Belly Dancing isn't manly.

[Tarik Sultan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCj8n1ooflU&feature=

Hey Tarik, Is this what you are talking about .. organized Bazzrameet!! Where is Raqs Sharkee in this!! :think: What beauty!! I guess it's in the eye of the beholder :clap:

No this isn't what I mean at all. First of all, these guys aren't dancing baladi at this moment, let alone Sharki. This is the shabbi group dance stuff I was talking about. The dancers I saw in Alexandria were much better. After they did the group dance stuff they started getting down for real.

I've explained this in great detail in other posts and to you in person. Not for nothing, but I'm really tired of explaining it, but here we go..... again.

Raks Sharki is based on the same social dance that ALL Egyptians do, male and female. The basic movement are the same for both sexes. The principle of dancing with emotion and feeling, personality, is the same for both men and women. Expressing sensuality through movement is the same for men and women. The use of the fluid and graceful hands to frame the body and compliment the movements are the same for men and women.

So what makes Sharki different? What they added to the basic character of the social dance was #1: a greater use of space, a concept they borrowed from ballroom dance. #2: More complex musical interpretation, (although this is not always the case. Sohair Zaki's dance style for example was very basic and not far removed from Baladi). #3: More dramatic expression and stage presence.

What I say for men also goes for women. If you are going to dance real Egyptian style dances, then you have to watch ordinary Egyptian people when they dance, (people who can dance) to study the body language, the way they listen to and express the music etc.

For men coming to the dance, they need to watch men who can dance to see what it looks like when an Egyptian man is doing a set of movements in a sensual way. How he responds to the music, how he does his movements. What you will see in Egypt are tons of men who know how to dance. They are sensual, they have feeling and personality behind their movements, yet, they do not look like they are imitating women. And yes Masrawy, THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL and they are not ashamed of it. Men are beautiful. We have our own beauty and this is a concept that exists in the Arabic language. A man is gameel, a woman is gameela. Same word, but one describes MALE beauty and the other describes FEMALE beauty. Male dancers need to watch men in Egypt, who know how to dance, who are comfortable in their bodies in order to learn what male beauty and sensuality looks like.

This guy has sensuality. He still looks like a man


This man is a good dancer. He's comfortable in his body. He shakes his hips, but he still looks like a man.


This kid can twirl his hips in a very sensual way, he still looks like a guy



These are the basic ingredients of Raks Sharki. If a guy wants to know how to do Sharki and NOT look like he's imitating a woman, then he needs to watch guys like these. Learn how to move and express himself like them, then take what he's learned from the real people in the culture and add the theatrical elements for the stage.

If part of the culture goes downhill that does not at present the whole culture. We shouldn't mix the good the bad and ugly in one bag a bad apple will spoil the whole bunch :naghty:

Masrawy how are boy dancers entertaining the crowd at a wedding an example of the culture going down? Like it or not, this is the real culture. Men have always dance. All these guys are doing is entertaining the guests instead of entertaining each other. All they have done really is organize what Egyptian guys have always done and are still doing. It is a real representation of the culture. Unlike you, Egyptians in Egypt don't seem to think there's some sort of competition between female dancers and these guys. They appreciate and enjoy what each has to offer. They enjoy a good ra'asa, but they also really enjoy the pure fun and joy that these guys bring because its a chance to just let your hair down and just jam. Celebrate and have FUN. At the end of the day Masrawy, that's what it's all about. A wedding represents the real spirit of the Egyptians far more than a smokey night club where most of the women are hooker and all the guys are sitting there with drinks looking like they've got ice cubes stuck up their asses.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Hi Tarik,

I too see the same discussion re-hashed over and over gain but hey... thats the nature of forums.

I can clearly see what both you and Mahmoud are saying.

As you are aware, Mahmoud is not alone in his perception of the male presentation of this dance as a performance entertainment, and he is well aware of how the dance looks socially.

The thing to bare in mind is not all men in Egypt dance and not all men in Egypt dance this particular and many do see it is feminine... not Shaabi. Believe me, I know plenty.

Someone asked khaled Mahmoud how long he had been dancing in Egypt in one of his recent workshops and his reply was 'I am not allowed to dance in Egypt, Egypt does not permit male belly dancers, they do not issue licenses'.

Many people were shocked at this because in the West they see so many male 'belly dancers' and assume/ led to believe it is the norm in the ME, when it is not.

Social dancing is but again, not for everyone.

I have been trying to find Fifi Abdou on the Hala Serhan show where she talks about Tito and male dancers in general. She mentions about male teachers etc. and how involved they are and how she herself had lessons from male teachers (me thinks) but apparently she see's a clip of Tito dancing and declares..'this dance is not for men!' has anyone seen this clip?

