Will I ever be acceptable?

[Aniseteph]

So I put this question to the debate forum.
Does it hurt you to know that your desire to learn about this dance and the wider culture is "disrespected" by some?

I refuse to have a very high opinion of anyone who disrespects another's honest desire to learn. Maybe if you only learn what you want to hear and then start spreading BS about you deserve disrespect, but just for wanting to learn...? IMO it is positively dangerous for society to give in to these types. rotest:

Yes I am a not so young middle class white woman who is maybe making a bit of an idiot of herself, but I've found something I love doing, it's my money, I could spend it on worse stuff like drink or gambling, I'm helping the economy, it keeps me fit (ish), I'm not scaring too many horses, there are plenty of people waaay worse than me making idiots of themselves and having fun so why should I go crawl under a rock?, I'm learning about much more than the dance, it's fun and social, it's a means to express myself in a small way, I might even inspire someone else to get involved one day (yay!) , I'm trying to do right by it... if someone wants to disrespect my wanting to do that, well good luck to 'em, and I hope it makes them very happy.

 

[Shanazel]

Does it hurt you to know that your desire to learn about this dance and the wider culture is "disrespected" by some?

No. That's their problem, not mine. As long as they stay out of my face, their opinion of me is negligible.

Is there a hint of "White guys can't dance"?

The same people who espouse this philosophy also probably expect black people to be able to moonwalk, the Welsh to be able to sing, Jewish folks to be able to make lots of money, and Puerto Ricans to be able to play baseball. Why take them seriously?

 

[elisemuse]

I'm a newcomer to belly dance and I can say that nothing has frustrated me more than trying to focus on the history while learning the basics. I agree that we need to pay attention to the history and understand what the singers are saying in the music in order to dance to it. However, it sucks the joy out of the dance for me right now to over-focus on that. I just want to dance, enjoy myself and show others what a beautiful dance style this is, even if I don't get into ME culture. I want to understand where the dance comes from, why it is danced, the cultural intricacies surrounding it...but I have to admit to being very shy. I probably won't get involved in ME culture beyond that, and that's okay. I agree completely with you when you express desire to show your own heritage through the dance. After all, we are not from the ME, so it might look a little strange that we are trying to be perfectly authentic when we don't live the culture. Kind of like those people from another country faking southern accents and dancing country line dancing. I would rather they just speak with their own accents. Otherwise it looks pretentious.

 

[elisemuse]

Also, this wanting to be authentic so much that it makes you not want to dance could easily become a follow-the-leader sort of thing. Like, since it is known that many Egyptians are losing their taste in belly dance, perhaps you shouldn't do it anymore, because that wouldn't be in line with ME culture. I just think there is a fine line where it can become obsessive and counter-productive rather than simply educational. We definitely need to remain educated especially when dancing to ME music, but I have encountered some people on these forums who seem to be so into being authentic that it makes me depressed when I read posts because how can we be perfectly authentic? We live in a culture that is very different from ME culture. You can't undo that...all you can do really is educate yourself and try to be as authentic as possible, leaving room for error so as not to drive yourself crazy.

 

[adiemus]

I keep returning to the word 'authentic' and mulling over it again and again. To me, authentic is about being honest, not trying to be a replica (that might be more like a fake!) but being straight up in terms of what I am trying to do with my dance. Some (not all) of this music evokes incredible emotion in me and if I can express this somehow, that's honesty. And I think that shines through whether one is an amateur having fun or a professional Star of Cairo. There are some performances of even the 'Greats' that leave me cold - the honesty is gone and what is left is a little robotic. Everyone has an 'off day'!

Re: putting on a performance , wearing the bedlah - as a student, provided I let people know that I am most definitely learning, I think 'performing' is part and parcel of learning. What I would be less happy about is if the performance was represented as something 'more' than an opportunity for students to show friends and family what they have been learning about. For example, I would feel fraudulent to ask people for money to see me on stage! After just over two years as a student, I seriously don't think I'm going to be worth paying good money for! On the other hand, we have few opportunities for hafla or more social dancing in NZ, so I may 'perform' as a student twice a year or even less often.

