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  1. #51
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    Perhaps the use of 'we', was not as it was intended, maybe it was not meant to create a group, but simply to refer to all who perceive an antagonist in their midst.

    This just indicates that how well we know and use a language, certain words and phrases can mean many things, all depending on the receiver of those words and their motives.

    Just to note as is mentioned in another thread, the United Nations definition of tolerance is different from a dictionary's definition, and you can bet your bottom dollar, wherever you go to seek a definition, there will always be many definitions of that word or phrase. You take on board a, definition, and another takes on board an other definition, then no one is wrong, though it would seem to be by another, so this all showing definitions of anything cannot be trusted.

    Tolerance to me, is what I define based upon my feelings not another's thoughts.

    Lets not start another war, no one here needs it.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    Perhaps the use of 'we', was not as it was intended, maybe it was not meant to create a group, but simply to refer to all who perceive an antagonist in their midst.

    This just indicates that how well we know and use a language, certain words and phrases can mean many things, all depending on the receiver of those words and their motives.
    I disagree. The use of "we" by Kharmine, which she does all the time and all you have to do is look at her other posts, is like Kayshier said, to imply that there is an "other" or a "them". I am not talking about this thread only, here is an example from the 'Arab Face' thread and Caroline's response to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi View Post
    who is 'we' look at the language you choose. You are also a journalist so use of language should be very high on your agenda.
    I appreciate you trying to find an excuse for her, but this is not making the situation any better. The fact is that members are being 'othered' here because their argument doesn't match the dominant view.

  3. #53
    Member summerdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    Thanks for the "out" - ooooh a history of drama and trouble eh? Hmm let's see ... oh yes I did write a very ill-advised and badly written thread but immediately saw my error and apologised profusely. Anything else?

    I had no interest in outting you or causing any trouble for anyone. I did NOT like what you said about Awasef and spoke up. I was/am making the point that anyone can be made to appear suspicious. Your whole case against Awasef was based on conjecture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    As to flouncing off, the only thing I can imagine you are referring to there is the fact that in September of last year I suffered a nervous breakdown due to various personal issues in my life coupled with health issues. I couldn't work for a few months and my family very nearly broke up under the pressure. So posting to Bhuz or anywhere else was the last thing on my mind. Frankly I could have done with the support of the Bhuzzers but I didn't want to bring them down with moany, negative posts. My mind wasn't in the right place for "conversation" with anyone. One or two did keep in touch with me via email, and I'm very glad they did.
    I'm really sorry you had such a rough time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post

    I think the closest I've ever been to a "flounce" is right now. But guess that's what you want huh?

    No, I honestly don't want you to go. I want you to stay and give everyone here a chance. We're not bad people. I spoke up when I saw everyone ganging up on Awasef because she's new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    I'm glad I'm a new member because that means I'm not emotionally invested in this board or any of its members. This must be really awful for those who are, and I feel for them, and for the long-time member who left the forum as a result of that recent spat.


    It feels really strange to be talking to a cat.
    The cat? His name is Zaki.

  4. #54
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsy8522 View Post
    I disagree. The use of "we" by Kharmine, which she does all the time and all you have to do is look at her other posts, is like Kayshier said, to imply that there is an "other" or a "them". I am not talking about this thread only, here is an example from the 'Arab Face' thread and Caroline's response to her.





    I appreciate you trying to find an excuse for her, but this is not making the situation any better. The fact is that members are being 'othered' here because their argument doesn't match the dominant view.

    I don't look at people's past, I judge their words based on the present as everyone has a past, and that past might include things we are not proud of, little pecadillos we might have made when influenced by external forces or just plain errors of judgement. We are all continuously learning, everything that comes before us modifies our thought, we are a product of our enviroment, but it is for us to not let our past, the past and our enviroment from influencing us and others to how we are in the present, how us, we truly feel.

    So, you say other people's inputs are not making the situation any better, so I have a question to ask you ;

    What would make the situation resolved, what do you want to put an end to this war ?

    Remember though, the past is the past.
    Last edited by khanjar; 05-01-2009 at 03:05 PM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanjar View Post
    So, you say other people's inputs are not making the situation any better, so I have a question to ask you ;

    What would make the situation resolved, what do you want to put an end to this war ?

    Remember though, the past is the past.
    Forgiveness?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsy8522 View Post
    Oh, so you're suffering from mental issues now? Well, that is your problem and no one else's.

    .
    What a cruel thing to say...


  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    What a cruel thing to say...

    It couldn't be more cruel than what you said about Aisha

  8. #58
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    I want to ask a few questions in the hopes that they are answered...as well as a few comments i have for this post. When I first read it, I wasn't sure what to make of it, and I'm still not totally sure


    Quote Originally Posted by Kharmine View Post
    There have been some very wise words said here. I especially agre with what Rheen.Boom has said about more tolerance and love being needed.

    I brought up the "troll" point because it seemed that a very few people were using the board to regularly engage in more than lively, even heated debate. Yes, most of us can "get into it," and then there will be the odd snide remark or mild jab in some people's direction.

    That's to be expected. That's why we have moderators and forum rules. And if everyone respected both, IMHO, we'd have fewer problems.

    But a very few people seem less interested in finding common ground to enjoy regarding Oriental dance and its cultural contexts and more focused on jumping aggressively on any post or thread they don't like the tone of.

    I don't think it is that simple. Your are making it sound as though, people deliberately look for threads and posts to make a big deal out of. Wouldn't you object to something if you saw it as offensive to you?


