to challenge or not to challenge?

[Caroline_afifi]

How do people feel about challenging their teachers?

Have you ever done it? if so, what was the situation?

Do you feel it is not your place to challenge and you should remain silent?

What are your general views on challenging?

 

[Mosaic]

I haven't done so (I don't think), I have corrected a historical point, with one teacher and also asked her ( a couple of years ago) what made the style she teaches Egyptian, mainly because I felt what she teaches has some Turkish style. She told me the person who taught her, taught Egyptian style and had spent quite a bit of time in Egypt. I haven't challenged her as I fell that my knowledge is still being honed. Also a couple of years ago I knew even less than now.

My other teacher is a Lebanese lady and her style is definitely a blend of Lebanese and Egyptian. This teacher's Mother is Lebanese and her father was born in Lebanon but his parents were Egyptian. Relatives from both sides were very much into folk dancing and actually performed locally in Lebanon. So I wouldn't challenge her LOL!

If I was sure about something I may ask why about the issue, but don't think I would go so far as to challenge.

How do I feel about challenging, I think if you are very sure about an issue and even have some way of backing up what you have to say, then OK, but I wouldn't do it in front of a whole class, I would speak with the teacher after class or something.

~Mosaic

 

[Shanazel]

At the beginning of any class I teach, be it belly dance or creative writing, I explain that I, like all teachers, teach from my own experience, taste, and preferences. I am not infallable, I am not the last word in style, I do not encompass all available knowledge. The idea behind taking a class is to learn all you can from a teacher, incorporate into your life what you can use, disregard the rest, and go on to your next learning experience.

There is a certain kind of person who delights in challenging every other word out of a teacher's mouth. They aren't in class to learn but to indulge their egos. I don't get them very often, and they are more likely to be in creative writing classes than dance classes, but they make me tired and I generally end up asking them flat out why they bothered to take the class.

Another kind of person approaches in private or politely requests recognition in class in order to offer a different viewpoint. I have no objection to this as it can lead to some very illuminating discussions.

Myself, I don't challenge teachers unless they are obviously the sort of people who delight in fierce discussions (I had plenty of history teachers like this).

 

[Aniseteph]

How do people feel about challenging their teachers?

Have you ever done it? if so, what was the situation?

Do you feel it is not your place to challenge and you should remain silent?

What are your general views on challenging?

I've never had reason to do it, and don't feel it's my place to disrupt the class, embarrass anyone, or generally be a pain in the proverbial. No one's paying for my 2 cents worth and I don't want to come over as a smart ass.

Workshops and regular classes are a bit different. In a workshop I'd let it pass, or maybe ask a question if I was genuinely confused.

In class, if it was a big issue like a gesture that I'd heard elsewhere that you should never do, or some piece of misinformation that I felt strongly about, than I might mention it out of class in an "I heard that this was... what do you think?" way.

 

[da Sage]

How do people feel about challenging their teachers?

Have you ever done it? if so, what was the situation?

Do you feel it is not your place to challenge and you should remain silent?

What are your general views on challenging?

I came late in life to dance classes. Before, I took lots of discussion-based classes, so it was natural to me to discuss movement origination and how movements feel during dance class. I did once tell a teacher that she was powering a certain move from the floor up while demonstrating, instead of from the hip as she was telling us we should. :redface: Now I would know better than to say that sort of thing out loud - dance class etiquette is different from regular classroom etiquette.

I think that the intent makes a major difference. People who have questions/exceptions need to be sure that they can voice their views in a manner that seems respectful to everyone else in the room. If they can't pull that off, they should be quiet.

I had a math teacher who would assign math problems to be done on the board, and encourage us to correct each other with the words "I challenge that!", followed by a (hopefully) more correct breakdown of the problem. After that approach, any more conversational examination of the topic at hand seems much less confrontational in comparison.

 

[Moon]

Have you ever done it? if so, what was the situation?
I have never done it but I had a situation where maybe I should have done it. My teacher said the ladies dancing khaleeghy toss their hair to show their hair, while I A'isha Azar wrote on this forum they do it to mimick the movements of water plants and waves in the sea. I trust A'isha's explanation is the right one because she studied Khaleeghy in depth and didn't just take a few workshops in that style like my teacher did. I didn't "challenge" my teacher though because we didn't devote the entire class to khaleeghy and I guess I didn't really dare to do it at that moment since I haven't been studying dance for so long yet.

Do you feel it is not your place to challenge and you should remain silent?
I think it's maybe better to wait until class finishes and speak about it with the teacher in private than immediately do it in class itself. It's hard though when you haven't been studying the dance for a long time yet. There's many inaccurate information out there and sometimes I don't know who actually does have the accurate information. Remaining silent can leave a bad feeling though. Probably in most cases the teacher doesn't know she has inaccurate information and might appreciate it to be enlightened.

