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  1. #11
    V.I.P. Caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    'challengeing' as a word is perhaps percieved as confrontational or aggressive.

    I really dont mean it like this, I was meaning 'feel able to say when you feel you have been given incorrect in or not sure about something'.

    How comfortable do people feel in class to do this?

    It is just a general question really.

    I would like to feel that I provide the opportunity for people to question and offer info. I was wondering if people generally feel able to do this and if so how? if not why?

  2. #12
    V.I.P. khanjar's Avatar
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    It is my belief no one knows everything, and everything we do is another step on the ladder of learning. If such a time came that one felt they knew it all, then for them learning has ceased, they have closed their mind to new possibilities and they will progress no further. Each and everyone of us that come to a thing, be it raks or table tennis, we always bring something new, an insight, experience or whatever, for those others who wish to learn and be learned from.

    But if the feeling is felt that one feels compelled to correct a teacher, by all means do so, your input might be useful or previously unthought of, maybe even that answer another was in search of, but as good manners and respect dictate, choose a time comfortable to both, that being in private, out of the hearing of any other. Just to think, you yourself might even have got it wrong.

    We are all teachers in the school of life.

  3. #13
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    and we are all students.
    Those are the teachers I don't understand...the ones who stop learning.

  4. #14
    Senior Member maria_harlequin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanazel View Post

    There is a certain kind of person who delights in challenging every other word out of a teacher's mouth. They aren't in class to learn but to indulge their egos. I don't get them very often, and they are more likely to be in creative writing classes than dance classes, but they make me tired and I generally end up asking them flat out why they bothered to take the class.
    Ahhhhh...those types. I went to high school with a guy like that. He wasn't very pleasant.

  5. #15
    Moderator Shanazel's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think they simply are not secure in their place on the food chain and need to constantly be on the defensive.

  6. #16
    Junior Member pinkcoinbelt's Avatar
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    Default about challenge + a rant

    Hi! I hope this one won't stray too far from the thread.

    I would usually ask my then teacher after the class about a certain movement or gesture that I couldn't understand. One time after a class, I asked her about why she wouldn't let us (or me, because I was the only one doing it) bend the wrists and so your fingers go upwards instead. She corrected my wrists from time to time. When I asked her, she said that it was an American Oriental thing and not Egyptian (she teaches Egyptian style with the relaxed, almost straight wrists). I found the explanation acceptable because I could only remember seeing the wrist thing on Ansuya and Anaheed (both are American Oriental dancers and in Ansuya's "Lavish Layers", she specifically shows the posture like, "bend your elbows, drop the wrists and lift the fingers").

    That being said, I really, really hate open conflicts and I've been going back and forth thinking whether or not I should post this, but... here I go. Again, I hope I won't stray too far from the original thread.

    A few months ago while I was still learning from her, we learned a very neat choreography to Alf Leila Wa Leila (sp?). It was for the early year hafla. I was enjoying it so much until my friend told me that our teacher was teaching the exact same choreography that Jillina taught in her Instructional Belly Dance vol. 1 DVD.

    I didn't believe my friend at first, but she showed me the video and yes. It was 98% the same, with 2% of the moves changed into something easier. I stopped learning from that teacher both because I caught a terrible flu and lost interest in learning from her.

    And then came the hafla. My friend performed in a group dance (the Alf Leila Wa Leila / Jillina choreography) and the teacher had a solo performance.

    A couple of weeks after the hafla, somebody posted the videos of the hafla on her facebook page, including the teacher's solo performance. I saw it and I told my friend that it was neat although she looked exhausted in it.

    To my surprise, my friend showed me the performance video of Jillina's Instructional Belly Dance vol. 2 and my lower jaw fell open. The teacher was dancing to Jillina's Warda choreography. I played the facebook video and Jillina's video and the movements were again 98% the same, beat by beat, step by step. 2% of the movements were changed into easier ones.