I have only been told about this from fellow Arabs in the dance scene but I want to see it for myself and understand the full context. It was the talk of the town.

YouTube - Fifi Abdo In Hala Show p11 ???? ?? ???? ????

This is episode 11 but cannot find the reference to Tito.

 

[Eve]

Hi Tarik,

I too see the same discussion re-hashed over and over gain but hey... thats the nature of forums.

I can clearly see what both you and Mahmoud are saying.

As you are aware, Mahmoud is not alone in his perception of the male presentation of this dance as a performance entertainment, and he is well aware of how the dance looks socially.

The thing to bare in mind is not all men in Egypt dance and not all men in Egypt dance this particular and many do see it is feminine... not Shaabi. Believe me, I know plenty.

Someone asked khaled Mahmoud how long he had been dancing in Egypt in one of his recent workshops and his reply was 'I am not allowed to dance in Egypt, Egypt does not permit male belly dancers, they do not issue licenses'.

Many people were shocked at this because in the West they see so many male 'belly dancers' and assume/ led to believe it is the norm in the ME, when it is not.

Social dancing is but again, not for everyone.

I have been trying to find Fifi Abdou on the Hala Serhan show where she talks about Tito and male dancers in general. She mentions about male teachers etc. and how involved they are and how she herself had lessons from male teachers (me thinks) but apparently she see's a clip of Tito dancing and declares..'this dance is not for men!' has anyone seen this clip?

I have only been told about this from fellow Arabs in the dance scene but I want to see it for myself and understand the full context. It was the talk of the town.

YouTube - Fifi Abdo In Hala Show p11 ???? ?? ???? ????

This is episode 11 but cannot find the reference to Tito.

yep. I was in that workshop. He said because he is raks not folkloric.

It was also mentioned how 'your mother is a dancer' is an insult.

I do find it an interesting perspective considering the number of men behind the scenes who are involved in training/choreographers etc but for them to get on stage is still a big :naghty: I understand it in an academic way but it still fires up a does not compute in my western brain.

Actually, how much context do students want or need? If they're just tootling round for a bit of fun do they need to equate what they're doing (in some peoples eyes) as not to far off being a whore?..........Probably not at the first lesson

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Hi Tarik,

I too see the same discussion re-hashed over and over gain but hey... thats the nature of forums.

I can clearly see what both you and Mahmoud are saying.

As you are aware, Mahmoud is not alone in his perception of the male presentation of this dance as a performance entertainment, and he is well aware of how the dance looks socially.

The thing to bare in mind is not all men in Egypt dance and not all men in Egypt dance this particular and many do see it is feminine... not Shaabi. Believe me, I know plenty.

I totally understand where he's coming from and I agree with everything you've just said. In fact, these are points that I have brought up myself in previous discussions. My point here is that you have to show both sides of the coin. I think way too often, people in general look for quick simple answers when in fact we live in a very multi faceted complex world. Egypt is no less complex or full of contradictions than our own society.

There are many men who do not dance in Egypt, and by the same token, there are many women who don't either. The idea that every Egyptian woman is a closet Fifi Abdo is a myth.

Not everyone in the society see's things the same way. I've met loads of guys who see moving the body in this way as strictly feminine and go so far as to say men in Egypt don't move their hips when they dance. Well that's clearly not true because it is part of the movement expression in that country. There can be many reasons for this. The thing is Who is right? The guys who say this is feminine and don't like to see guys move this way, or the millions of men who instinctively respond to the music with their hips, hands and arms when the music hits them? The answer is there is no right. It depends on the individual. It is all just parts of a whole.

Someone asked khaled Mahmoud how long he had been dancing in Egypt in one of his recent workshops and his reply was 'I am not allowed to dance in Egypt, Egypt does not permit male belly dancers, they do not issue licenses'.

And this is a point I've been raising for years. Dance is controlled by the government, not the people. I think that Sharem is an interesting example of this. A few men have begun performing and from what I saw when I was there, they are appreciated. Most of the people at these shows are either Egyptians or Arabs, at least thats what it was when I was in Alf Layla and the Old Market. However, when the government makes rules that The Redda troupe or National folk troupe can't have men moving their hips on stage, that is an artificial restriction. If men in Egypt didn't move their hips, there would be no need to make such a rule. The situation is that they do, but for whatever reasons, the government is not comfortable with this aspect of their culture and so they have censored it from public view as much as they can. This is the reason why there are no licenses issued to men.

Many people were shocked at this because in the West they see so many male 'belly dancers' and assume/ led to believe it is the norm in the ME, when it is not.