What are your general views on challenging?
It should be possible but as I said, preferably after class in private with the teacher.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I do think this sort of thing is very difficult and there are various ways of doing these things.

If you have a good relationship with your teacher then it is so much easier. People often say to me 'I heard this or that'...

I also offer space for discussion as I feel tthis is a very important part of the lesson.

There is often no wasy answer to this and each situation is unique.

I have geard of some teachers being a bit nasty to students who dare question them and I think this is very sad.
I dont think this is what teaching is about at all.

I used to ask questions when I was a student and generally I had a very positive experience.

The only time I didnt was in a Leila Haddad workshop at majma (many moons ago).

I get on really well with Leila but she does not remember me as a student or biting my head off.:lol:

 

[lizaj]

Belly dance teachers shouldn't be any different to any teacher. You never mind a student asking a question, challenging what might be a common held belief BUT it is all about the way it's done. You had no love for the kid who bawls out.."That's not right,miss" but you did for the one who said "I heard that.........., miss what do you reckon?"
Many time..I've loved saying.."Let's find out..few things are rarely black and white"
and wow betide either the teacher or student who tries to make a fool of their opposite.

 

[kayshier]

How do people feel about challenging their teachers?

Have you ever done it? if so, what was the situation?

Do you feel it is not your place to challenge and you should remain silent?

What are your general views on challenging?

it depends on how you challenge.
i guess it is a matter of diplomacy. If a question is asked in a way that can allow the teacher to think or probably re examine whatever was taught then that is fine.

what i find offensive is when someone decides automatically that they have the right to say what they know in a very authoritative manner, because it refutes what the teacher has said.

always bear in mind that its a teacher. you can always learn something...

i think it could be especially tenuous if it is an adult class.

 

[Mya]

If i felt that for some reason I had information to the contrary of what was being taught and i wanted to discuss it, i wouldn't do it in front of the class. I don't think it's great taste to show someone up like that or to embarass them. i would ask her aside afterwards.

I don't believe i ever did it with regards to dance in particular but i did it with regards to something dance related. Through no fault of mine it happened in front of the entire class, but i didn't do or say anything that i'm embarassed to say now, so no harm done. What was funny though was to see the whole class part like the red sea to get away from she who dareth challenge. :lol: :lol:

I don't see anything wrong with challenging, so long as it's not done in a way that disrespects or embarasses anybody. I myself, like Shanazzie tell my students that i am NOT by any means all knowing and i encourage them to research and talk to each other and to me about what they find. I can't very well go and tell them that they can only talk about what they find if it matches what i've told them!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

'challengeing' as a word is perhaps percieved as confrontational or aggressive.

I really dont mean it like this, I was meaning 'feel able to say when you feel you have been given incorrect in or not sure about something'.

How comfortable do people feel in class to do this?

It is just a general question really.

I would like to feel that I provide the opportunity for people to question and offer info. I was wondering if people generally feel able to do this and if so how? if not why?

 

[khanjar]

It is my belief no one knows everything, and everything we do is another step on the ladder of learning. If such a time came that one felt they knew it all, then for them learning has ceased, they have closed their mind to new possibilities and they will progress no further. Each and everyone of us that come to a thing, be it raks or table tennis, we always bring something new, an insight, experience or whatever, for those others who wish to learn and be learned from.

But if the feeling is felt that one feels compelled to correct a teacher, by all means do so, your input might be useful or previously unthought of, maybe even that answer another was in search of, but as good manners and respect dictate, choose a time comfortable to both, that being in private, out of the hearing of any other. Just to think, you yourself might even have got it wrong.

We are all teachers in the school of life.

 

[lizaj]

and we are all students.
Those are the teachers I don't understand...the ones who stop learning.

 

[maria_harlequin]

There is a certain kind of person who delights in challenging every other word out of a teacher's mouth. They aren't in class to learn but to indulge their egos. I don't get them very often, and they are more likely to be in creative writing classes than dance classes, but they make me tired and I generally end up asking them flat out why they bothered to take the class.

Ahhhhh...those types. I went to high school with a guy like that. He wasn't very pleasant.

 

[Shanazel]

Sometimes I think they simply are not secure in their place on the food chain and need to constantly be on the defensive.

 

[pinkcoinbelt]

about challenge + a rant

Hi! I hope this one won't stray too far from the thread.