    If something can be viewed in the worst possible interpretation, that's the one they seem to go for immediately, rather than try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, ask questions in a neutral tone, and try to see if there is anything else going on.

    I could understand giving the benefit of the doubt , but there comes a time when that could be really exhausting, especially when there seems to be the constant attempt at derision, condescending repsonses, patronizing attitudes, lack of sensitivity etc..this may not necessarily be by the same posters, but when there seems to be a general tendency toward this...it can cause someone to just snap.

    If people do try to reach out to some of these folks who insist they have been wronged in some way -- that hand gets slapped away. And for some of these chronically offended souls, no amount of explanation, apology or attempt to reason or reach better understanding seems to be enough.

    Define reaching out in the context of what recenlty happened?
    Reaching out to me would begin with an apology.

    Reaching out to me does not mean making funny remarks directed at a particular person in the hopes that they would 'lighten up'...not many people are responsive to such things.

    Reaching out does not include name calling, refering to things that have nothing to do with the topic,
    and it does not include an attidude of "well we just don't get why you are so upset? i mean all i am doing is trying to be open and frank and honest? why don't you get it? it implies that the aggrieved person is the one with the problem..nothing is wrong with what you did but that's their problem...that's not reaching out..that's shadowing the slapping hand that is being accused of hitting back at attempts of reconcilation


    They don't seem to believe in agree-to-disagree, in finding common ground, in giving the benefit of the doubt, or even in taking personal grievances offline so airing them doesn't drag others into it. If Salome addresses their issues privately, they've been known to take it public, directly or indirectly.

    Funny, wasn't the person you previously accused of doing this no longer an active poster in this forum?

    When things do manage to simmer down, there always seem to be the same people who keep trying to fan any sparks into a new flame war. A post or even a new thread seems to be designed just to keep the general heartburn going.

    Yes this is true. Sometimes, we often need to take a look at ourselves in the mirror of self examination and see if we are indeed guilty of doing this.


    Their motives are always supposed to be pure or justified, but others' are always suspect and can't be interpreted in any positive way.

    again see previous comment

    They say it's always someone else's fault that things don't get better; they're always the victims, and their aggression is always justified. They'll try to drive wedges between their friends and anyone they regard as enemies.

    I haven't seen anything like this on here. I could honestly be blind to it, if it does in fact happen I don't know

    It's not all members of a particular cultural/ethnic group, either -- although at least member of that group wants to make that issue the driving wedge between Arabs/Muslims and those of other ethnic and religious groups on this board. It's a false issue, and I hope intelligent people of all backgrounds don't fall for it.

    Your observations have me curious..care to further explain?


    This person and I have some history between us -- she has ignored any attempts at making peace -- and she has done her darndest to draw other Arabs/Muslims into her personal conflict, even when I don't know them and have had no dealings with them.

    i think this is getting personal..didn't you previously suggest that personal issues should be kept private?

    I did make a reference once in a heated moment to some people behaving like the Taliban -- only after a good person and longtime forum participant was accused of being "Klan" and racist. If the moderator deleted that comment as well as the Klan comments, well and good.


    so..tit for tat then? Reaching out? *remembers someone saying something about a schoolyard fight when one feels an argument is being lost*


    We had one longtime participant who cracked down on any challenge to her opinion with a heavy hand and maybe that gave the impression that she "held the forum together" -- but that's giving her credit she is not due (ask the other people who felt driven out by her rudeness).


    Let's remember that is is Salome, who created this web site, pays for it, and tries to keep it a place we can all enjoy. She is like the hostess of a party; she deserves respect even when we disagree with her decisions.

    New people come onto the forum, or past participants rejoin, and they don't have any idea of what's been going on -- all they know is that people they've learned to like are being attacked or saying they're offended.

    Naturally, they tend to "side" with their new/old friends and see others they're not as familiar with as being just mean and unreasonable. A few of these folks may even join in with the belittling, challenging and denigration of people they don't know from God's elbow.

    how do you know they tend to side? You seem to be speaking from some position of authority, like an arm chair critic, examining all that you survey and opining on it as you see it.....hmmmm please correct me if i am misguided in my interpretation


    The people who keep these flame wars simmering may not be anonymous, but their intent seems to be the same as trolls -- to keep turning up the flame under any possible pot until it boils over.

    What is then the recourse? Do we just put up with them, ignore their posts and look away when people are actually being bullied? When we stumble -- justly or not in their eyes -- do we try to offer better understanding, even when continually slapped in the face for our efforts?

    you need to define better understanding? clearly what might be better understanding for some may not be so for others and miscommunication happens


    I -- and many others, I'm sure -- would like to know. Because although these people are regulars and not quite anonymous, and don't confine themselves to throwing a grenade and running, they are otherwise doing exactly what trolls do.
    I'm not sure exactly how to take the spirit of this post...parts of it seem in good will, parts seem very accusatory,parts seem even ironic...at least to me.
    Last edited by kayshier; 05-01-2009 at 03:57 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayshier View Post

    They say it's always someone else's fault that things don't get better; they're always the victims, and their aggression is always justified. They'll try to drive wedges between their friends and anyone they regard as enemies.

    I haven't seen anything like this on here. I could honestly be blind to it, if it does in fact happen I don't know

    Your response struck a note here Kayshier. Because this was exactly what I was feeling in regards to the perceived bigotry on the thread. I just did not see it. And I'm not alone in that.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharis View Post
    Your response struck a note here Kayshier. Because this was exactly what I was feeling in regards to the perceived bigotry on the thread. I just did not see it. And I'm not alone in that.
    hmmm..interesting. Point well noted Kharis.

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