posture - pelvis alignment

[hede]

Hello everyone,

please bear with me if someone has asked this before (just give me the thread!) -

I've been watching a lot of dvd's lately (instructional and performance) and there seem to be two distinct styles of 'posture', even if its a very subtle difference.

One way is to lengthen the lower back and although not actually 'tuck', it does straighten out some of the natural lumbar curve. Like rachel brice, other tribal fusions, Ansuya (I think?). And I think this is how I dance.

The other way is to maintain the natural curve in the lower back (like original ATS, Ava Flemming...can't think of others right now). Which to me looks quite different. It creates a small crease in the side of the stomach and the hips (to me) are noticeably tilted slightly so that vertical movements aren't truly vertical but slightly aimed forward (in the line of the angle of the pelvis).

Is this something that other bellydancers notice? Is there a general preference or is one just a different look from the other?

apologies if I'm completely mad(!)
Hede

 

[Samira bint Aya]

Almost every instructor that I have come across teaches the “lengthened lower back” posture as correct for protecting your lower back, and necessary for better control while dancing.

Perhaps the difference you are observing is due to some dancers wearing high heels? Could this be the case? Dancing on heels creates quite a different look to some of the pelvic movements..

 

[Kharis]

Hello everyone,

please bear with me if someone has asked this before (just give me the thread!) -

I've been watching a lot of dvd's lately (instructional and performance) and there seem to be two distinct styles of 'posture', even if its a very subtle difference.

One way is to lengthen the lower back and although not actually 'tuck', it does straighten out some of the natural lumbar curve. Like rachel brice, other tribal fusions, Ansuya (I think?). And I think this is how I dance.

The other way is to maintain the natural curve in the lower back (like original ATS, Ava Flemming...can't think of others right now). Which to me looks quite different. It creates a small crease in the side of the stomach and the hips (to me) are noticeably tilted slightly so that vertical movements aren't truly vertical but slightly aimed forward (in the line of the angle of the pelvis).

Is this something that other bellydancers notice? Is there a general preference or is one just a different look from the other?

apologies if I'm completely mad(!)
Hede

I'm a great believer in dancing with a lifted ribcage. I rarely tuck or teach a tuck as I've found this produces some very odd postures. Certain moves require a bit of a tuck, but you can't tuck constantly when you dance. Raising the ribcage frees up the whole hip area, abdominal area and lengthens the spine. Watch all the top dancers and you'll see this rib cage posture...it's nearly always elevated. Ballet dancers do it too.

 

[Kashmir]

I teach with a neutral pelvis (ie the position where the pelvis is neither tilted neither forward or back. This is the optimal position for movement - and safer on the lower back. In neutral the anterior hip bone is slightly lower than the posterior superior iliac spine)

For some people that will be their natural posture - which is great. For those who naturally tilt their pelvis back they will need to learn to correctly align it - by lifting at the front - not tucking at the back. The look can end up similar but if you think "tuck" and use your glutes to do it you lose your ability to dance!

Unfortunately, for those with lordosis (duck butt) - their lower abs tend to be very weak so they have great difficulty in lengthening their back by using them - so they often resort to tucking.

 

[RanyaRenee]

For those who naturally tilt their pelvis back they will need to learn to correctly align it - by lifting at the front - not tucking at the back.

I agree with Kashmir that this instruction can help people a lot who have too much lower back curve (exaggerated lordosis)--by putting the focus on the lower abs and pelvic muscles, and then the glutes of course will still engage but not as much as if you "tuck".

Lately I've been taking private sessions with a really great Pilates instructor, and discovering some other postural positions for the pelvis--subtle differences, like imagining the pubic bones moving away from the rib cage, which can create a little more lordosis than I had been doing lately. I'm kind of interested to see how it affects the rest of my muscles there. We all, I think, find patterns that work for us for certain things, but it's kind of cool to change it up, try something new, and see what it affects. Finding balance between all the muscles and joints is an endless process, worth re-examining again and again. There is not really one right way, I feel. Over time something that worked and has been comfortable may need to shift to the next concept that someone's body needs. I think this is one reason why people may resonate with different teachers more than others--the teacher may be working with a posture/pattern of muscle usage that "feels right" to the student... it may be what they need now in their physical journey.

 

[shiradotnet]

Instead of using the word "tuck" to verbalize posture, I ask my students to engage their ab muscles "to protect your back", and I ask them to think of their tailbone as really, really heavy, but keeping the glutes relaxed.