I would usually ask my then teacher after the class about a certain movement or gesture that I couldn't understand. One time after a class, I asked her about why she wouldn't let us (or me, because I was the only one doing it) bend the wrists and so your fingers go upwards instead. She corrected my wrists from time to time. When I asked her, she said that it was an American Oriental thing and not Egyptian (she teaches Egyptian style with the relaxed, almost straight wrists). I found the explanation acceptable because I could only remember seeing the wrist thing on Ansuya and Anaheed (both are American Oriental dancers and in Ansuya's "Lavish Layers", she specifically shows the posture like, "bend your elbows, drop the wrists and lift the fingers").

That being said, I really, really hate open conflicts and I've been going back and forth thinking whether or not I should post this, but... here I go. Again, I hope I won't stray too far from the original thread.

A few months ago while I was still learning from her, we learned a very neat choreography to Alf Leila Wa Leila (sp?). It was for the early year hafla. I was enjoying it so much until my friend told me that our teacher was teaching the exact same choreography that Jillina taught in her Instructional Belly Dance vol. 1 DVD.

I didn't believe my friend at first, but she showed me the video and yes. It was 98% the same, with 2% of the moves changed into something easier. I stopped learning from that teacher both because I caught a terrible flu and lost interest in learning from her.

And then came the hafla. My friend performed in a group dance (the Alf Leila Wa Leila / Jillina choreography) and the teacher had a solo performance.

A couple of weeks after the hafla, somebody posted the videos of the hafla on her facebook page, including the teacher's solo performance. I saw it and I told my friend that it was neat although she looked exhausted in it.

To my surprise, my friend showed me the performance video of Jillina's Instructional Belly Dance vol. 2 and my lower jaw fell open. The teacher was dancing to Jillina's Warda choreography. I played the facebook video and Jillina's video and the movements were again 98% the same, beat by beat, step by step. 2% of the movements were changed into easier ones.

My question is, can a dancer do that? I mean, she's a teacher. Would it be okay if she had credited Jillina by saying that the choreography was done by Jillina and that this was her interpretation of it? My friend told me that the teacher didn't say anything about it being Jillina's.

I mean, yeah... How many movements are there in belly dance? Of course we are bound to repeat the movements. I must have watched the BDSS Live in Paris DVD for hundreds of times (I'm not kidding - I do believe it has its merits and is also a very good eye candy, like Chicago. One can learn so much about stage presence and dance positions and blockings) and whenever I play Paul Dinletir's "Entrance of the Stars", I could see myself imitating many dance movements. But I don't think I want to teach that to my students (possibly in the next 50 years or so because I'm such a slow learner and an impatient teacher).

One more thing. Male bellydancers are rare in my city / country (Jakarta, Indonesia) and while I see my dance sisters start to get amateur gigs, the organisers always refuse male dancers. And so, one time, that teacher put up the announcement that she was assembling a student troupe. She already has a professional troupe and she wanted her students to gain more experience in performing. I must've been quite good (or a novelty) because she kept telling me to join. So I signed up.

On the first student troupe meeting, she informed us that there was going to be a contract for us to sign. One of the clauses in the contract stated that we could not perform individually, and if we did perform individually, we had to ask for her permission and then put the name of the troupe after our name, example: Yuska from the XYZ Belly Dance Student Troupe.

I had thought that I was going to get more stage experience by joining the student troupe, but clearly, that was going to limit my chance of performing. Even the professional troupe didn't get many gigs. And it was not like I only went to that teacher to learn belly dance.

Thank goodness that on that meeting, she said that the contract was not done yet. It was the last time I met her. Again, I don't like conflifts so I just backed away.

So, I don't know. I guess challenging a teacher depends on the student (and how well you know the teacher, like Caroline said) and it's best to do it after the class (like Moon said).

Thank you for reading my rant and sorry if I kind of took over the thread by posting something that's not really relevant. I appreciate your thoughts.


Cheers,

Yuska

 

[shiradotnet]

I wouldn't hesitate to challenge a teacher who I felt was doing something unethical, such as pirating a commercial video or claiming that something was her own choreography when I knew it wasn't.

On historical and cultural matters, I think students should tread carefully. There are many conflicting sources of information out there, and it takes a lot of time and effort to figure out which ones are credible. I think it's okay for a student to say she's read something conflicting, but she should try to word it respectfully. For example, instead of "You're wrong! It says something entirely different in Grandmother's Secrets!" it would be better for the student to say, "That's really interesting. It's different from what I read in Grandmother's Secrets. Can you point me to your source so I can learn from it, too?"

(And of course, I used Grandmother's Secrets as my example because it's widely read and contains a lot of "information" I find questionable.)

Of course, if your teacher is the one quoting a source that you know for a fact others (such as me) have stated is questionable, in that case I'd recommend challenging your teacher in private. "I noticed you said your source for this was Grandmother's Secrets. Were you aware that a lot of people find some of its historical information problematic? Let me steer you to a review of it...."

