic members on this board as "the Taliban" is demeaning and disgusting.

    It is quite obvious that you'd love it if Awasef left, you would like it if ALL the Arab members on this forum left. You were rejoicing when Aisha left and you couldn't help not bash and attack her, because you cannot stand anyone that contributes with informative posts that do not agree with your own agenda, hence your unsuccessful attempts in the past to drive us, the Arab members, out with your snide, jabbing comments. But we survived, despite it all.

    I am writing this in behalf of all Arab members on this forum, who told me to tell you that this is not going to happen anytime soon. They will not leave the forum, in fact, more Arab members will be joining the forum in the future. Deal with it!

  5. #25
    V.I.P. Kharmine's Avatar
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    There have been some very wise words said here. I especially agre with what Rheen.Boom has said about more tolerance and love being needed.

    I brought up the "troll" point because it seemed that a very few people were using the board to regularly engage in more than lively, even heated debate. Yes, most of us can "get into it," and then there will be the odd snide remark or mild jab in some people's direction.

    That's to be expected. That's why we have moderators and forum rules. And if everyone respected both, IMHO, we'd have fewer problems.

    But a very few people seem less interested in finding common ground to enjoy regarding Oriental dance and its cultural contexts and more focused on jumping aggressively on any post or thread they don't like the tone of.

    If something can be viewed in the worst possible interpretation, that's the one they seem to go for immediately, rather than try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, ask questions in a neutral tone, and try to see if there is anything else going on.

    If people do try to reach out to some of these folks who insist they have been wronged in some way -- that hand gets slapped away. And for some of these chronically offended souls, no amount of explanation, apology or attempt to reason or reach better understanding seems to be enough.

    They don't seem to believe in agree-to-disagree, in finding common ground, in giving the benefit of the doubt, or even in taking personal grievances offline so airing them doesn't drag others into it. If Salome addresses their issues privately, they've been known to take it public, directly or indirectly.

    When things do manage to simmer down, there always seem to be the same people who keep trying to fan any sparks into a new flame war. A post or even a new thread seems to be designed just to keep the general heartburn going.

    Their motives are always supposed to be pure or justified, but others' are always suspect and can't be interpreted in any positive way.

    They say it's always someone else's fault that things don't get better; they're always the victims, and their aggression is always justified. They'll try to drive wedges between their friends and anyone they regard as enemies.

    It's not all members of a particular cultural/ethnic group, either -- although at least member of that group wants to make that issue the driving wedge between Arabs/Muslims and those of other ethnic and religious groups on this board. It's a false issue, and I hope intelligent people of all backgrounds don't fall for it.

    This person and I have some history between us -- she has ignored any attempts at making peace -- and she has done her darndest to draw other Arabs/Muslims into her personal conflict, even when I don't know them and have had no dealings with them.

    I did make a reference once in a heated moment to some people behaving like the Taliban -- only after a good person and longtime forum participant was accused of being "Klan" and racist. If the moderator deleted that comment as well as the Klan comments, well and good.

    We had one longtime participant who cracked down on any challenge to her opinion with a heavy hand and maybe that gave the impression that she "held the forum together" -- but that's giving her credit she is not due (ask the other people who felt driven out by her rudeness).

    Let's remember that is is Salome, who created this web site, pays for it, and tries to keep it a place we can all enjoy. She is like the hostess of a party; she deserves respect even when we disagree with her decisions.

    New people come onto the forum, or past participants rejoin, and they don't have any idea of what's been going on -- all they know is that people they've learned to like are being attacked or saying they're offended.

    Naturally, they tend to "side" with their new/old friends and see others they're not as familiar with as being just mean and unreasonable. A few of these folks may even join in with the belittling, challenging and denigration of people they don't know from God's elbow.

    The people who keep these flame wars simmering may not be anonymous, but their intent seems to be the same as trolls -- to keep turning up the flame under any possible pot until it boils over.

    What is then the recourse? Do we just put up with them, ignore their posts and look away when people are actually being bullied? When we stumble -- justly or not in their eyes -- do we try to offer better understanding, even when continually slapped in the face for our efforts?

    I -- and many others, I'm sure -- would like to know. Because although these people are regulars and not quite anonymous, and don't confine themselves to throwing a grenade and running, they are otherwise doing exactly what trolls do.
    Last edited by Kharmine; 04-30-2009 at 06:57 PM. Reason: clarity

  6. #26
    Member summerdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post

    But a very few people seem less interested in finding common ground to enjoy regarding Oriental dance and its cultural contexts and more focused on jumping aggressively on any post or thread they don't like the tone of.