That's what i teach as the "default" position, but of course there are many moves that require the abs to temporarily relax, and there are moves that require engaging the glutes. So the "default position" is just that, a default position. You vary away from it to create certain effects, then return to it.

 

[adiemus]

My only concern about considering using abs to 'protect the back' is that they actually don't have that role, and both abs and extensors need to work well to support and be flexible enough for the back to move normally.
The role of abdominal strength/support in preventing back pain is over-stated and not supported by the literature on back pain - although you'll find physiotherapists and pilates instructors around the world will disagree with me! But if you're comfortable reviewing scientific literature and head to Cochrane reviews, you'll find it there...

 

[Samira bint Aya]

Personally, I “tuck” by using the psoas. I find that it also lifts the ribcage, and it helps me with balance. This is something I learned in yoga. (Being that my belly dance teacher lives in Athens and I live on an island, I am often left to my own devices).

Since this thread has attracted the more experienced teachers and dancers, I thought I might ask your opinions on this method of “tucking”? :think:

(Hede, sorry for hijacking your thread here…)

My teacher also commented that I tend to have a backwards tilt, which I am trying to correct, but the “tits over toes” posture of Egyptian style does not work for me at all!

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

The concept of using the psoas drives me crazy! I'm actually fairly sure that was the muscle I used during ballet to "lengthen the back" as directed, but when I get out my anatomy book and actually look at where the psoas attaches, I get confused all over again. Same when people say to use the low abs -- I don't think I do it right.

I can put my pelvis in the "Duck Butt" position and alternately pull in and push out my low abs, and it isn't changing the orientation of my pelvis one bit. So am I not actually engaging the low abs? Or am I controlling the tilt of the pelvis by engaging the low back muscles or this mysterious psoas?

What does it feel like to "pull" your psoas? If you're really exercising it hard, will you be sore the next day in the area where you would have a C-section, or right above and to the side of the pubic bone?

Ava Fleming's "Hips" dvd from IAMED was the first time I actually heard an instructor say "don't pull in with your abs to align the pelvis." The way she described it, it sounded more like you were using the front of the thigh, or the movement generated from the place where your leg and torso meet. ???

 

[shiradotnet]

My only concern about considering using abs to 'protect the back' is that they actually don't have that role, and both abs and extensors need to work well to support and be flexible enough for the back to move normally.
The role of abdominal strength/support in preventing back pain is over-stated and not supported by the literature on back pain - although you'll find physiotherapists and pilates instructors around the world will disagree with me! But if you're comfortable reviewing scientific literature and head to Cochrane reviews, you'll find it there...

Hmmm, I see your point, but in my experience in working with students, a lot of them have very weak abs, and therefore try to use their backs to do all the work of belly dancing. While I'd agree that the back muscles have an important role to play in producing belly dance moves, I find it necessary to bring students' focus to the front of their torsos to develop those muscles. When I say "protect the back", what I really mean is "build some strength in the front of your body to balance waht you already have in the back".

 

[Shanazel]

I tell my students to pull their belly buttons toward their spines while allowing their pelvises to tip up just enough to pull their spine straight in back. Makes sense with a demonstration.

 

[Kashmir]

Ava Fleming's "Hips" dvd from IAMED was the first time I actually heard an instructor say "don't pull in with your abs to align the pelvis." The way she described it, it sounded more like you were using the front of the thigh, or the movement generated from the place where your leg and torso meet. ???

Certainly not "in" - up. Like pulling up a fly zip. I think it is the pyramidis - but I don't have my reference books on hand and have a sporodic memory.

 

[Samira bint Aya]

What does it feel like to "pull" your psoas? If you're really exercising it hard, will you be sore the next day in the area where you would have a C-section, or right above and to the side of the pubic bone?

Ava Fleming's "Hips" dvd from IAMED was the first time I actually heard an instructor say "don't pull in with your abs to align the pelvis." The way she described it, it sounded more like you were using the front of the thigh, or the movement generated from the place where your leg and torso meet. ???

Aziyade, Oh, you have so many questions that I am sorry, I can not answer… the only thing I can say is that when I used to exercise hard and pull this muscle, I was sore to the side of the pubic bone.

By all means I am not an expert so I am only sharing my personal experience.