Eating grapes - well, I don't think I'll get to the end of the bunch of grapes before they turn into raisins - or perhaps even wine! but I will keep on learning as long as I'm alive, at least that's my intention. For if I'm not learning then I'm not living.

 

[Kharis]

I just think there is a fine line where it can become obsessive and counter-productive rather than simply educational.

I visit a few bellydance boards, and whilst i'm not referring this one specifically, it does seem to me that people are getting a tad obsessional as you say. They seem to try and outdo each other with their acumen and knowledge and woe betide anyone who stumbles into a conversation with wide eyed innocence/ignorance. And it's always the same core of people, who bolster each other up and obviously consider themselves an elite few. There is a fine line indeed. I'm all for education, and this board is better than most for that. It's a sad thing when someone new to the dance comes onto a board all bright eyed and bushy tailed, only to be shot down in flames by some self proclaimed know it all.

People have different levels of learning and understanding. I think there was a thread on Bhuz some time ago about teaching the history of the dance at beginner classes. Most people come to classes for fun and relaxation initially, they're not interested in much else to begin with. Ramming history and the ins and outs of rhythm patterns down their throats is not necessary. If they decide to stay on and progress into intermediate/advanced, that's a better place to roll out the education. And the bottom line is, a lot of folks just aren't interested in being educated to a higher level. They just want to dance.

 

[Kharis]

After all, we are not from the ME, so it might look a little strange that we are trying to be perfectly authentic when we don't live the culture. Kind of like those people from another country faking southern accents and dancing country line dancing. I would rather they just speak with their own accents. Otherwise it looks pretentious.

What IS pretentious, is when a dancer tries to emulate gestures and facial expressions that clearly belong on someone else's body/face. I can't stand the Dina-a-like Dancers who grimace their way through a performance with constipated expressions they feel are 'emotive'. I'm a great believer in being yourself when you dance, and this doesn't mean that you cannot have the minimum dance 'accent'. Let's face it, some of Cairo's successful dancers have not been necessarily Egyptian. Yasmina and Lorna Gow from the UK have both been successful performers out there in their own right. Both have their own style. I don't suppose for one moment that either would have stayed the course had they not been good enough, or 'authentic' enough.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I'm a newcomer to belly dance and I can say that nothing has frustrated me more than trying to focus on the history while learning the basics. I agree that we need to pay attention to the history and understand what the singers are saying in the music in order to dance to it. However, it sucks the joy out of the dance for me right now to over-focus on that.

I totally understand this. Engageing new students into the the reality of this dance is very difficult.
What do you consider the best way to appraoch this?

I just want to dance, enjoy myself and show others what a beautiful dance style this is, even if I don't get into ME culture.

The thing is, the beauty of this dance is not seperable from ME culture... abit like the chicken and egg.

There have been and continue to be various attempts at sperating the two but what you end up with is in my opinion not so beautiful.

I want to understand where the dance comes from, why it is danced, the cultural intricacies surrounding it...but I have to admit to being very shy. I probably won't get involved in ME culture beyond that, and that's okay.

Yes it is... but bare in mind that your mind will not filter everything and you will learn things about the ME over and above what you intended.
Look at this forum as an example.

I agree completely with you when you express desire to show your own heritage through the dance. After all, we are not from the ME, so it might look a little strange that we are trying to be perfectly authentic when we don't live the culture. Kind of like those people from another country faking southern accents and dancing country line dancing. I would rather they just speak with their own accents. Otherwise it looks pretentious.

Look, do you think it is anymore strange or pretentious than a Brit dressing up as a flaming Roman or a viking for a battle re-enactment??

It all comes down to how far people take it and how impossible they make it for themselves. there are so many fabulous dancers out there who have gardly stepped foot in the ME. but it never stopped them and they do not look pretentious or ridiculous... they look bloody fantastic!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Also, this wanting to be authentic so much that it makes you not want to dance could easily become a follow-the-leader sort of thing. Like, since it is known that many Egyptians are losing their taste in belly dance, perhaps you shouldn't do it anymore, because that wouldn't be in line with ME culture.

