When is a troll not a troll?

gypsy8522

New member
so called trolls dip in with a wooden spoon then duck out again.

I dont like to see this forum get slammed because it has been the most educational forum for me personally.

Bhuz is different, but that too has many threads which go something like

'bla bla bla ...RANT!!!! :mad::mad::mad:'

So I guess most forums have threads which are about letting off steam and having a gripe, moan or winge about something.

The difference is with this forum, is we have people who do speak arabic and do engage in very valuable and much needed discussions about an art form that comes from the Middle East.

It saddens me that this in itself seems to annoy people at times.

If the the ME people of this forum left tomorrow this would be a forum with a big almighty hole because it would be lacking input that some people never get and are unlikely to ever get.

It is an international forum which communicates in English language.
The 'English' are a small group of people who make up just one part of a tiny island... so what does that tell us about history?

Let people set up threads in any language they want and hope they still manage to be bothered to share their thoughts in English with everyone regardless of what it is they have to say.

This is an international forum so we might want to remember that when we express ourselves, regardless of who is wrong or right.

This forum is smacking of domination and alienation.

The language used and the terms which they are expressed have been unwisely chosen.

I think that in many ways A'isha kept this forum together as it seems to have decended into utter chaos and a free for all saloon fight since she left...

now what the hell is that all about?? :think:

I am off to Cairo now and I hope it has all calmed down by the time I get back and we have not had any more casualties. :rolleyes:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

THANK YOU, Caroline! Enjoy and have a safe trip.
 

Reen.Blom

New member
Reen I understand what you are saying, but if someone wants to vent frustruation...espeically a member of this forum, there is the you tube thread they can look at..lots of ways to vent frustration there by just laughing or smiling or being in awe of some of the videos :)

Unforunatly, so often, we cant even begin to fathom to depth of pain and grief some people go through.... :( So being a little more tolerant and kind can go a looooong way......:pray::pray::pray:
 

Kharis

New member
I think we are all too quick to label... Give each person a benefit of doubt! Why we think we KNOW all the meanings? Same words might mean something else on the other side of the world!

If in UK youtel a girl she is sexy its a compliment, back at home it means she's a slut.

Come on people, be a little more patient. After all you might not know what a person is going through in 'real' life. Maybe its a way to vent frustrations, or voice smth they have to be quiet about otherwise.

It is better to be a little more careful, we all have too much stress outside the forum.

Not so quick to judge!


HUGS,
reen.blom

Wise words. But I do believe also that just because we may be suffering in our personal lives, does not give us the right to be horrible to others.
 

gypsy8522

New member
Now that Salome has stepped in, I want to say that calling another member a troll just because they disagree with you is unacceptable. This thread is unacceptable.

Awasef has identified herself in the Arabic thread which she started, and I can assure you that she is not a troll. The discussion in that thread was related to dance at some point, and even if it wasn't, it's in the off topic.

Kharmine, you referring to Awasef, Summerdancer and other Arabic members on this board as "the Taliban" is demeaning and disgusting.

It is quite obvious that you'd love it if Awasef left, you would like it if ALL the Arab members on this forum left. You were rejoicing when Aisha left and you couldn't help not bash and attack her, because you cannot stand anyone that contributes with informative posts that do not agree with your own agenda, hence your unsuccessful attempts in the past to drive us, the Arab members, out with your snide, jabbing comments. But we survived, despite it all.

I am writing this in behalf of all Arab members on this forum, who told me to tell you that this is not going to happen anytime soon. They will not leave the forum, in fact, more Arab members will be joining the forum in the future. Deal with it!
 

Kharmine

New member
There have been some very wise words said here. I especially agre with what Rheen.Boom has said about more tolerance and love being needed.

I brought up the "troll" point because it seemed that a very few people were using the board to regularly engage in more than lively, even heated debate. Yes, most of us can "get into it," and then there will be the odd snide remark or mild jab in some people's direction.

That's to be expected. That's why we have moderators and forum rules. And if everyone respected both, IMHO, we'd have fewer problems.

But a very few people seem less interested in finding common ground to enjoy regarding Oriental dance and its cultural contexts and more focused on jumping aggressively on any post or thread they don't like the tone of.