    My question is, can a dancer do that? I mean, she's a teacher. Would it be okay if she had credited Jillina by saying that the choreography was done by Jillina and that this was her interpretation of it? My friend told me that the teacher didn't say anything about it being Jillina's.

    I mean, yeah... How many movements are there in belly dance? Of course we are bound to repeat the movements. I must have watched the BDSS Live in Paris DVD for hundreds of times (I'm not kidding - I do believe it has its merits and is also a very good eye candy, like Chicago. One can learn so much about stage presence and dance positions and blockings) and whenever I play Paul Dinletir's "Entrance of the Stars", I could see myself imitating many dance movements. But I don't think I want to teach that to my students (possibly in the next 50 years or so because I'm such a slow learner and an impatient teacher).

    One more thing. Male bellydancers are rare in my city / country (Jakarta, Indonesia) and while I see my dance sisters start to get amateur gigs, the organisers always refuse male dancers. And so, one time, that teacher put up the announcement that she was assembling a student troupe. She already has a professional troupe and she wanted her students to gain more experience in performing. I must've been quite good (or a novelty) because she kept telling me to join. So I signed up.

    On the first student troupe meeting, she informed us that there was going to be a contract for us to sign. One of the clauses in the contract stated that we could not perform individually, and if we did perform individually, we had to ask for her permission and then put the name of the troupe after our name, example: Yuska from the XYZ Belly Dance Student Troupe.

    I had thought that I was going to get more stage experience by joining the student troupe, but clearly, that was going to limit my chance of performing. Even the professional troupe didn't get many gigs. And it was not like I only went to that teacher to learn belly dance.

    Thank goodness that on that meeting, she said that the contract was not done yet. It was the last time I met her. Again, I don't like conflifts so I just backed away.

    So, I don't know. I guess challenging a teacher depends on the student (and how well you know the teacher, like Caroline said) and it's best to do it after the class (like Moon said).

    Thank you for reading my rant and sorry if I kind of took over the thread by posting something that's not really relevant. I appreciate your thoughts.


    Cheers,

    Yuska

  7. #17
    V.I.P. shiradotnet's Avatar
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    I wouldn't hesitate to challenge a teacher who I felt was doing something unethical, such as pirating a commercial video or claiming that something was her own choreography when I knew it wasn't.

    On historical and cultural matters, I think students should tread carefully. There are many conflicting sources of information out there, and it takes a lot of time and effort to figure out which ones are credible. I think it's okay for a student to say she's read something conflicting, but she should try to word it respectfully. For example, instead of "You're wrong! It says something entirely different in Grandmother's Secrets!" it would be better for the student to say, "That's really interesting. It's different from what I read in Grandmother's Secrets. Can you point me to your source so I can learn from it, too?"

    (And of course, I used Grandmother's Secrets as my example because it's widely read and contains a lot of "information" I find questionable.)

    Of course, if your teacher is the one quoting a source that you know for a fact others (such as me) have stated is questionable, in that case I'd recommend challenging your teacher in private. "I noticed you said your source for this was Grandmother's Secrets. Were you aware that a lot of people find some of its historical information problematic? Let me steer you to a review of it...."

  8. #18
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    Frankly Speak I have ever never think on that
    But I some time yes some time NO

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkcoinbelt View Post
    Hi! I hope this one won't stray too far from the thread.

    I would usually ask my then teacher after the class about a certain movement or gesture that I couldn't understand. One time after a class, I asked her about why she wouldn't let us (or me, because I was the only one doing it) bend the wrists and so your fingers go upwards instead. She corrected my wrists from time to time. When I asked her, she said that it was an American Oriental thing and not Egyptian (she teaches Egyptian style with the relaxed, almost straight wrists). I found the explanation acceptable because I could only remember seeing the wrist thing on Ansuya and Anaheed (both are American Oriental dancers and in Ansuya's "Lavish Layers", she specifically shows the posture like, "bend your elbows, drop the wrists and lift the fingers").