Ok, I think you raised good pionts in your last post but now it is going too dar off on a tangent which is not actually true.

Egyptians still dance socially and more so in lower classes. This will never stop.

I just think there is a fine line where it can become obsessive and counter-productive rather than simply educational. We definitely need to remain educated especially when dancing to ME music, but I have encountered some people on these forums who seem to be so into being authentic that it makes me depressed when I read posts because how can we be perfectly authentic?

Can you give examples? I hear this alot but dont actually read this anywhere... it seems like someone takes a piece of information, or an opinion they dont like and turn it into a blanket statement.

In turn I think there is something conspiring against ME dance these days. I hear alot of rumours and wingeing which has no real basis.

It is a bit like the rumour of 'cancelling Christma's in the UK.

As a city Council employee, I decided to look into this.

I found it to be a vicious anti-Islamic rumour which was started to instill fear and hatred. The words 'Seasons greetings' have been on Chritmas cards since before I was born and every city in the Uk turned on it's Christmas lights every single year.

Has anyone ever spent Christmas in Egypt? I have... and I had a Turkey dinner, a Christmas tree and everywhere had beautiful decorations and people everywhere wished me Merry Christmas.

The dance thing is the same, if we use the authentic argument then we wont have to be bothered tying this dance to it's culture or be bothered learning the real thing.

We live in a culture that is very different from ME culture.

It is really not so different as you might imagine. People are people everywhere.

You can't undo that...all you can do really is educate yourself and try to be as authentic as possible, leaving room for error so as not to drive yourself crazy.

And that i totally agree with.

 

[lizaj]

Also, this wanting to be authentic so much that it makes you not want to dance could easily become a follow-the-leader sort of thing. Like, since it is known that many Egyptians are losing their taste in belly dance, perhaps you shouldn't do it anymore, because that wouldn't be in line with ME culture. I just think there is a fine line where it can become obsessive and counter-productive rather than simply educational. We definitely need to remain educated especially when dancing to ME music, but I have encountered some people on these forums who seem to be so into being authentic that it makes me depressed when I read posts because how can we be perfectly authentic? We live in a culture that is very different from ME culture. You can't undo that...all you can do really is educate yourself and try to be as authentic as possible, leaving room for error so as not to drive yourself crazy.

Should it then be right to say I shouldn't care what someone from the ME thinks of my doing "their " dance? Admittedly if they are scathing and dismissive well I can return the favour. BUT should we care about offendng? Every so often I see MEers at our halfas and they are always courteous in their response but I sometime wonder what they make of "Goth" Bellydance, ATS routines, Burley/Fusion. I'm sure some will find it all good fun but we go and attach the label belly dance to what we do and it must get confusing for someone who has been brought up on Samia Gamal Soheir Zaki and Nagwa
Faoud .:shok:
This isn't the main thrust of what I am saying because whenever I have danced in the company of Egyptians or other MEers or North Africa, they have never given me negative vibes (then again they may be just polite:think. What irks me often is the comments of those within our belly dance community - people who are saying I am an Arab, I am a Turk I can do this and you can forget it .."you have no experience of our culture" and even when you try to appreciate it...you are still dismissed.
And again in answer to you. I do not go along to a belly dance class and launch into a lecture on the Near east and its' culture. I drop snippets in at appropriate moments..I play beledi..I explain the word ...I mention the instruments another week etc etc.
But you start English country dancing, you will learn about English folklore (such as remains). Dear God, I even had to explain to a bemused English man (who must live on another planet) what the Orange Lodge March was on parade in my town last Saturday.
I admit I might ,as an historian be keener than most to learn about the development and background of this dance but hey, isn't that presumptive of me to assume others who are not might not be just as interested. I will not have low expectations of a class of students. You can have fun and learn quite serious aspects at the same time.