If something can be viewed in the worst possible interpretation, that's the one they seem to go for immediately, rather than try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, ask questions in a neutral tone, and try to see if there is anything else going on.

If people do try to reach out to some of these folks who insist they have been wronged in some way -- that hand gets slapped away. And for some of these chronically offended souls, no amount of explanation, apology or attempt to reason or reach better understanding seems to be enough.

They don't seem to believe in agree-to-disagree, in finding common ground, in giving the benefit of the doubt, or even in taking personal grievances offline so airing them doesn't drag others into it. If Salome addresses their issues privately, they've been known to take it public, directly or indirectly.

When things do manage to simmer down, there always seem to be the same people who keep trying to fan any sparks into a new flame war. A post or even a new thread seems to be designed just to keep the general heartburn going.

Their motives are always supposed to be pure or justified, but others' are always suspect and can't be interpreted in any positive way.

They say it's always someone else's fault that things don't get better; they're always the victims, and their aggression is always justified. They'll try to drive wedges between their friends and anyone they regard as enemies.

It's not all members of a particular cultural/ethnic group, either -- although at least member of that group wants to make that issue the driving wedge between Arabs/Muslims and those of other ethnic and religious groups on this board. It's a false issue, and I hope intelligent people of all backgrounds don't fall for it.

This person and I have some history between us -- she has ignored any attempts at making peace -- and she has done her darndest to draw other Arabs/Muslims into her personal conflict, even when I don't know them and have had no dealings with them.

I did make a reference once in a heated moment to some people behaving like the Taliban -- only after a good person and longtime forum participant was accused of being "Klan" and racist. If the moderator deleted that comment as well as the Klan comments, well and good.

We had one longtime participant who cracked down on any challenge to her opinion with a heavy hand and maybe that gave the impression that she "held the forum together" -- but that's giving her credit she is not due (ask the other people who felt driven out by her rudeness).

Let's remember that is is Salome, who created this web site, pays for it, and tries to keep it a place we can all enjoy. She is like the hostess of a party; she deserves respect even when we disagree with her decisions.

New people come onto the forum, or past participants rejoin, and they don't have any idea of what's been going on -- all they know is that people they've learned to like are being attacked or saying they're offended.

Naturally, they tend to "side" with their new/old friends and see others they're not as familiar with as being just mean and unreasonable. A few of these folks may even join in with the belittling, challenging and denigration of people they don't know from God's elbow.

The people who keep these flame wars simmering may not be anonymous, but their intent seems to be the same as trolls -- to keep turning up the flame under any possible pot until it boils over.

What is then the recourse? Do we just put up with them, ignore their posts and look away when people are actually being bullied? When we stumble -- justly or not in their eyes -- do we try to offer better understanding, even when continually slapped in the face for our efforts?

I -- and many others, I'm sure -- would like to know. Because although these people are regulars and not quite anonymous, and don't confine themselves to throwing a grenade and running, they are otherwise doing exactly what trolls do.
 
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summerdance

New member
But a very few people seem less interested in finding common ground to enjoy regarding Oriental dance and its cultural contexts and more focused on jumping aggressively on any post or thread they don't like the tone of.

If something can be viewed in the worst possible interpretation, that's the one they seem to go for immediately, rather than try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, ask questions in a neutral tone, and try to see if there is anything else going on.


I ask you. How many times can we keep giving the benefit of the doubt? There are offenders here with very clear agendas. Believe it or not, the Arab hatred reads quite clearly. How long can we keep turning the other cheek? Why do we always have to guess at your intentions? In this forum, all we can go on is your words. When you repeatedly bash us, even subtly, we will speak out.

If people do try to reach out to some of these folks who insist they have been wronged in some way -- that hand gets slapped away. And for some of these chronically offended souls, no amount of explanation, apology or attempt to reason or reach better understanding seems to be enough.

They don't seem to believe in agree-to-disagree, in finding common ground, in giving the benefit of the doubt, or even in taking personal grievances offline so airing them doesn't drag others into it. If Salome addresses their issues privately, they've been known to take it public, directly or indirectly.

I don't think anyone here refuses to have differences of opinion. That's what makes this place informative and stimulating.

BTW, an apology would squashed all the anger/frustration/offense of the Arab/Muslim thread.