    That being said, I really, really hate open conflicts and I've been going back and forth thinking whether or not I should post this, but... here I go. Again, I hope I won't stray too far from the original thread.

    A few months ago while I was still learning from her, we learned a very neat choreography to Alf Leila Wa Leila (sp?). It was for the early year hafla. I was enjoying it so much until my friend told me that our teacher was teaching the exact same choreography that Jillina taught in her Instructional Belly Dance vol. 1 DVD.

    I didn't believe my friend at first, but she showed me the video and yes. It was 98% the same, with 2% of the moves changed into something easier. I stopped learning from that teacher both because I caught a terrible flu and lost interest in learning from her.

    And then came the hafla. My friend performed in a group dance (the Alf Leila Wa Leila / Jillina choreography) and the teacher had a solo performance.

    A couple of weeks after the hafla, somebody posted the videos of the hafla on her facebook page, including the teacher's solo performance. I saw it and I told my friend that it was neat although she looked exhausted in it.

    To my surprise, my friend showed me the performance video of Jillina's Instructional Belly Dance vol. 2 and my lower jaw fell open. The teacher was dancing to Jillina's Warda choreography. I played the facebook video and Jillina's video and the movements were again 98% the same, beat by beat, step by step. 2% of the movements were changed into easier ones.

    My question is, can a dancer do that? I mean, she's a teacher. Would it be okay if she had credited Jillina by saying that the choreography was done by Jillina and that this was her interpretation of it? My friend told me that the teacher didn't say anything about it being Jillina's.


    I mean, yeah... How many movements are there in belly dance? Of course we are bound to repeat the movements. I must have watched the BDSS Live in Paris DVD for hundreds of times (I'm not kidding - I do believe it has its merits and is also a very good eye candy, like Chicago. One can learn so much about stage presence and dance positions and blockings) and whenever I play Paul Dinletir's "Entrance of the Stars", I could see myself imitating many dance movements. But I don't think I want to teach that to my students (possibly in the next 50 years or so because I'm such a slow learner and an impatient teacher).

    One more thing. Male bellydancers are rare in my city / country (Jakarta, Indonesia) and while I see my dance sisters start to get amateur gigs, the organisers always refuse male dancers. And so, one time, that teacher put up the announcement that she was assembling a student troupe. She already has a professional troupe and she wanted her students to gain more experience in performing. I must've been quite good (or a novelty) because she kept telling me to join. So I signed up.

    On the first student troupe meeting, she informed us that there was going to be a contract for us to sign. One of the clauses in the contract stated that we could not perform individually, and if we did perform individually, we had to ask for her permission and then put the name of the troupe after our name, example: Yuska from the XYZ Belly Dance Student Troupe.

    I had thought that I was going to get more stage experience by joining the student troupe, but clearly, that was going to limit my chance of performing. Even the professional troupe didn't get many gigs. And it was not like I only went to that teacher to learn belly dance.

    Thank goodness that on that meeting, she said that the contract was not done yet. It was the last time I met her. Again, I don't like conflifts so I just backed away.

    So, I don't know. I guess challenging a teacher depends on the student (and how well you know the teacher, like Caroline said) and it's best to do it after the class (like Moon said).

    Thank you for reading my rant and sorry if I kind of took over the thread by posting something that's not really relevant. I appreciate your thoughts.


    Cheers,

    Yuska
    this is clearly unethical, and i would have no problems challenging or even confronting the teacher, privately of course before i decide to leave the class.
    i consider something like that completely dishonest, artistically, intellectually, all sorts of dishonesty.

    for me there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from another dancer...or to even acknowledge that the choreography is from another dancer, but to pass it off as your own creative work? that's a skunk (pardon me for saying so)

  10. #20
    V.I.P. Mya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayshier View Post
    for me there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from another dancer...or to even acknowledge that the choreography is from another dancer, but to pass it off as your own creative work? that's a skunk (pardon me for saying so)
    No need to ask pardon i say - the only people who might have a problem with that comment is those who ...well - are skunky.

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