 

[Kharis]

What irks me often is the comments of those within our belly dance community - people who are saying I am an Arab, I am a Turk I can do this and you can forget it .."you have no experience of our culture" and even when you try to appreciate it...you are still dismissed.

And why do you suppose this is? An iddy widdy bit of the old sour grapes is what. Oh, I 'm so sick of the insecurities attached to this dance. I've danced for lots of ME folk and you've only got to look at their faces to see they're having a good time and enjoying themselves. If someone inside the dance community has an issue with this it doesn't alter the glaring fact that they are insecure no matter their lineage.

 

[cathy]

deleted

 

[Aniseteph]

And why do you suppose this is? An iddy widdy bit of the old sour grapes is what. Oh, I 'm so sick of the insecurities attached to this dance. I've danced for lots of ME folk and you've only got to look at their faces to see they're having a good time and enjoying themselves. If someone inside the dance community has an issue with this it doesn't alter the glaring fact that they are insecure no matter their lineage.

:clap: Playing the "in my blood" card in the dance community usually makes me think someone has a chip on their shoulder. If you are a good dancer/teacher why not let that speak for itself?

 

[khanjar]

Look, do you think it is anymore strange or pretentious than a Brit dressing up as a flaming Roman or a viking for a battle re-enactment??

It all comes down to how far people take it and how impossible they make it for themselves. there are so many fabulous dancers out there who have gardly stepped foot in the ME. but it never stopped them and they do not look pretentious or ridiculous... they look bloody fantastic!

Interesting you should say that, because I used to be involved in battle re- enactment, and there were people in that, that liked to claim they are a true celt, as they have studied their written ancestry, and it is celt through and through. These people never realised history and by that ancestry was at one time an oral tradition, not a written tradition and maybe even lineage below that of king was irrelevant, as people are given merit on their actions, not where their greatest ancestor was born.

Then there were others who changed their name to something celtic sounding and there were others who adopted a pagan belief in a hope to validify their right to be a celtic battle re-enactor Those that changed their belief to pagan, one could tell what books they read and where they got their belief, as what was said was straight from the ''Golden Bough'' or Anne Ross's theories. What I got from all my people watching was a person's yearning to identify with something, to validify what they enjoyed doing, as if they felt what they did was alien to them but they just had to belong, belong to something. It just so happened, Celtia reached out to them, as it does with so many in these isles. Maybe the truth of it all is, we of Britain and maybe the US, NZ, OZ are schooled in lineage and it's importance, we ain't nothing unless we know where we come from. This not only goes for the indigenous Brits, but those others born in Britain whose ancestors came from abroad, often, is is the obvious characteristics of , colour and features that sets the mind questing for an identity, an identity the so called united Kingdom denied us. All united meant was one or other country, sometimes some together did not attack wealthy England, as was what the celts of old did with their raiding and redistribution of wealth attempts, never mind the insane need, compulsion for a scrap. Scousers come to mind here thinking of scrapping for the fun of it.

Anyway, I digressed as usual, but knowing what I observed of the battle re-enactors, of which I was one, in a Iron age living history group named after the celtic god of thunder, yeah, we went down the same routes as others I observed and came to understand what the rise in battle re-enactor interest was really about, I understood most Brits seek an identity in a world of individuals. The same I believe applies to BD, it is not our culture, well, maybe not that of the majority, unless you have Rom or Gypo in your family, but it is debateable if BD was with them at one time, but the calling to ME dance is one thing, but it means nothing, it is just it appeals to one, and is no indication of connected ancestry, maybe it is like then weekend warrior brigade, a search for identity to validate what they do. Maybe this is in reality, an insecurity.

But as to the transferring of cultural activities to others of different cultures, my answer to that is, why the hell not, for many through history have done the same to whoever wanted to be included. Maybe even the future history of BD might be that of western countries, if it is that religious fervour becomes so great as to irradicate BD in the countries it is now. Don't laugh, for it has happened before. Maybe in the future the west will educate the ME in a dance form that came from them so long ago, when they wake up from their slumber. Just look at history, and what has been lost, world communication of today has the ability to keep the essence for whoever wants to learn.