When things do manage to simmer down, there always seem to be the same people who keep trying to fan any sparks into a new flame war. A post or even a new thread seems to be designed just to keep the general heartburn going.

Their motives are always supposed to be pure or justified, but others' are always suspect and can't be interpreted in any positive way.

They say it's always someone else's fault that things don't get better; they're always the victims, and their aggression is always justified. They'll try to drive wedges between their friends and anyone they regard as enemies.


This is not High School. We are all free-thinking adults. Assuming that we are standing around siding with our friends is insulting. I have agreed and disagreed with just about everyone here at some point.


Let's remember that is is Salome, who created this web site, pays for it, and tries to keep it a place we can all enjoy. She is like the hostess of a party; she deserves respect even when we disagree with her decisions.

New people come onto the forum, or past participants rejoin, and they don't have any idea of what's been going on -- all they know is that people they've learned to like are being attacked or saying they're offended.

Naturally, they tend to "side" with their new/old friends and see others they're not as familiar with as being just mean and unreasonable. A few of these folks may even join in with the belittling, challenging and denigration of people they don't know from God's elbow.

We do respect Salome. Many people went to her to report the offensive thread. We are all here because this place is important to us.

The people who keep these flame wars simmering may not be anonymous, but their intent seems to be the same as trolls -- to keep turning up the flame under any possible pot until it boils over.

What is then the recourse? Do we just put up with them, ignore their posts and look away when people are actually being bullied? When we stumble -- justly or not in their eyes -- do we try to offer better understanding, even when continually slapped in the face for our efforts?

I -- and many others, I'm sure -- would like to know. Because although these people are regulars and not quite anonymous, and don't confine themselves to throwing a grenade and running, they are otherwise doing exactly what trolls do.

I wish you'd at least have the courage to call out whomever you feel is trolling. Just like you should have the courage to call us Arabs Taliban to our face; rather than hidden in innuendo.
 

gypsy8522

New member
Kharmine,

No amount of going back and editing as you regularly do for uhm "clarity" is going to make anything you said more excusable or palatable. As I mentioned in my last post, this is not a one member issue, but ALL the Arab and Muslim members on this forum have taken this stand.
 

gypsy8522

New member
I wish you'd at least have the courage to call out whomever you feel is trolling. Just like you should have the courage to call us Arabs Taliban to our face; rather than hidden in innuendo.

Summer, I think we should just drop it at this point. I really hope Salome is reading this.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
"An Internet troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion".

A troll is a troll is a troll and it doesn't require someone to drop a bomb and walk off to qualify. Some of the biggest trolls I have met online stay around as long as they can (until banned) just to keep stirring the pot.

It qualifies as troll behavior if a message is posted for the purpose of ticking people off or to disrupt the topic. Leave or stay it is still trolling.

I have nothing to say on the personal discussions on the subject. All I will say is that trolling and bulling will destroy a forum if allowed for any reason. It's happened to other forums I have been on before and watching a board implode is not pretty.

That is why I have a great deal of respect for those who moderate and run boards that enforce the politeness rules. Any objections, vents, or issues with individuals or topics should always be taken up with the staff and not the other members. It's up to them to decide if they should stay or go and keeping personal differences in PM's keep them from disrupting the entire board.
 

Kharmine

New member
...That is why I have a great deal of respect for those who moderate and run boards that enforce the politeness rules. Any objections, vents, or issues with individuals or topics should always be taken up with the staff and not the other members. It's up to them to decide if they should stay or go and keeping personal differences in PM's keep them from disrupting the entire board.

Agreed. I know there have been some moderators here who feel overwhelmed and intimidated to the point that even they are backing off on making posts they're afraid will get them attacked.

That won't help when someone needs to step in and tell everyone to go to their corners and cool off before making any more posts.
 
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nightdancer

New member
he difference is with this forum, is we have people who do speak arabic and do engage in very valuable and much needed discussions about an art form that comes from the Middle East.

The problem with that is that many of us cant read it, and we are the ones that would benefit most from that "valuable and much needed" discourse.

I think that in many ways A'isha kept this forum together as it seems to have decended into utter chaos and a free for all saloon fight since she left...