I don’t have Ava Fleming's "Hips" so I don’t have an opinion, but after reading Kashmir’s response I went online to research the pyramidis, and I found that apparently some 20% of people are missing these muscles and some of us may have them on only one side!

This made me think that perhaps we are all built slightly differently, and different things make sense for our bodies… I was thinking that ballet - as you mentioned Aziyade - short of forces the body into unnatural poses, whereas bellydance uses the body’s natural movements, so everyone has a more “individualised” way of doing things.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Aziyade, Oh, you have so many questions that I am sorry, I can not answer… the only thing I can say is that when I used to exercise hard and pull this muscle, I was sore to the side of the pubic bone.

No -- this helps a lot!! When I pull (for example) my right hip backwards and to the left -- like pulling it diagonally through my body -- I feel the tension on the inside of the lower right iliac crest, so I think that must be the muscle we're talking about.

Ranya's Baladi dvd talks about the feeling of pulling through your body -- the yellow rope image -- and when I do that I feel the tension in the space somewhere between the navel and the bottom of the pubis. I consider that generally just the low ab area, since I haven't been able to isolate more than one contraction in that area.


Sorry to thread hijack, but I'm still trying to identify how many possible areas of "isolation" in the ab muscles we can achieve. I think I have 3, but I know some people who say they have 4, so I'm always working to find two separate points of isolation in the low abs. It's also weird to know that some people have missing muscles!

 

[hede]

thanks everyone for the replies and thread hijacking is extremely interesting...

I've realised the upper body does make a huge difference (hence the distinctive ATS posture)...and I need to watch Ava's posture instruction again. Ansuya definitely says to lengthen and I'm fairly sure ava says to maintain natural curve. And I really see a difference between different professional dancers on compilation/performance dvds...

My friend is a physio and she checked my back for me. Apparently the muscles either side of the spine in my very lower back (around the lumbar curve) have been on holidays for a long time, and she has given me some exercises to strengthen them. I'm not an expert, just been reading a lot of anatomy and phsyiology books lately - but I doubt some people are truly missing any muscles. More likely some muscles haven't been working properly due to poor posture (like me) and are next to useless...so baby steps to get them 'activated' again and then on to strengthening...

I'm guessing that some teachers get used to working with a certain type of student (with regards to fitness) and modify instructions to suit students rather than to the 'ideal' if that makes any sense. In ballet they 'turn out' because that allows for a greater extension and lift of the leg (used in yoga too) - but getting someone who has never done it, is inflexible or unfit may result in exessive turn of the foot, rather than the hip, stressing the knees. So the instruction to turn out is avoided. - So is the instruction to maintain a natural curve usually avoided because a large number of students don't have the strength in the lower back to support it?..

sorry for the long post...still wondering about it. maybe it's just that there is no codified system of teaching in bellydancing as there is in other dances, so everyone has gone off on their own so to speak...

 

[hede]

for your interest (or not!) ...I just got the dvd that goes with the book stretching and flexibility (great book, has a ton of good exercises written by a guy that only became flexible as an adult after years of trying! So there is hope for me...)

anyway...he does the pilates exercise where you lie on your stomach and alternate lifting opposite arms and legs, a bit like swimming...he's talking for a bit and then talks about the importance of neutral spine. He has the model get on all fours and put a thin bamboo pole along her back so you can clearly see the curves of the neutral spine. Then asking her to lift one leg with the glutes (as in the exercise) he shows how immediately how the lumbar curve deepens and instructs to pull in the stomach to return to the neutral spine, but this still has it's slight curve. I don't if what I've said is completely clear (sorry!) but I'm starting to understand why Ava says to maintain the curve, even though 'bracing' the stomach/core muscles (can't remember her exact words).

not sure if this is helpful to anyone...but I feel like things are becoming clearer as I try to answer my own questions

 

[Mara2]

The way I was taught, and teach, is to pretend like you're going to sit down. This puts much weight on the fronts of the thighs, as Aziyade mentioned in her post.

 

[Shara]

technically, to protect the back, proper alignment during all movement is what you want to have. For any dance move, there is a "most stable" position to be in, and that should be something we strive for. The biggest problem is that most people have very little self awareness. In my opinion, the spine should be in the neutral position, but many of your students will not know what neutral position is and do not stand in a neutral position naturally. There are also students that will need to use a form of tuck to do the dance safely due to previous injury. We need to be flexible and aware that injuries will affect the way our students need to move and realize that when we teach them to be in the most stable position for each move that they will be safer.