BD is not culturaly ours of the west, but we can admire it, and learn it, become on a par with those of the originating countries, or even better them, but who wants to be the best, a difficult and stressful position to keep in a life to be enjoyed.

As to music, my perspective is it is instrumental music that holds the power, the addition of lyrics is there to explain what is not obvious to many, or in the case of an old tune, an artists need to be associated with the greatness of another time, their hope, the music will carry their lyrics. Listen to the beauty of water babbling in a woodland stream, do you need someone to interpret what is happening in their perspective, or are you capable of discerning that for yourself in a perspective that is personal to you. Music, whatever the culture, as human, we can feel the human that made the music, alien instruments perhaps,but the feeling is there, perhaps in another language, but, the meaning gets across.

Snobbery via identity, those that believe they know what they are against those that seek to find what they are. Get it, we are all the same, we are humans, anything that comes from human can be understood by human, music, the language that crosses time and culture.

That, is what Spanish red wine from the Andalusian region does, my apologies.

 

[adiemus]

Give me some of that spanish red, I think it would do me good!!!
I can't quite understand how someone would want to learn a dance form without wanting to know something of the culture in which it is embedded! Or am I just a bit of a nutter?

I mean, with every language course you learn about the culture, not just the words, and in dance, the culture is just as important! I find myself mystified by people who simply want to learn the movements as if belly dance is some sort of bellyrobics...

The music itself is from a culture that is different - and learning about the structure of the music, and the names for various rythms can only help express the music in our bodies more effectively, and isn't that what ME dance is about? the movement expressing the music?

 

[masrawy]

if you get lucky ..

Give me some of that spanish red, I think it would do me good!!!
I can't quite understand how someone would want to learn a dance form without wanting to know something of the culture in which it is embedded! Or am I just a bit of a nutter?

I mean, with every language course you learn about the culture, not just the words, and in dance, the culture is just as important! I find myself mystified by people who simply want to learn the movements as if belly dance is some sort of bellyrobics...

The music itself is from a culture that is different - and learning about the structure of the music, and the names for various rythms can only help express the music in our bodies more effectively, and isn't that what ME dance is about? the movement expressing the music?

I agree with this thought ... you really can't separate the dance from the culture. Even the words and how it's said, it makes a difference.

BTW "Toult el 3oumr tbalg el amal" is sarcastic and usually it means why it takes you so long to do something. :shok:
　
I like your wine analogy .. it takes time for it to reach its prime not to mention the quality of the grapes makes a huge difference.

The Egyptian/Arab dancer reachs her prime at about the age of 20 or 22 and she still have good shelf life ahead of her. On the other hand, take a bottle of wine already on the shelve ... God knows what kind of grapes or whose the winemaker!! Put it in your cellar for another 20 or 22 years .. don't expect to get other than good vinegar be then .. if you get lucky.

 

[Shanazel]

Yes it is... but bare in mind that your mind will not filter everything and you will learn things about the ME over and above what you intended.

Now, there is an astute comment! Thanks, Caroline. It is amazing what our brains take in despite our efforts to control osmosis.

 

[Shashi]