Social dancing is the norm. But for many Westerners, even this is a revelation, because this fact has either been ignored totally or covered up. I'm saying, look at the whole picture. Men for the most part don't perform, not because there aren't men who want to, not because there aren't men who have the talent, not because there aren't people who would enjoy their performances, but because they prevented from doing so by the government. Any old slag in Egypt can get a license to do whatever the f&&& they feel, even if they have two left feet and three big toes, but a talented male dancer has no chance of being seen unless they are under the radar.

This is Mero. He is a very talented dancer. His dancing is graceful, beautiful, and has great artistic merit by any standards. And yet, he can't get a license, but some slag that only has 1 and a 1/2 moves and looks like 10 lbs of sh(* in a 5 pound sack, who comes out and humps the floor can. WTF?!






Social dancing is but again, not for everyone.

This is true, but the same goes for women as well.

I have been trying to find Fifi Abdou on the Hala Serhan show where she talks about Tito and male dancers in general. She mentions about male teachers etc. and how involved they are and how she herself had lessons from male teachers (me thinks) but apparently she see's a clip of Tito dancing and declares..'this dance is not for men!' has anyone seen this clip?

I haven't heard of this. But his footage is from a performance Tito did in honor of Fifi Abdu. She was right there on stage watching.



Now what Gypsy told me about the show, was that Fifi said that Tito's dancing was pure art and for the people who claim that the dance is just about sex, this showed they were wrong.

I have only been told about this from fellow Arabs in the dance scene but I want to see it for myself and understand the full context. It was the talk of the town.

YouTube - Fifi Abdo In Hala Show p11 ???? ?? ???? ????

This is episode 11 but cannot find the reference to Tito.

I can't understand what she's saying here, but it would be a strange contradiction for her to praise him in one moment, then disapprove of him the next.

By the way, another part of the puzzle that most people tend to over look in discussions of this issue, is that there are significant numbers of people in Egypt, who if they had there way, would ban women from dancing professionally al together. They do not approve. So why is it that they are still there? Its because the government allows them to be there because for the most part, dancing is tied into the tourist industry and that means $$$$$$. That's what it's really all about. If Egypt were a free society, not controlled by a right wing military dictatorship, there would be freedom of artistic expression and people could pick and choose what forms of entertainment they want to see. Would every Egyptian like to see male dancers? No, but then again, not every Egyptians cares to see Dina either.

My whole point is that I am against broad sweeping generalizations that ALL Egyptians hold one perspective or point of view on any one topic. People have their opinions and points of view and that is valid and fine. If a person doesn't like to see a male dancer, such as myself, fine. But what I have a problem with is when they try to say that everybody feels the same way that they do and therefore I shouldn't be given the chance. I've had Egyptian, MANY Egyptians tell me that if I moved my hips like that in Egypt, I'd be killed. Well, I dance regularly for the Egyptian community in my area,(they want me to come back agin), I've danced at Egyptian weddings, I've just danced at a wedding in Alexandria, I was asked to dance, (informally) in the old market in Sharam and I'm still alive. Wonder of wonders. hen all is said and done, people are just people. They want to have a good time. Now one person's idea of a good time may not be the same as another's but why should it? That's like saying everyone has to love rum raisin ice cream. My problem with the Egyptian government is that they don't even let you make rum raisin ice cream. They only allow you to make vanilla and tell you that's all there is, there's no other flavor, and then if you try to tell them that there's also chocolate, they censor and ban you and say, you see, Egyptian people only eat vanilla. Vanilla is REAL Egyptian. That's bullshit no matter how you slice it. The absence of male dancers in Egypt is an artificial construct, not one that arises from the sentiments of the people as a whole, but hey, it is what it is. That's the situation. I just wish people would see it in the true context of what it is.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I can't understand what she's saying here, but it would be a strange contradiction for her to praise him in one moment, then disapprove of him the next.

This is what I thought which is why I have been trying to find it... seems odd to me which is why I want to hear it in context.

By the way, another part of the puzzle that most people tend to over look in discussions of this issue, is that there are significant numbers of people in Egypt, who if they had there way, would ban women from dancing professionally al together. They do not approve. So why is it that they are still there? Its because the government allows them to be there because for the most part, dancing is tied into the tourist industry and that means $$$$$$. That's what it's really all about.

Yes this is true and infact, many of the Egyptian places have had their dance license withdrew and the dancers have become singers.

If Egypt were a free society, not controlled by a right wing military dictatorship, there would be freedom of artistic expression and people could pick and choose what forms of entertainment they want to see. Would every Egyptian like to see male dancers? No, but then again, not every Egyptians cares to see Dina either.

But it is still somewhat of a macho/male dominated society and have certain views on who should provide entertainment and how etc.