Despite the fact that she was one of the largest of the snark pot stirrers. She is also the only person that I have on ignore. The downside of all of that, is that she is one of the ones I learned the most from. But I cant sift through all the sand for the diamond.

The 'English' are a small group of people who make up just one part of a tiny island... so what does that tell us about history?

That is totally irrelevant to the situation. Furthermore, this forum is on an American server, run by and paid for by an American woman. The programming is English, the majority of the speakers are either first or second language English. It is not too far of a stretch to understand why most threads are in English. Were this homed in Egypt, run by a French-speaking citizen, this idea would be totally out of line. But it's not. While I respect the concept of multiculturalism, at some point, someone has to say that just because its English doesnt make it bad.

I know there have been some moderators here who feel overwhelmed and intimidated to the point that even they are backing off on making posts they're afraid will get them attacked.

Yeah, I'm one of them. I dont know whether to be more assertive, more gentle, what. I am a patient person, but I am not passive. Also, this is the first forum I have ever moderated where the rules are lax. Now, do not mistake this for criticism. Salome operates on the concepts of free speech and that we are all adults and can handle ourselves as such. But as that's not happening, it makes for internal questions of how to handle someone. That being said, I usually just hope that someone will burn themselves out and go away.

But I was led to believe that trolls were, like sock puppets, anonymous posters

Can you explain what you mean a little more? People that come in, mass post, then leave? I jsut want to be sure that I understand what you mean? Some of the best trolls I know are the ones that ensure vested interest in a forum. They are there to troll and watch, not troll and leave.


You can't call it a troll because someone is not agreeing with you and answering in a snide way.

Agreed. As previously stated, I know some really really good trolls. The best of the best do it without a harsh word, without ever becoming rude, crude or socially unacceptable. They do it in such a way that they get you all spun up, but they themselves never become so.

...lots of ways to vent frustration there by just laughing or smiling or being in awe of some of the videos

lol that actually works for me. Thats what I was headed in here to do, actually.
 

Kashmir

New member
A troll antagonises and then steps back to await the explosion. There's a difference between this and standing up for yourself by biting back. One thing I cannot stand, be it on boards or in face to face interaction is bullying. I find it unacceptable.
Yes, I don't think you can label someone a "troll" just because they disagree with you and won't roll over. I believe a troll is also not a "real" person (as real as any of us are on the net) - ie anonymous or pretending to be someone else.
 

Freddie

New member
Hello there. I'm still fairly new here and given the nature of some of the posts recently on this board I'm a little nervous about what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway. If you decide that this is a little too "out there" and frank, I'm happy to go away. I see that unpleasant thread has already seen off one valued member of the forum.

So, I have always understood a troll to be an anonymous user of a forum, who's sole aim is to cause trouble.

A couple of people on that now-locked really nasty thread made the hairs on my neck stand on end. The one that really got to me was Awasef. So I looked a little further.


  • Awasef is new here (as am I, but I am open about who I am)
  • The vast majority of posts made by Awasef are sarcastic, snide, or inflammatory. I saw no positive or constructive posts.
  • What little she or he has written on her biog is in Arabic script, so I can't tell who this person is and if I didn't know from the posts that Awasef's English is bang-on perfect, it would certainly discourage me from communicating with him/her based on that.
  • Awasef's avatar is a bolt of lightning.
  • I looked up what Awasef means - "Storms" apparently.

Sure looks like a troll to me. Prove me wrong, Awasef.

Goodnight all.
 

gypsy8522

New member
Hello there. I'm still fairly new here and given the nature of some of the posts recently on this board I'm a little nervous about what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway. If you decide that this is a little too "out there" and frank, I'm happy to go away. I see that unpleasant thread has already seen off one valued member of the forum.

So, I have always understood a troll to be an anonymous user of a forum, who's sole aim is to cause trouble.

A couple of people on that now-locked really nasty thread made the hairs on my neck stand on end. The one that really got to me was Awasef. So I looked a little further.


  • Awasef is new here (as am I, but I am open about who I am)

    Exactly. Both of you are new here.

  • The vast majority of posts made by Awasef are sarcastic, snide, or inflammatory. I saw no positive or constructive posts.