Authencity

In reply to Kharis comment about an elite group of people who seem to want to dictate to everyone what they believe is authenic. From my experience, not only on several dance discussion blogs, but also in real life more times than not this attitude comes from older dancers. I think they feel that they have spent years learning the dance and the culture and they have a right to dictate to everyone. They also have a hard time seeing this dance changing and evolving. The problem is alot of them come across as nasty and condescending, instead or nurturing and factual, especially to younger dancers and dancers who do not agree with their opinions. I really believe they should write an authenic dance history book, well documented with the undisputed facts, which serious dancers could purchase if they were so inclined. Otherwise, unless asked they should keep their opinions to themselves. Having personal experience with this type of attitude, they do more to discourage dancers and show themselves as old sour people who are still trying to somehow be relevant since they are no longer young or beautiful. I'm glad I didn't start bellydancing until I was 48 years old. I am now 56 and have been dancing alot since the very beginning. I did leave my first teacher because she was one of those older, sour dancers and took the fun out of dancing. Some beginning dancers left and never returned to learning dance. Myself, I am much more hard headed and decided she was the problem and I found another teacher who is not like that. I refuse to pay for classes or workshops from someone with that attitude. I love the dance and I love to perform and I don't care what anyone thinks as to whether I am authenic or not. I'm also glad that I wasn't one of those young, beautiful dancers who are now old or fat and having a case of sour grapes (speaking of eating grapes) about it. My present teacher is 51 years old and has been dancing 30 years. She teaches Egyptian style, but I dance many other styles and do not feel that only Egyptian Oriental is the authenic style. I believe that bellydance is a large tent and it is an art form and encompasses many cultures, emotions and dance forms. I do believe in always trying to grow and learn. I believe you should learn to be your authenic self and if you are performing your dancing should be interesting and as technically good as you can be. Why shouldn't one do what they enjoy in life? Why should one care so much about what someone else thinks, especially when they are negative, critical and have some inner insecurity or problem themselves? After all in 100 years, none of us will be here and who will remember that we danced however we did or wherever we did. I will not let anyone rain on my parade, I don't care how elitist they are.

 

[adiemus]

'Toult el 3oumr tbalg el amal' reminds me of the kind of thing I say to myself when it takes me forever to recognise that I dooooo have to learn one thing at a time... a bit like 'when will I ever learn!' or, what do you mean, you need to get a round tuit?!!

I'm not so sure that the attitude thing is simply about older dancers looking down on younger dancers with new ideas - some of my very best teachers in things other than bellydance (my only MED teacher is Kashmir!) have been wise, humble, generous, and more than willing to innovate and encourage - in my experience it's been much more about people who don't feel entirely solid in their own skill or feel threatened by others that snipe. People who seem to think you need to be 'in' the club or 'out' of the club, to be 'OK'.

And there is a big difference between simply informing people that you think its important to learn the basics first before 'fusing' MED with any other dance form (and generate some wisdom and knowledge of the history and background of the dance), and those who snipe at younger dancers because they 'break the rules'.

'Authenticity' is important. There does need to be some adherence to the spirit or essential soul of the dance in order for it to be ME. Otherwise it simply becomes a nod to the original 'oh now we have a hip lift, hear the mizmar, dom tek - and that must be ME dance', and all the other bits like Hawaiian hand/arm movements, Flamenco foot stamping, Maori poi, get mishmashed together to form a whitebread, bland and wholly uninspiring melange. The unique elements of all of the 'fusions' get lost and we all gradually lose touch with what made those dance forms so intriguing in the beginning.

I just wish I'd had the knowledge to get on and eat those darned grapes a whole lot earlier - so maybe I could inspire others to learn more, be more immersed, before the flavour of this specific bunch of grapes gets lost.

 

[elisemuse]

I visit a few bellydance boards, and whilst i'm not referring this one specifically, it does seem to me that people are getting a tad obsessional as you say. They seem to try and outdo each other with their acumen and knowledge and woe betide anyone who stumbles into a conversation with wide eyed innocence/ignorance. And it's always the same core of people, who bolster each other up and obviously consider themselves an elite few. There is a fine line indeed. I'm all for education, and this board is better than most for that. It's a sad thing when someone new to the dance comes onto a board all bright eyed and bushy tailed, only to be shot down in flames by some self proclaimed know it all.

People have different levels of learning and understanding. I think there was a thread on Bhuz some time ago about teaching the history of the dance at beginner classes. Most people come to classes for fun and relaxation initially, they're not interested in much else to begin with. Ramming history and the ins and outs of rhythm patterns down their throats is not necessary. If they decide to stay on and progress into intermediate/advanced, that's a better place to roll out the education. And the bottom line is, a lot of folks just aren't interested in being educated to a higher level. They just want to dance.

Thank you. You are the first person I have run into on a belly dance discussion board who has agreed with me on this matter. You state it beautifully.