My whole point is that I am against broad sweeping generalizations that ALL Egyptians hold one perspective or point of view on any one topic. People have their opinions and points of view and that is valid and fine. If a person doesn't like to see a male dancer, such as myself, fine. But what I have a problem with is when they try to say that everybody feels the same way that they do and therefore I shouldn't be given the chance. I've had Egyptian, MANY Egyptians tell me that if I moved my hips like that in Egypt, I'd be killed.

well that is not strictly true at all.

Well, I dance regularly for the Egyptian community in my area,(they want me to come back agin), I've danced at Egyptian weddings, I've just danced at a wedding in Alexandria, I was asked to dance, (informally) in the old market in Sharam and I'm still alive. Wonder of wonders. hen all is said and done, people are just people. They want to have a good time. Now one person's idea of a good time may not be the same as another's but why should it? That's like saying everyone has to love rum raisin ice cream.

As a foreigner visiting the country and spending moeny etc. you will be aloud to do alot more than your average Egyptian... this includes walking the corniche in Sharm with a small red thing and you ass on display. I have seen this a few times.

My problem with the Egyptian government is that they don't even let you make rum raisin ice cream. They only allow you to make vanilla and tell you that's all there is, there's no other flavor, and then if you try to tell them that there's also chocolate, they censor and ban you and say, you see, Egyptian people only eat vanilla. Vanilla is REAL Egyptian. That's bullshit no matter how you slice it. The absence of male dancers in Egypt is an artificial construct, not one that arises from the sentiments of the people as a whole, but hey, it is what it is. That's the situation. I just wish people would see it in the true context of what it is.

They dont really want the women there so why should they encourage men dancing too? As you know, they feel this will cause all kinds of gay men to take up this profession, as they would assume that only gay men would want to do something like become a male belly dancer.

They sell alcohol in Egypt but it is not in your face, this is how the society is.

The opening of doors to male performers could well open flood gates the authorities would prefer to keep closed.

They want less dancers not more and in the current economic climate, this could be a possibilty but not one they want to consider for a whole host of reasons.

I also think Tito is still very much the lone novelty, I am not sure how many Egyptians would want this as a regular feature, it is impossible to say.

How did the wedding go for you and what did you do? did they view you as a 'belly dancer' or a 'baladi style' male dancer?

PS!! Just in relation to what you were saying about the full picture/otherside of the coin. This was my point too but the other way... I think it is important people know the full picture that it is not the 'norm' in Egypt for men to be belly dancers just as it is not the real norm in the West if we strip it all down.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

They dont really want the women there so why should they encourage men dancing too? As you know, they feel this will cause all kinds of gay men to take up this profession, as they would assume that only gay men would want to do something like become a male belly dancer.

Exactly. But my problem here is the assumption that the only woman who would want to dance would be a prostitute or a woman with loose morals to begin with and that only a "deviant" man would want to dance. I think it really says more about the muck a mucks in control than it does about the would be dancers.....

They sell alcohol in Egypt but it is not in your face, this is how the society is.

True. But then again, there is that assumption. Unfortunately, when you have that kind of mentality, what ends up happening is you create a self fulfilling prophecy. You say only sluts and gays would want to dance. So all the people who aren't sluts or gays steer clear of it out of fear of being labeled that way. So whose he only ones who will do it?.... Sluts and gays. If you call a slut a slut or a gay a gay, they have nothing to lose because they're like, "yeah, and"?

Its because there's that ambivalent feeling about dance to begin with and the fact that too many people, especially those gov't muck a mucks, do not see the dance as a legitimate expression of their culture or an art form. Its a bit of a sexy turn that brings in tourist dollars. But now that fundamentalism is on the rise, lets phase it out. If they did see it as an art, then there would be no need to have such a discussion because men would be free to dance and women from ordinary backgrounds who have an attraction to the arts would feel free to pursue it. Not just morally suspect women, or women who have no other economic prospects.

The opening of doors to male performers could well open flood gates the authorities would prefer to keep closed.

Once again, It says more about them. Truth be told, there are a lot of them who would love nothing better than if all this local culture would die, dry up, blow away, then rub the remaining population from head to foot in skin bleaching cream so they could take Egypt out of Africa and put it in Southern Europe instead where it really belongs!

Sarcasm aside, I think you are hitting the nail on the head here. Its not that men dancing with that part of the body is not part of the culture, nor that people wouldn't enjoy it. The question here is WHY is there a ban on it and the answer that you touch on here answers that. Its FEAR. Fear of being perceived a certain way. The next question to ask is why would they fear this and the answer I believe lies in their colonial past.

They want less dancers not more and in the current economic climate, this could be a possibilty but not one they want to consider for a whole host of reasons.

Well, I think if the economy continues to tank, it will pretty much take care of the "problem" itself don't you think?:think:

I also think Tito is still very much the lone novelty, I am not sure how many Egyptians would want this as a regular feature, it is impossible to say.