 

[Gharam AL-Cham]

Frankly Speak I have ever never think on that
But I some time yes some time NO

 

[kayshier]

Hi! I hope this one won't stray too far from the thread.

I would usually ask my then teacher after the class about a certain movement or gesture that I couldn't understand. One time after a class, I asked her about why she wouldn't let us (or me, because I was the only one doing it) bend the wrists and so your fingers go upwards instead. She corrected my wrists from time to time. When I asked her, she said that it was an American Oriental thing and not Egyptian (she teaches Egyptian style with the relaxed, almost straight wrists). I found the explanation acceptable because I could only remember seeing the wrist thing on Ansuya and Anaheed (both are American Oriental dancers and in Ansuya's "Lavish Layers", she specifically shows the posture like, "bend your elbows, drop the wrists and lift the fingers").

That being said, I really, really hate open conflicts and I've been going back and forth thinking whether or not I should post this, but... here I go. Again, I hope I won't stray too far from the original thread.

A few months ago while I was still learning from her, we learned a very neat choreography to Alf Leila Wa Leila (sp?). It was for the early year hafla. I was enjoying it so much until my friend told me that our teacher was teaching the exact same choreography that Jillina taught in her Instructional Belly Dance vol. 1 DVD.

I didn't believe my friend at first, but she showed me the video and yes. It was 98% the same, with 2% of the moves changed into something easier. I stopped learning from that teacher both because I caught a terrible flu and lost interest in learning from her.

And then came the hafla. My friend performed in a group dance (the Alf Leila Wa Leila / Jillina choreography) and the teacher had a solo performance.

A couple of weeks after the hafla, somebody posted the videos of the hafla on her facebook page, including the teacher's solo performance. I saw it and I told my friend that it was neat although she looked exhausted in it.

To my surprise, my friend showed me the performance video of Jillina's Instructional Belly Dance vol. 2 and my lower jaw fell open. The teacher was dancing to Jillina's Warda choreography. I played the facebook video and Jillina's video and the movements were again 98% the same, beat by beat, step by step. 2% of the movements were changed into easier ones.

My question is, can a dancer do that? I mean, she's a teacher. Would it be okay if she had credited Jillina by saying that the choreography was done by Jillina and that this was her interpretation of it? My friend told me that the teacher didn't say anything about it being Jillina's.

I mean, yeah... How many movements are there in belly dance? Of course we are bound to repeat the movements. I must have watched the BDSS Live in Paris DVD for hundreds of times (I'm not kidding - I do believe it has its merits and is also a very good eye candy, like Chicago. One can learn so much about stage presence and dance positions and blockings) and whenever I play Paul Dinletir's "Entrance of the Stars", I could see myself imitating many dance movements. But I don't think I want to teach that to my students (possibly in the next 50 years or so because I'm such a slow learner and an impatient teacher).

One more thing. Male bellydancers are rare in my city / country (Jakarta, Indonesia) and while I see my dance sisters start to get amateur gigs, the organisers always refuse male dancers. And so, one time, that teacher put up the announcement that she was assembling a student troupe. She already has a professional troupe and she wanted her students to gain more experience in performing. I must've been quite good (or a novelty) because she kept telling me to join. So I signed up.

On the first student troupe meeting, she informed us that there was going to be a contract for us to sign. One of the clauses in the contract stated that we could not perform individually, and if we did perform individually, we had to ask for her permission and then put the name of the troupe after our name, example: Yuska from the XYZ Belly Dance Student Troupe.

I had thought that I was going to get more stage experience by joining the student troupe, but clearly, that was going to limit my chance of performing. Even the professional troupe didn't get many gigs. And it was not like I only went to that teacher to learn belly dance.

Thank goodness that on that meeting, she said that the contract was not done yet. It was the last time I met her. Again, I don't like conflifts so I just backed away.

So, I don't know. I guess challenging a teacher depends on the student (and how well you know the teacher, like Caroline said) and it's best to do it after the class (like Moon said).

Thank you for reading my rant and sorry if I kind of took over the thread by posting something that's not really relevant. I appreciate your thoughts.


Cheers,

Yuska

this is clearly unethical, and i would have no problems challenging or even confronting the teacher, privately of course before i decide to leave the class.
i consider something like that completely dishonest, artistically, intellectually, all sorts of dishonesty.

for me there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from another dancer...or to even acknowledge that the choreography is from another dancer, but to pass it off as your own creative work? that's a skunk (pardon me for saying so)

 

[Mya]

for me there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from another dancer...or to even acknowledge that the choreography is from another dancer, but to pass it off as your own creative work? that's a skunk (pardon me for saying so)

No need to ask pardon i say - the only people who might have a problem with that comment is those who ...well - are skunky.