Mislabeling a performance

alosha

New member
So what do you do when a dancer says that her performance was improvised, when you know it wasn't because you've seen her perform the same routine previously?

To be labeled as improvised does the whole piece need to be, or just a tiny bit (about 30 sec) ?

Argh.
 

Mya

New member
That's an interesting question - sometimes depending on the piece, i have a general framework for a choreography; i might choreograph the landmark segments of the music and have general ideas of movement for the rest which change each time i perform it.

I guess whether i call it improvised or not depends on how long and frequent the landmark segments are. If there's only one and it's not too long, i'll call it improv, if there are a couple and they take up at least a minute of the song then i'm not so inclined to call it improv.
 
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Shanazel

Moderator
I never choreograph anything if I can help it, but after dancing to the same music a few dozen times, it is not unusual for me to repeat particular interpretations simply because they suit the music best. To my mind, choreographed dances result from carefully planned and counted movements to a certain piece of music. Interpretive dances are created as the music plays, though they are not completely re-created each time because the dancer is so familiar with the music.

Lord, what a jumble of words. Does that make any sense at all? Sorry, but I just washed my mind and can't do a thing with it.
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
A dance can have a structure without it being a choreography.

Most people who improvise have some structure in mind, at least a beginning, middle and end.

Some people do just 'wing it'.

If they are very skilled they get away with it, if they are not... then they looked like they 'winged it'.

Being economical with the truth is another matter all together.
 

Mya

New member
OK! well based on Caro's definition, i can probably comfortably say that i don't choreograph.

I'm not fond of ambiguity myself.
 

alosha

New member
To me improvised it 'mostly improvised'. I know that when you've listened to the music, you know that "this spot would be good for _____" and the like, and I am a huge fan of that. The problem is, this is a piece that she's done exactly the same, save for a few spots. I guess since it was improvised at one point, it's ok for her to say its an improvised solo? When I see something advertised at 'improvised' i think they're coming up with the majority on the spot and in the moment, which gives the performance that much more personality. With her, I think that's why she labeled it as such, so she gets "OMG you improvised that????" type comments.

Just wanted to clarify for my own understanding, as I'm studying ATS, so improvised means "very much so" improvised to me.
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I don't know much about ATS, but it was my impression that dancers learn combinations and are guided by a lead dancer as to what combination is to be danced next in any given performance. Did I misunderstand?

The ultimate improvisation, of course, is to dance to music you've never danced to before. As Caroline says, less skilled dancers will look like they are winging it while those with excellent improvisational skills will look as smooth as silk.
 
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alosha

New member
in ATS, you know the move, but not until they cue it, so you really don't know what to expect until it happens. But with a choreographed routine, you do a certain thing in a certain spot. So is it ok to call a choreography improvised if only a small bit of it is?
 

Kashmir

New member
If it is music I know, then an improvised piece will have a structure in my head - I might abandon it on the day - but most times it will be similar. The actual bits that fill the blocks will vary on how I feel, what I have been recently working on, physical space, mood of the crowd, whether I'm going to interact with the audience etc. But I imagine if I improvise to the same music dozens of times it will get a sameness.

Is this what you saw? Also, how good is your dance memory? I recently had a student that insisted she saw X performing a class choreography. She even remembered details of the costume. A quick flick of a video of the show in question revealed X performed a piece which included a Turkish walk with fists hitting hips. The class choreography included the same move - but nothing else was the same. No shared combos. Different music. But I know I'll have to show the video to my student before she'll believe me :)
 

Kashmir

New member
But is ATS really improv?

in ATS, you know the move, but not until they cue it, so you really don't know what to expect until it happens. But with a choreographed routine, you do a certain thing in a certain spot. So is it ok to call a choreography improvised if only a small bit of it is?
I'm always a little sceptical about ATS improv. As I understand, one person improvs the rest play follow the bouncing butt. Just like we do in Egyptian classes. Only in class the next move can be literally anything - we probably have never seen a breakdown of it and it may not be repeated.

From friends who do ATS, I understand not only do they learn a set of acceptable moves - and cues - separately, but they also practice together like nothing else. Is this really improv? Not for the group obviously, but for the leader? First, the moves are pre-defined, the assembly has all sorts of rules, then they practice the same number for hours every week. I'd put money on the result, in most cases, is very similar from run to run. Yes, something new might be thrown in, but the point of all that rehearsal is to make sure the group is never surprised and unable to follow.
 

alosha

New member
This is way more than a 'sameness'. She said it was her solo that she's been choreographing when she performed it for us, then performed it a few days later saying it was improvised.