He's a novelty, but not so lone anymore. If the artificial restrictions did not exist, there would be a lot more still and even better than him. If more guys felt they could gain a good income from it, respect as an artists and opportunities to travel, you would see a lot of guys lining up to get a chance. Years ago before Tito was on the scene, I said that if there was a tourist demand for male dancers in Egypt, you would see it and if it was successful, it would be imitated. This is exactly what has happened. How long it is allowed to remain before its suppressed by the right wing, reactionary establishment, who knows. One thing is clear though, the show is full every night and those who see it really love it.

What would happen on a larger scale if things were normalized? I think that some people would love it, some people would hate it, most people wouldn't give a s**t because they couldn't afford to see such a show anyway. There were a lot of Egyptians and Gulf Arabs who went out of their way to see Tito. And even though Tito wasn't there, when I was, people were talking about him, as well as the two guys he's trained Mero and his brother Ali. I think when anyone has a certain amount of media exposure, (which Tito has gotten from youtube and the LBC performances), they automatically draw a crowd. Its the glamour factor.

How did the wedding go for you and what did you do? did they view you as a 'belly dancer' or a 'baladi style' male dancer?

The wedding went very well and the people loved it, (everyone wanted me to sit at their table afterwards so they could feed me):lol:. I did the Shisha dance, then my student did an Oriental solo and then we did a duet and drum solo. I didn't get to do my Oriental solo because the wedding started 2hrs late and after I did my dance the management wanted to end the entertainment and serve dinner. I had to fight to insist that my student went on, (they loved her).

To answer your second question, I don't think people really tried to categorize me. I was just "a male dancer" if you know what I mean. It was different to some degree than what the boy dancers did because I was the center of attention rather than part of a group. Other than that, in their eyes, there really wasn't anything that unique about me. I think the biggest surprise was that I wasn't Egyptian.

PS!! Just in relation to what you were saying about the full picture/otherside of the coin. This was my point too but the other way... I think it is important people know the full picture that it is not the 'norm' in Egypt for men to be belly dancers just as it is not the real norm in the West if we strip it all down.

Exactly. I know where you're coming from and we are in total agreement. One thing that I've always been saying is that we have to realize that there is social dancing and professional dancing. Tis is a distinction that far to often is over looked, or not realized at all. Its very normal for men to dance in this fashion. The movements and aesthetic is to a great extent unisex. What is sex specific is the current context of professional dancing. Male dancing is quite normal in Egypt, but its the context that you have to specify when speaking about it. The reason I pay so much attention to it is because most people don't realize that that context, (social dance), exists at all. In fact, most of my debates have been trying to point out to people that it does in fact exist. As I am want to say, I just have the balls to put on a costume and do in public what many guys in Egypt do in their living room!:lol:
[/QUOTE]

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Quote:
Well, I dance regularly for the Egyptian community in my area,(they want me to come back agin), I've danced at Egyptian weddings, I've just danced at a wedding in Alexandria, I was asked to dance, (informally) in the old market in Sharam and I'm still alive. Wonder of wonders. hen all is said and done, people are just people. They want to have a good time. Now one person's idea of a good time may not be the same as another's but why should it? That's like saying everyone has to love rum raisin ice cream.

As a foreigner visiting the country and spending moeny etc. you will be aloud to do alot more than your average Egyptian... this includes walking the corniche in Sharm with a small red thing and you ass on display. I have seen this a few times.

Well, in the context of my little extravaganza in Sharam, I didn't spend any money at all and no one knew I wasn't Egyptian, (most people assumed I was Aswani), except the people who spoke with me after wards to tell me how much they liked my dancing and to ask if I would be performing the next day!:lol: In fact a couple of the Egyptian guys who worked there got up to join me. In fact in Nama Bey there're all those outdoor cafes where the waiters tie scarfs around their gallabeyas and dance. So despite what I was told about courting death if I dared shake my ass in Egypt, plenty of guys were not only doing the same thing, but they do it better than me. I just do it in a costume and get paid for it. Go figure!:think:

 

[DaVidofScandinavia]

One of the motivations for legal and cultural restrictions in both western and eastern cultures is the perception of the opposite of oneself and an effort to prevent ones own identity to become "that other one".

Eastern cultures deal with their matters in different ways than western cultures. There is nothing we can do about it and pointing out how "wrong" they are according to our own perceptions really has no constructive purpose.

If the Egyptian government and society was so against male dancers - there would be no Reda Troupe, no Tito at all. They allow Tito to do whatever he does under the legal pretence of being a folk dancer as he, in their perception, poses no threat and preserves what to them is an appropriate reflection of their culture and arts.