    The vast majority of Awasef's posts in the "other" thread (she posted mostly in two) were pleasant and positive, just ask the other members. As for the Arab/Muslim thread, it is no surprise that her posts were sarcastic and snide- so were everyone else's!

  • What little she or he has written on her biog is in Arabic script, so I can't tell who this person is and if I didn't know from the posts that Awasef's English is bang-on perfect, it would certainly discourage me from communicating with him/her based on that.

    That would be a choice you are making. I'm sure if you tried approaching her in a good way she won't reject you. Summerdancer and I were also suspicious of Awasef when she first joined, but it turns out she's okay.

  • Awasef's avatar is a bolt of lightning.

    So? I have seen more hilarious avatars on here.

  • I looked up what Awasef means - "Storms" apparently.

    I have also seen the strangest names.

Sure looks like a troll to me.

Oh, that is proof right there! ;)

Prove me wrong, Awasef.

Awasef doesn't need to prove anything to you, you only joined the forum recently. I think calling other members trolls is more annoying than trolls. Again, it is unacceptable.
 

summerdance

New member
Hello there. I'm still fairly new here and given the nature of some of the posts recently on this board I'm a little nervous about what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway. If you decide that this is a little too "out there" and frank, I'm happy to go away. I see that unpleasant thread has already seen off one valued member of the forum.

You know, I wasn't going to 'out' you here, but this post really got to me. All I will say is you have a history of drama and trouble on bhuz. As a matter of fact, you pretty much flounced off some months ago, due to some personal 'issues.' Prove me wrong,if I'm lying.

Awasef is a new member and has been funny and constructive in the thread we participated in together. She only snarked in the now locked thread. We're all guilty of snark in that thread. Are we all trolls?
 

Kharmine

New member
...Agreed. As previously stated, I know some really really good trolls. The best of the best do it without a harsh word, without ever becoming rude, crude or socially unacceptable. They do it in such a way that they get you all spun up, but they themselves never become so.
...

I find that intriguing! Good trolls? Who'da thunk it?

So there seems to be some consensus. We all agree that a troll is not simply a person who is disagreeable or disagrees with anyone in particular. Actually that was never even questionable, but it's good to emphasize.

And I'm not into actually trying to "out" a specific person as a troll just because he or she can be a disagreeable. That's just not good, nor necessary.

What I wanted to find out was whether we considered Salome's definition of troll (I'm assuming it's hers or maybe she borrowed it) to fit this kind of behavior when it applied to regular participants:

"An Internet troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion".

It appears the above may, indeed, meet our definition of trollish behavior, but most of us we feel that a troll is not a regular, has no real identity on this forum, and specializes in lobbing the occasional grenade.

OK, good to get that straight!

BTW, the rules for posting on OrientalDancer.net., can be found right next door on this topic forum. Whenever I see a little steam rising out of the ears of my friends, I'm gonna run over there and review. Just in case I feel the impulse to do something, um, impulsive!
 

nightdancer

New member
LOL okay, how about "smooth" trolls. I know some really smooooooth trolls. (Robynne has a variety of interesting friends in weird places. ;) )
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
I believe a troll is also not a "real" person (as real as any of us are on the net) - ie anonymous or pretending to be someone else.
It appears the above may, indeed, meet our definition of trollish behavior, but most of us we feel that a troll is not a regular, has no real identity on this forum, and specializes in lobbing the occasional grenade.

OK, good to get that straight!

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. I am not saying that many trolls aren't anonymous but that in my experienced the more volatile Trolls tend to actually be well established on a board. Sometimes their long tenure is used by them to protect them from being forced to own up to their behavior. In one case I know of however they were banned so frequently their name made it into the rules... Hardly faceless is it? Another board I was on did not enforce moderation of "trollish" behavior at all because "they were all adults" and if someone didn't like it was their own fault because "they couldn't handle the heat" and they should "just not read it if they are going to be bothered by it." Over time the board was taken over by regular members who were most defiantly trolls when it came to any topic they didn't approve of and a large number of us simply left.

The question isn't whether they are anonymous vs identifiable but whether they deliberately use inflammatory tactics ("with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response") to derail thread topics or just to get people riled up whenever they feel like it for whatever reason.


Yeah, I'm one of them.
I am sorry. That's a rough position to be in.
 
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