Please don't think I am trying to pick on anyone or anything, I'm just trying to figure out if she's 'lying' or if saying 'improvised' is quite loose. I've only ever seen other cabaret dancers specify that the performance was improvised when it was only the first or second time they'd heard the music, not when it was a song they'd been working on a choreography to.

I learn SO much from this forum!
 

Aniseteph

New member
Why not ask?

It's entirely reasonable, if she demos it in class you should be able to ask questions so you can learn (or else what is it doing in class time?). Was that all choreographed or improvised or a mix, how do you structure your dancing?
 

Marya

Member
This is way more than a 'sameness'. She said it was her solo that she's been choreographing when she performed it for us, then performed it a few days later saying it was improvised.

Please don't think I am trying to pick on anyone or anything, I'm just trying to figure out if she's 'lying' or if saying 'improvised' is quite loose. I've only ever seen other cabaret dancers specify that the performance was improvised when it was only the first or second time they'd heard the music, not when it was a song they'd been working on a choreography to.

I learn SO much from this forum!

Maybe she forgot something and had to improvise, in that case I would say let her call it improvisation.

Marya
 

alosha

New member
I'm doing the smile and nod, but I really just wanted to clarify because I was kinda confused as to what constituted an improvised performance.

Thanks Everyone!
 

Kharis

New member
So what do you do when a dancer says that her performance was improvised, when you know it wasn't because you've seen her perform the same routine previously?

To be labeled as improvised does the whole piece need to be, or just a tiny bit (about 30 sec) ?

Argh.

A good dancer can improvise and make it look as though it's choreographed. If she knows that music inside out there will be key parts that she does repetitive moves to... I do this myself. Then there are parts you change each time as the mood dictates. To someone who's perhaps only watched it a couple of times, it may look identical but in fact only part of it is.
 

staranise

New member
I'm always a little sceptical about ATS improv. As I understand, one person improvs the rest play follow the bouncing butt. Just like we do in Egyptian classes. Only in class the next move can be literally anything - we probably have never seen a breakdown of it and it may not be repeated.

From friends who do ATS, I understand not only do they learn a set of acceptable moves - and cues - separately, but they also practice together like nothing else. Is this really improv? Not for the group obviously, but for the leader? First, the moves are pre-defined, the assembly has all sorts of rules, then they practice the same number for hours every week. I'd put money on the result, in most cases, is very similar from run to run. Yes, something new might be thrown in, but the point of all that rehearsal is to make sure the group is never surprised and unable to follow.

Sorry all if this is getting a bit off topic but I have a similar situation, possibly from the other side, that I'd like to share.

I am in a troupe that is ATS based - usually for performance we choreograph but recently we've aspired to make all of our performances "improv" with the aim to present true ATS. Our first fully "improvised" performance was the other month at a event in our community that featured several dance schools, most were bellydance and most of the audience were bellydancers. We are the only tribal school in this area.

we practiced so much the weeks leading up to the event, really getting in sync with each other, learning each other's nuances but also how to communicate cues in advance of the movements, it really knocked our dancing up a notch. We advertised that we were doing Improvised American Tribal Style bellydance. When the performance came along it went really well, there were no stuff ups and we got positive feedback from members of the audience.

A few days later I was surprised to find out our teacher/director had communicated with a teacher who was in the audience who said she did not believe that what we were doing an improvised dance, implying our teacher had deceived the audience. She had taken it upon herself to tell others her opinion, her evidence being that we were "too in sync" and that she had heard that we had put in extra practice!

Now, prior to all of this we had all been at a workshop with a premier australian ATS teacher. The other teacher had then questioned the workshop presenter about the use of the term "Improv" when the movements themselves are choreographed. The workshop presenter understood and responded that it is technically an improvised choreography .

I definitely prefer the use of this term, and perhaps in hindsight we should have used that in our introduction. But what we had said was not a lie!
 

alosha

New member
A good dancer can improvise and make it look as though it's choreographed. If she knows that music inside out there will be key parts that she does repetitive moves to... I do this myself. Then there are parts you change each time as the mood dictates. To someone who's perhaps only watched it a couple of times, it may look identical but in fact only part of it is.

We were told it was her choreography she had been working on, but there were a few 'holes' yet to be choreographed.
 
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