What they fear is a westernization of their identity, society and culture. What they do fear are openly gay people posing as relevant voices in their communities. What they do fear is the pornification of their women and their culture.

No Egyptian hates their cultural heritage. How they want it preserved is what the question is.

Whether the superior stance of eastern countries in regard to western cultures and perceptions offends westerners, or the superior stance of western countries in regard to eastern cultures and perceptions offends easterners - that is pretty much obvious. We should ensure however that we do not act arrogantly either way as this hurts whatever effort we may have in understanding each other and building bridges between each other. Isn't that what we are in this dance for? We all non-Egyptians with no direct previous and/or current ties to the Egyptian culture?

Treading carefully and not judgementally in regard to other cultures is an artform in itself - and I think we all fail at being prejudice free. Some more than others.

As far as Egypt being in Africa - yes, it is on the African continent - but it also has very very strong ties to the rest of the Muslim world and culturally also has strong ties to the Middle East and Asia. I think we can discuss back and forth to no avail - but there will be no one observation which will be more correct. Furthermore, the concept of division into continents and countries is quite often a western concept.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

If we were on speaking terms, I might address you, but alas, we are not.

One of the motivations for legal and cultural restrictions in both western and eastern cultures is the perception of the opposite of oneself and an effort to prevent ones own identity to become "that other one".

Eastern cultures deal with their matters in different ways than western cultures. There is nothing we can do about it and pointing out how "wrong" they are according to our own perceptions really has no constructive purpose.

If the Egyptian government and society was so against male dancers - there would be no Reda Troupe, no Tito at all. They allow Tito to do whatever he does under the legal pretence of being a folk dancer as he, in their perception, poses no threat and preserves what to them is an appropriate reflection of their culture and arts.

What they fear is a westernization of their identity, society and culture. What they do fear are openly gay people posing as relevant voices in their communities. What they do fear is the pornification of their women and their culture.

No Egyptian hates their cultural heritage. How they want it preserved is what the question is.

Whether the superior stance of eastern countries in regard to western cultures and perceptions offends westerners, or the superior stance of western countries in regard to eastern cultures and perceptions offends easterners - that is pretty much obvious. We should ensure however that we do not act arrogantly either way as this hurts whatever effort we may have in understanding each other and building bridges between each other. Isn't that what we are in this dance for? We all non-Egyptians with no direct previous and/or current ties to the Egyptian culture?

Treading carefully and not judgementally in regard to other cultures is an artform in itself - and I think we all fail at being prejudice free. Some more than others.

As far as Egypt being in Africa - yes, it is on the African continent - but it also has very very strong ties to the rest of the Muslim world and culturally also has strong ties to the Middle East and Asia. I think we can discuss back and forth to no avail - but there will be no one observation which will be more correct. Furthermore, the concept of division into continents and countries is quite often a western concept.

totally takes the sarcasm of my comment out of context, whatever

 

[nightdancer]

Manly, womanly...as long as its dancerly, I dont care.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Me neither but lets not forget this is not a purely 'personal' discussion we are having here, but refelcting on many aspects of the dance and the various perceptions from various cultural persepectives.

 

[masrawy]

Caroline and Tarik not not you're looking for, but very interesting her opinion in Westerner dancer. Not good I'll say but more importantly she is also saying the condition of belly dance in Egypt of gone down the drain. As I was telling you ...





YouTube - Fifi Abdo In Hala Show p2 ???? ?? ???? ????

I could only imagine her opinion in male belly dancer, I doubt it she will shy from speaking her mind ... :lol:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Exactly. But my problem here is the assumption that the only woman who would want to dance would be a prostitute or a woman with loose morals to begin with and that only a "deviant" man would want to dance. I think it really says more about the muck a mucks in control than it does about the would be dancers.....

Well as you know, it is tied in with deep rooted morals around dignity and respectability etc. it is not even a 'Muslim' issue as many Christians in Egypt share the same moral judgement. This is perhaps one of the greatest misconception in the BD scene in the West.

True. But then again, there is that assumption. Unfortunately, when you have that kind of mentality, what ends up happening is you create a self fulfilling prophecy. You say only sluts and gays would want to dance. So all the people who aren't sluts or gays steer clear of it out of fear of being labeled that way. So whose he only ones who will do it?.... Sluts and gays. If you call a slut a slut or a gay a gay, they have nothing to lose because they're like, "yeah, and"?

Again, as you know, that is not strictly true as money drives people into all sorts of undesirable proffessions. Ver few dancers work as prostitutes these days in Egypt because they can make more money dancing with less risks.