    If something can be viewed in the worst possible interpretation, that's the one they seem to go for immediately, rather than try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, ask questions in a neutral tone, and try to see if there is anything else going on.

    I ask you. How many times can we keep giving the benefit of the doubt? There are offenders here with very clear agendas. Believe it or not, the Arab hatred reads quite clearly. How long can we keep turning the other cheek? Why do we always have to guess at your intentions? In this forum, all we can go on is your words. When you repeatedly bash us, even subtly, we will speak out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    If people do try to reach out to some of these folks who insist they have been wronged in some way -- that hand gets slapped away. And for some of these chronically offended souls, no amount of explanation, apology or attempt to reason or reach better understanding seems to be enough.

    They don't seem to believe in agree-to-disagree, in finding common ground, in giving the benefit of the doubt, or even in taking personal grievances offline so airing them doesn't drag others into it. If Salome addresses their issues privately, they've been known to take it public, directly or indirectly.
    I don't think anyone here refuses to have differences of opinion. That's what makes this place informative and stimulating.

    BTW, an apology would squashed all the anger/frustration/offense of the Arab/Muslim thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    When things do manage to simmer down, there always seem to be the same people who keep trying to fan any sparks into a new flame war. A post or even a new thread seems to be designed just to keep the general heartburn going.

    Their motives are always supposed to be pure or justified, but others' are always suspect and can't be interpreted in any positive way.

    They say it's always someone else's fault that things don't get better; they're always the victims, and their aggression is always justified. They'll try to drive wedges between their friends and anyone they regard as enemies.

    This is not High School. We are all free-thinking adults. Assuming that we are standing around siding with our friends is insulting. I have agreed and disagreed with just about everyone here at some point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    Let's remember that is is Salome, who created this web site, pays for it, and tries to keep it a place we can all enjoy. She is like the hostess of a party; she deserves respect even when we disagree with her decisions.

    New people come onto the forum, or past participants rejoin, and they don't have any idea of what's been going on -- all they know is that people they've learned to like are being attacked or saying they're offended.

    Naturally, they tend to "side" with their new/old friends and see others they're not as familiar with as being just mean and unreasonable. A few of these folks may even join in with the belittling, challenging and denigration of people they don't know from God's elbow.
    We do respect Salome. Many people went to her to report the offensive thread. We are all here because this place is important to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    The people who keep these flame wars simmering may not be anonymous, but their intent seems to be the same as trolls -- to keep turning up the flame under any possible pot until it boils over.

    What is then the recourse? Do we just put up with them, ignore their posts and look away when people are actually being bullied? When we stumble -- justly or not in their eyes -- do we try to offer better understanding, even when continually slapped in the face for our efforts?

    I -- and many others, I'm sure -- would like to know. Because although these people are regulars and not quite anonymous, and don't confine themselves to throwing a grenade and running, they are otherwise doing exactly what trolls do.
    I wish you'd at least have the courage to call out whomever you feel is trolling. Just like you should have the courage to call us Arabs Taliban to our face; rather than hidden in innuendo.

  7. #27
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    Kharmine,

    No amount of going back and editing as you regularly do for uhm "clarity" is going to make anything you said more excusable or palatable. As I mentioned in my last post, this is not a one member issue, but ALL the Arab and Muslim members on this forum have taken this stand.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by summerdance View Post


    I wish you'd at least have the courage to call out whomever you feel is trolling. Just like you should have the courage to call us Arabs Taliban to our face; rather than hidden in innuendo.
    Summer, I think we should just drop it at this point. I really hope Salome is reading this.

  9. #29
    V.I.P. Ariadne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    "An Internet troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion".
    A troll is a troll is a troll and it doesn't require someone to drop a bomb and walk off to qualify. Some of the biggest trolls I have met online stay around as long as they can (until banned) just to keep stirring the pot.

    It qualifies as troll behavior if a message is posted for the purpose of ticking people off or to disrupt the topic. Leave or stay it is still trolling.

    I have nothing to say on the personal discussions on the subject. All I will say is that trolling and bulling will destroy a forum if allowed for any reason. It's happened to other forums I have been on before and watching a board implode is not pretty.

    That is why I have a great deal of respect for those who moderate and run boards that enforce the politeness rules. Any objections, vents, or issues with individuals or topics should always be taken up with the staff and not the other members. It's up to them to decide if they should stay or go and keeping personal differences in PM's keep them from disrupting the entire board.

  10. #30
    Premium Member Aniseteph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    All I will say is that trolling and bulling will destroy a forum if allowed for any reason. It's happened to other forums I have been on before and watching a board implode is not pretty.

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