Its because there's that ambivalent feeling about dance to begin with and the fact that too many people, especially those gov't muck a mucks, do not see the dance as a legitimate expression of their culture or an art form. Its a bit of a sexy turn that brings in tourist dollars. But now that fundamentalism is on the rise, lets phase it out. If they did see it as an art, then there would be no need to have such a discussion because men would be free to dance and women from ordinary backgrounds who have an attraction to the arts would feel free to pursue it. Not just morally suspect women, or women who have no other economic prospects.

Tarik, it is almost impossible to have this dance perceived as an artform full stop. Look at the image, look at the place it holds in East and Western societies. 'Cabaret' is never thought of as an artform anywhere in the world.
Class has alot to do with this in all societies.

Once again, It says more about them. Truth be told, there are a lot of them who would love nothing better than if all this local culture would die, dry up, blow away, then rub the remaining population from head to foot in skin bleaching cream so they could take Egypt out of Africa and put it in Southern Europe instead where it really belongs!

I dont know about that either. Dancing has been in worse danger than it is now. Back in 1973 during the 6th October war all dancing and Zeffa's disappeared. they soon return because it is aprt of the Egyptian nature... they cant leave it alone, dancing is also part of the fabric of society.

Sarcasm aside, I think you are hitting the nail on the head here. Its not that men dancing with that part of the body is not part of the culture, nor that people wouldn't enjoy it. The question here is WHY is there a ban on it and the answer that you touch on here answers that. Its FEAR. Fear of being perceived a certain way. The next question to ask is why would they fear this and the answer I believe lies in their colonial past.

Whilst I blame the British for most things I would say many societies were macho orientated whislt we still lived in caves. The whole Hareem fantasy didnt grow out of the British imagination.. there was a real absis. Ozgen taught Hareem veil at Congress, I have no idea what it was about or why but he is turkish and most Turkish teachers I know draw heavily ion the Hreem past of Turkey. Greek dancers do the same in terms of discussing Chifte Telli and the Greek versions. I think most religions also remind everyone that God created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Eric.
So whilst I accept what you are saying to a degree, I think it goes way beyond anything the british wanted to impose.

Well, I think if the economy continues to tank, it will pretty much take care of the "problem" itself don't you think?:think:

I dread to think!

He's a novelty, but not so lone anymore.

He is outside of sharm, still no copycats on the scene beyond the Red Sea resorts.

If the artificial restrictions did not exist, there would be a lot more still and even better than him. If more guys felt they could gain a good income from it, respect as an artists and opportunities to travel, you would see a lot of guys lining up to get a chance.

I totally agree. Makinmg a living from dance and travelling is now one of the major ways of Egyptians escaping pverty but it is still the chosen few.
Of course men will want a bite of that cherry.

Years ago before Tito was on the scene, I said that if there was a tourist demand for male dancers in Egypt, you would see it and if it was successful, it would be imitated. This is exactly what has happened. How long it is allowed to remain before its suppressed by the right wing, reactionary establishment, who knows. One thing is clear though, the show is full every night and those who see it really love it.

Yes they do.. but as you know, he is careful about what he does. That is the distinction between some of the male dancers in the East and West.
Titi is clever and walks a very fine line and he always respects the culture from which he came from and never compromises his position within that. Very clever thinking. If he appeared in a 'belly dancing costume' then everything would collapse over night.

What would happen on a larger scale if things were normalized? I think that some people would love it, some people would hate it, most people wouldn't give a s**t because they couldn't afford to see such a show anyway. There were a lot of Egyptians and Gulf Arabs who went out of their way to see Tito. And even though Tito wasn't there, when I was, people were talking about him, as well as the two guys he's trained Mero and his brother Ali. I think when anyone has a certain amount of media exposure, (which Tito has gotten from youtube and the LBC performances), they automatically draw a crowd. Its the glamour factor.

Yes but there is also the novelty of 'can men actually do that??' I have seen Ali and Mero, they are pretty much a chip off the old bock. I am interested to see how this elvolves or will it just be like lots of Dina copycats we have on the western Belly dance scene?

The wedding went very well and the people loved it, (everyone wanted me to sit at their table afterwards so they could feed me):lol:. I did the Shisha dance, then my student did an Oriental solo and then we did a duet and drum solo. I didn't get to do my Oriental solo because the wedding started 2hrs late and after I did my dance the management wanted to end the entertainment and serve dinner. I had to fight to insist that my student went on, (they loved her).

To answer your second question, I don't think people really tried to categorize me. I was just "a male dancer" if you know what I mean. It was different to some degree than what the boy dancers did because I was the center of attention rather than part of a group. Other than that, in their eyes, there really wasn't anything that unique about me. I think the biggest surprise was that I wasn't Egyptian.

Thats good to hear and an example of Egyptian people loving dance too much to just let it go..

Exactly. I know where you're coming from and we are in total agreement. One thing that I've always been saying is that we have to realize that there is social dancing and professional dancing. Tis is a distinction that far to often is over looked, or not realized at all. Its very normal for men to dance in this fashion. The movements and aesthetic is to a great extent unisex. What is sex specific is the current context of professional dancing. Male dancing is quite normal in Egypt, but its the context that you have to specify when speaking about it. The reason I pay so much attention to it is because most people don't realize that that context, (social dance), exists at all. In fact, most of my debates have been trying to point out to people that it does in fact exist. As I am want to say, I just have the balls to put on a costume and do in public what many guys in Egypt do in their living room!:lol:

[/QUOTE]

Yes, and in some ways you face the same issues as female dancers in Egypt... enjoyed but never really respected for it.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Me neither but lets not forget this is not a purely 'personal' discussion we are having here, but refelcting on many aspects of the dance and the various perceptions from various cultural persepectives.

I have nothing against anyone or their points of view. However, when the individual I responded to contacts me in private to explain what their problem with me is and we've resolved between ourselves, I don't care to speak to them, nor have them speak to me. If I've done or said something wrong in the past where they are concerned, they need to let me know. If an apology is in order, I have no problem doing so, but personal attacks out of the clear blue??? Really?! Sorry to hijack the post, but your pm box is full.

Back to topic.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Caroline and Tarik not not you're looking for, but very interesting her opinion in Westerner dancer.

Come on, stop teasing us. Exactly what is she saying? Details man, we need details!

Not good I'll say but more importantly she is also saying the condition of belly dance in Egypt of gone down the drain.

Yeah. It confirms what all of us have been saying for a long time now.

As I was telling you ...





YouTube - Fifi Abdo In Hala Show p2 ???? ?? ???? ????

I could only imagine her opinion in male belly dancer, I doubt it she will shy from speaking her mind ... :lol:

Well this is what we are finding confusing. What Gypsy told me is that Fifi complimented Tito's dancing and she saw him perform in person. That show was in her honor. People were surprised that she said good things about him because they were expecting her to put him down, but she didn't. This is what I got from Gypsy who saw the show. She was actually the first to put that clip of Tito dancing on the LBC show on youtube. I think it would be very strange for her to say something good about Tito one second and something bad the next.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I have nothing against anyone or their points of view. However, when the individual I responded to contacts me in private to explain what their problem with me is and we've resolved between ourselves, I don't care to speak to them, nor have them speak to me. If I've done or said something wrong in the past where they are concerned, they need to let me know. If an apology is in order, I have no problem doing so, but personal attacks out of the clear blue??? Really?! Sorry to hijack the post, but your pm box is full.

Back to topic.

:think: Erm Tarik... you have lost me now!

What I said was in relation to this quote.. 'Manly, womanly...as long as its dancerly, I dont care'. by night dancer.

My PM box is now free to recieve!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Well this is what we are finding confusing. What Gypsy told me is that Fifi complimented Tito's dancing and she saw him perform in person. That show was in her honor. People were surprised that she said good things about him because they were expecting her to put him down, but she didn't. This is what I got from Gypsy who saw the show. She was actually the first to put that clip of Tito dancing on the LBC show on youtube. I think it would be very strange for her to say something good about Tito one second and something bad the next.

Well that is why we need the full details and the context of what was said about the programme in question, although that particular progarmme seems to be hard to find.

I can understand some of the Fifi clip but many many words I dont understand. I will have a listen and do my best but can only give the headlines so to speak.

I wonder what Fifi thought of Randa when she saw hjer at Congress? :think:

 

[Sita]

Randa: oh that's a good question Caroline.. I wonder..

I always feel frustration when I see her, like watching a film in another language I get the feeling I should be impressed but i just don't get it.
As a result I'm always curious to get other people thoughts.
Sita

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Randa: oh that's a good question Caroline.. I wonder..

I always feel frustration when I see her, like watching a film in another language I get the feeling I should be impressed but i just don't get it.
As a result I'm always curious to get other people thoughts.
Sita

I was a big fan to be honest but prefer Camelia again now.
Randa has a very new aggressive style which I am not so fussed on...ma'lish!

 

[lizaj]

Is Sharm becoming an outpost of Egypt where "anything goes" ( well at least what couldn't happen in Cairo/Luxor/Alexandria)? A ringfenced tourist destination where the unnacceptable is permitted to keep the currency flowing in. There are so many Russians and Westerners who are fed up with Meditteranean prices and bored by Cyprus et al and want "sodom and gomarrah" by the Red Sea.
Now not for one minute do I see Tito as a slice of immoral behaviour but he and male dancers are "beyond the Pale" and over some kind of border of "respectability" in Sharm, Just a thought?